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Dead Horse Poll - Seven Rounds in the Magazine?


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Ladies and gentlemen,

Remember, IF we were to begin to allow 7 rounds in magazines, not every stage has to be 7 rounds. Some stages could be 7 and some could be 5.

Would it cause some people confusion loading the mags? Yes. But this is a much more a thinking game than CAS. One of the reasons I like WBAS more than CAS right now is every single thing isn't spoon fed to me like it has come in some CAS matches.

Just my opinion.

BD

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Nevada sweep revisited

 

So I thought of a better way to do this shortly after posting that I think embraces our WBAS culture.

 

5 (or 4)target Nevada sweep for 14 shots:

 

same as any other but put one target as a hostage type. Make the first or last shot a hostage type shot and proceed as normal. Alternatively you provide one target closer, or farther to absorb the remaining (non - symmetrical rounds) it all works out. Plus it is challenging to transition from fast sweep to precision shot, or vise-versa.  Wbas is all about a challenge, right!  :)

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Everyone has posted real good ideas on target presentation.  I have given it a lot of thought for 7 rd Mag stages for target presentation and it is not a big issue to change over.  Boggus has a real good point all stages may not have 7 rounds per Mag some could 5 and some stages may have 5 & 7 mags togetgher.  Please do not misconstrue what Boggus and I  have posted on this wire as the current direction for SASS Wild Bunch.  It is strictly my observation.  With that said one fact that will not change is the number of Magazines used in each stage.
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"one fact that will not change is the number of Magazines used"

Fred, Im not sure I understand exactly why that is ??

 

Sure, most people could usually shoot three 7 round mags

a little faster than they could shoot four 5 round mags. because of one less reload,

but exactly why is that perceived to be a problem by SASS/WBAS ????????????????

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Sam the number of magazines currently used in WB matchs are from 4 to 6 mag ( 5 round mags)used per stage.  If the rules at some point in the future change to 7 rds per mag the number of magazines used per stage will stay the same.  We will see this at our monthlys and our state match, National and World Championships.  This was stated in my early post on this thread.
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Fred,

I think you're missing my point.

 

I'm pretty sure that No Where in the Rules it states that a minimum of 4 mags must be used.

In fact in the Match Directors Guide it states that the "average" pistol round count should be 15 to 25.

That Clearly indicates to me that using 3 mags on a stage is perfectly acceptable.

 

So I fail to see why using 3 mags w/ 7 rounds each for a total pistol count of 21 is an issue........

 

Other than some people are just stubborn  ;)

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Sam you are missing the point here the match directors me included will continue to use 4 to 6 mags a stage.  At some point in the distance future if the round count per magazine goes to 7 you will be shooting more 1911 rounds down range. For me thats great I like shooting the 1911.  The rule states based on 5 per magazine.  Let me say this Sam do not assume the round count recommendation, remember in the rule it is Only a Recommendation, will stay the same if the mag round count goes to 7.  Our local monthly and State match will continue to utilize 4 to 6 mag changes per stage.  You will not see a change at the National or EOT with Mag changes.  They will continue to use 4 to 6 or 7 mags per stage.  The Wild Bunch Matches held around the county shoot a lot of 1911.  Go to a match put on by Wild Bodie Tom and see how many mag changes you make in his match. WBT puts on a great Match
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Fred, I dont think its me thats missing the point.

 

As J Frank said,

it is the person that's writing the stage that determines the round count.

There is no where in the rules that says you must have 4 or more mags per stage.

 

So for you to say that it is a given that the round count MUST go up dramatically

if we start shooting 7 rounds per mag.....  is simply incorrect.

 

 

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I would prefer the 7 round mag.  It doesn't have to increase round counts per stage or match.  And dare I say, we don't have to think in terms of "sweeps" either, or all steel targets.  Paper IPSC targets scored like IMGA 3gun with two hits anywhere in the perforation, or one A hit....there are other possibilities....if we want to be separated from cowboy with a 1911.

 

Some stages just pistol, some pistol shotgun, etc, mix it up.

 

Just thinkin'.....for our next match.

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BD, 10 round wb pistol :'( that's just sad!  talking about all the above, JFN apparently the death of the horse was greatly exaggerated ;) because it has over 1700 hits and 95+ responses . I am one of the shooters that  does not care if the game is played with five or seven.  I don't see the argument of attracting new shooters by loading 2 more rounds in a mag because when you go to IDPA or 3gun games etc. the 1911's are running 9 rounds c&l at start and the poly double stacks are stoked with 15 + rounds or whatever and shooting in a different category for esp or sp etc. I also wonder if rules are changed to draw new shooters will we lose some that we have now?  I often see something stated like " in the real world we shoot from C&L so I'm not going to play this game until you ( fill this in with whatever you want) so it mimics my version of the "real world". the problem with this is the goal posts are a moving target..........excuses, excuses and more  EXCUSES! ;D I think wild bunch should be shown by it's strengths not weaknesses.  we are a shooting competition  not a tactical match ,not a one gun idpa based match. we are here to have fun . not to train for a gunfight. there are a lot of great places to receive that type of training. we master 3 guns. all on the same stage. whenever changes are made it needs to be for what WE want as wild bunch shooters, not for what we think some one we don't know that has never shot a wild bunch match might want. if seven rounds were ever to see light I would want it to be for more shooting not the same or less. the pistol to me is the star of the show. the shotgun is the costar and the rifle is an extra for variety. I like shooting the pistol a lot so naturally I want a lot of pistol shooting. I would gladly trade a few rifle rounds for more pistol rounds if I had to make a choice. I don't see any  problems with seven as far as target presentation or safety or round count. just about everyone I know that shoots wild bunch loads there own ammo and plenty of it.  wild bunch is the best gun game ever played! it's also the biggest  secret never told. if we can all get the word out to various disciplines WB will grow.    dusty boddams
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Well, lets get real. There are more guns sold with legal length "eight" rounders every day now.

Its not 5 or 7 to me. Its the choice to be able to use up to what ya can fit in the mag, as far as the magazine rule/convention is. If ya are only comfortable with 5 for whatever reason, then "changing" a rule to evoke 7 can become an issue. That is NOT the change/interpretation/ whatever that needs to occur, if any. Heck, we ran 15 mags of seven on one stage. Plan on doing 20. We loke to shoot..........

    Extra mags are staged, and loaners always available. So doesn't really matter....... Methinks I will do a stage next month, I will supply the mags as well, that every mag has "ONE" round..... 20 pistol only stage. THAT should quiet the folks that wanna have reloads with five rounders, as opposed to dropping a reload every now and then, if it goes to seven. 

  It is basically a committee/match director, say no matter what. Options to me and a few I know, are a good thing. There is a way to get through a stage no matter how it is set up regardless......

Okay, here we go.

  And I concur. Quite the postings for a "poll" stage.... LOL

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Yeah, Dusty. Its a great club!! A great range!! Great people but most stages are 10-10-4, left to right. Write something like a 35 round pistol stage and they start having coronaries!! Write a stage with some shooter choice to it and they really don't know what to do.

We are growing on them, though. They really are getting better. We had a really good WBAS match Saturday and there was a stage that had some variety to it.

BD

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BD, 10 round wb pistol :'( that's just sad!  talking about all the above, JFN apparently the death of the horse was greatly exaggerated ;) because it has over 1700 hits and 95+ responses . I am one of the shooters that  does not care if the game is played with five or seven.  I don't see the argument of attracting new shooters by loading 2 more rounds in a mag because when you go to IDPA or 3gun games etc. the 1911's are running 9 rounds c&l at start and the poly double stacks are stoked with 15 + rounds or whatever and shooting in a different category for esp or sp etc. I also wonder if rules are changed to draw new shooters will we lose some that we have now?  I often see something stated like " in the real world we shoot from C&L so I'm not going to play this game until you ( fill this in with whatever you want) so it mimics my version of the "real world". the problem with this is the goal posts are a moving target..........excuses, excuses and more  EXCUSES! ;D I think wild bunch should be shown by it's strengths not weaknesses.  we are a shooting competition  not a tactical match ,not a one gun idpa based match. we are here to have fun . not to train for a gunfight. there are a lot of great places to receive that type of training. we master 3 guns. all on the same stage. whenever changes are made it needs to be for what WE want as wild bunch shooters, not for what we think some one we don't know that has never shot a wild bunch match might want. if seven rounds were ever to see light I would want it to be for more shooting not the same or less. the pistol to me is the star of the show. the shotgun is the costar and the rifle is an extra for variety. I like shooting the pistol a lot so naturally I want a lot of pistol shooting. I would gladly trade a few rifle rounds for more pistol rounds if I had to make a choice. I don't see any  problems with seven as far as target presentation or safety or round count. just about everyone I know that shoots wild bunch loads there own ammo and plenty of it.  wild bunch is the best gun game ever played! it's also the biggest  secret never told. if we can all get the word out to various disciplines WB will grow.    dusty boddams

 

I completely agree with you. :D

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;D ;D Howdy Nellie!  how's the wrist? are you going to make state?  we are promising a large time. BD,  sounds like you have got them headed in the right direction. sometimes it just takes a while . we are spoiled rotten where I shoot at because obviously we have fred  but we also have the president of the club, billy bob who is 100% on board with WB as well as several other officers in the club and of course the wild bunch junkies who are the type of shooters that after we finish the 5 stage match we break for lunch and then shoot a BAMM match and sometimes after that we will try one more. time before last was a shotgun only side match 25 shots from the pump guns ,they was so hot you could just about smell burned skin! all you have to do is get just a couple of hi round count stages under there belts and then set back and enjoy. hey you could talk them into letting you and jfrank setup 2 demo stages and let everyone shoot ya'lls and then the balance of theirs and see if they can spot a difference .it would be lots o'fun!  dusty
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DB,

They are great folks; my favorite club to shoot with.  Bogus and I have written them stages and I wrote four for their annual last year.  It just seems hard for them to write stages for more than 10 pistol.  There has been lots of progress.  So Bogus and I need to write them for a while.

JFN

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;D ;D Howdy Nellie!  how's the wrist?

 

:D  Still not well enough to shoot WB...it's not 'really' ready to shoot cowboy...but this weekend is the LA State Championship...Gotta go!

 

If by some miracle it gets better before TX State WB, I'll be there...but I'm not holding my breath at the moment.  Modified some meds...so 'hopefully' it'll start getting better soon.  Thanks for asking. ;)

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Here is some food for thought.  My second major WB match was BS in 2011.  On the stage 7 was my first shooters choice stage; 25 targets shot from the bank, shooters line was, "Them's Washers!"  I shot it all pistol and didn't come close to the top times.  The shooters who did well loaded 11 (or more) in their rifle (there are no maximum # of rounds you can load in the rifle or shotgun), they shot the shotgun second and wrapped it up with a couple of pistol mags.  This stage taught me lots about competing in WBAS.  We talk about the 1911 being king (John Browning was a genius), the shotgun being second and the rifle for extra variety.  But with a shooters choice stage see which guns the shooters reach for first, it is not the 1911!

 

When we shot this same stage at EOT that year the match writers had written in 10 and 6 round limits on the rifle and the shotgun.  Having learned my lesson, I shot it rifle, shotgun and pistol.  Had I been able to shoot it with 7 rounders and cut out a mag change I would have shot it all pistol.

JFN

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jfn,ltl, I see exactly what ya'll are saying. I do see how on the stage described you could do better("faster")  by having seven round mags because your running against shotguns and rifles and you are making the choice to go all pistol. I guess most or everyone else went with the long guns?  the stage you describe makes a valid point. still the powers that be are going to cuss and discuss this a lot in the future. if something changes it will be months and months away. (remember the model 12).  I think if a competitor wants pure pistol stages then bend the match directors ear until you get those stages. if they can't figure it out write some stages for them and show them what you would like to see. other than some people not having enough mags, which is easily corrected a stage could be made written for 40 or 50 rounds pistol only  without any problem. we did a Texas 50 stage that was 35 pistol,10 rifle,5 shotgun and it was a lot of fun. did a 25 round shotgun stage a month or 2 ago and it was slightly excessive. hey JFN  did you ever recreate that stage you mentioned and shot it with seven rounders and 5 rounders to see how much real difference there is?  I would be curious to know the results.  dusty
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