Dead Horse Poll - Seven Rounds in the Magazine?

[billbonney]

Howdy,

 

Well....... it looks like after a month (almost) the overwhelming percentage is for seven in the mag. :) :) :) :)

 

How do we get this changed.  Through the TG's?  At the next SASS convention?

 

Now what? Written proposal or submittal?

 

I for one would like to see it changed ASAP.  Who is going to make the effort to get it changed, I will help as much as I can to get it changed.

 

Bill Bonney

[Happy Jack]

The Wild bunch Committee will be meeting at EOT. We have also scheduled a meeting with the Ambassadors at EOT for Sunday evening. 7 rounds in the magazine will be on the agenda for both meetings.

[Wild Bodie Tom]

I have a very, very simple solution.......... See ya in Utah in a few weeks.

Simple is good, yes?????????

Well, maybe not.

[billbonney]

The Wild bunch Committee will be meeting at EOT. We have also scheduled a meeting with the Ambassadors at EOT for Sunday evening. 7 rounds in the magazine will be on the agenda for both meetings.

Howdy,

  Are the Ambassadors supposed to notify the clubs in their respective regions to see how we want to vote?  Do we send them proxies like SASS and the Territorial Governors?  How do we know who is voting for what?

We should let as many WBAS folks as we possibly can know what is happening and be able to tell their ambassador how they want them to vote, on this and any other items that require their vote.

 

Thanks

Bill Bonney

[UnionJack]

Personally I really don't care . It all ends up being about rounds down the range on target,or not ,as in my case most of the time. For me more magazine changes are a good thing  it keeps it challenging and fun . Make it 3 /5/7 I will still shoot the game . Just my 2cents.

[Goatneck]

 

Lets look at this topic from a different perspective.  If 7 rounds in the Mag were legal.  Most of you have missed one important point that has been addressed.  WE who write Stages in my case for Monthly Matches and varoius WB State Championsships around the country.  Also the stage writers for Winter Range and EOT will maintain the same Magazine Count per stage as we shoot now.  Lets look at it from a round count view only.  I also would write all my stages with the same Mag count .

 

Monthly WB Match 6 stages with an average 4 mags per stage= 28 pistol rds per stage

                          6 mag stage will equal to                          =42 pistol rds

                                                                                      = 168 pistol rds per match

 

State, Winter Range & EOT  10 stages average 4 mags

per stage                                                                          = 280 pistol rds per match

 

          12 stage Match avg 4 mags per stage...                      =336 pistol rds per match

 

 

 

From my point of view I will shoot what every the rules calls for.  Steel Dust Dan and Lone Dog the question to you would you attend a match with that high of round count?  I have visited with a number of shooters and they cannot afford  or will not shoot that many pistol rounds in a match.  I think most of the shooters think when the round count per mag increases to 7 that the number of mags will decrease.  Thats not going to be the case

 

Some food for thought

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Goatneck,

Your round count assumes we keep the same number of mag changes per stage, if the goal is a certain number of mag changes then this truly a mag change game.

My assumption is that the round counts will essentially stay the same:

4 mags/20 rounds to 3 mags/21 rounds

5 mags/25 rounds to 4 mags/28 rounds

6 mags/30 rounds to 5 mags/35 rounds

The current setup adds an unnecessary mag change.  Another transition just to keep the round count the same for those who shoot CAS.  One of the interesting things I notice is if a stage is written so the shooter can choose any or all guns to shoot it, the 1911 is the last gun chosen because of the low # of rounds in the mag and the time added by mag changes.  What does that tell us about the role of the 1911 in shooting WBAS?

To answer your question, any WBAS match I attend costs me a minimum of $40 in fuel.  I go to shoot, so yes if the round count went up I would gladly shoot it.  It would make WBAS truly a 1911 game which appeals to non-SASS shooters.

 

JFN

[Garrison Joe]

Gentlemen -

As you start thinking about 7 round mags, I suggest you try to compile typical target counts and the sweeps that you could use to "come out even" on them.  It seems to be a little tougher to layout with 7-round mag loadouts coming out "cleanly", except with a 3 or 4 target layout. 

 

Try single tap sweeps, double tap sweeps, progressive sweeps, Nevada sweeps and whatever else you think is pretty common.  The 7 rounds don't seem to come out very even on lots of layouts we normally use in WB now.

 

Stage writers may not think 7-round mag loadouts are as easy.  Some stages, you might want to consider that a mag would be able to be loaded less than 7 to come out even.  That might even be the first mag in the pistol, to avoid having to remember a specific mag on the body that has, say, 4 rounds in it to make a sweep have the right round count to end on an empty mag.

 

Good luck, GJ   

[billbonney]

Howdy

7 round target sequences are not one bit harder to figure out than 5.  WBAS is NOT Cowboy shooting with a 1911, so don't start with those sweeps and sequences on your mind. At first it was a little odd but after you get used to it it works out just fine.  And if you must use 5 targets 2,1,1,1,2 works out. It is tricky if you try to shoot the same stages as the cowboys (some clubs do this because they only have the one time slot/day at the range to get in both matches) but it can be accomplished with an extra target or two for the WBAS folks to shoot.  I know with a little effort we can come up with our own "sweeps" using a base of 7 shots and move on from there. 

 

Lets get to shooting 7!

 

Bill Bonney

[Col. Leigh Thal Ludlow]

I am enjoying this discussion. It is great to hear all the justifications that are out there for why one is better than another. Some of these things I would have never anticipated.

 

However, my intro to WBAS was with the 7 round per mag standard. The thing I first noticed ( after many years of CAS sweep experience - that I still enjoy) was a feeling of being off the ranch and doing something truly different. I didn't understand what the significant change was at first but I found that it had a lot to do with the unique sweeps and target arrays that I was shooting. For me it was another separation from CAS that made this game exciting and different enough to buy guns and gear or to pursue.

 

I know that, with experience writing for seven, our talented stage writers will be able to innovate fun, exciting and different sweeps needed for any change that will also add to the spice of this amazing game we love to play!

 

CLTL

[Garrison Joe]

My post was not a complaint.  It was a challenge.  List 'em if you got em.  I'll start you off - Let's see what you would do for a progressive sweep or something similar, where round count is different on each target and yet still a very simple series....

 

:D  GJ

[billbonney]

My post was not a complaint.  It was a challenge.   List 'em if you got em.   I'll start you off - Let's see what you would do for a progressive sweep or something similar, where round count is different on each target and yet still a very simple series....

 

:D  GJ

GJ

I did not think it was a complaint, I apologize if my post sounded that way.

 

I just think we do not need a "progressive sweep" or a "Black Jack Sweep", or a "you name it sweep", we should just forget the "cowboy" sweep references, and in my opinion just make up what we need for multiples of 7 shots.

I think that stage writers can just think outside the cowboy box and come up with interesting 7 shot based scenarios for us to use.

 

3 targets  1,2,3,2,1,2,3 for seven x how many times

4 targets  1,2,3,4,3,2,1, for 7 x how many times

5 targets  1,1,2,3,4,5,5 for seven x how many times

5 targets arranged in a cross 3 up & down and 3 across numbered 12 oclock is 1, 3 oclock is 2, 6 oclock is 3, 9 oclock is 4, center is 5.  1111,5,33 then 2222,5,44 then 3333,5,11 then 4444,5,22 for a total of 28 with 3 mag changes

 

There are some very very talented stage writers out theer (obviously not me) and I think that they will find some very interesting and fun stages for us to shoot.

 

And if you have enough targets how about two different pistol sequences on one stage, a hostage type target, a mover,  etc. etc. etc.

 

 

Just an idea.

Bill Bonney

 

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

This is a really good discussion!  Keep 'em coming!

 

Cheers,

FJT

[Wild Bodie Tom]

A lot hinges at whether you are stuck with pre-set target arrays at the venue for whatever reason.

That does rear its head at some locations. Still can write around that usually pretty easily.

 

You can do whatever you wish otherwise.........And non State and aboves i.e. club matches are free to do whatever anyway...

Still do not see why it "HAS" to be a rule..... Do what the stage calls for. When we do seven, we just do ALL seven for the match at the monthlies. That is to help "prevent" potential penalties... THAT is the only reason. I wish I could really state the whole real issue here, but won't. Its not tough...

 

Just VERY dependent on being safe for movement if you are moving with the pistol. And there are rules for that....

[Garrison Joe]

4 targets -

1 on #1

2 on #2

4 on #3

7 on #4

Rather icky, no?     Even worse, 1,2,3,8.   That's not even a polka...

 

(Maybe that is why there is no 6/7 time signature in music?)

 

Come on, you all can get closer to a "Larry Welk" than that!

 

Name us a few that IPCS does to get us rolling....

 

GJ

[Steel Dust Dan]

My assumption is the same as J Frank's...round count stays about the same, just reduce the mag changes. I don't have a problem shooting ammo. I do have a problem owning 10 or 12 or 20 mags. If there's more than 6 I won't be there. Just my "tipping point." Some people will not attend lost brass matches. OK, I don't think it is such a big deal, but more than 6 mags is a deal breaker. No logic, just the way it is.

 

Sme of the CAS sweeps won't work. So? We can come up with WB sweeps. I found out this past Saturday that 3 and 4 target arrays work the best. We had one stage with two banks of 4 targets each, one low and "close," the other high and "far." Sweep the 8 targets with 4 mags of 7. It was fun.

[Col. Leigh Thal Ludlow]

I heard this called the "Tres Pinos sweep" . If attributable to someone else... My apologies!

 

 

2 on #1

3 on #2

4 on #3

5 on #4

 

For 14. Wash repeat

 

Easy

 

"There's no one Tres Pinos is #1"!

 

 

 

[Blackfoot]

Magazine changes gives opportunity for movement and different target presentations. Adds variety to the game!

 

Blackfoot :)

[Garrison Joe]

I heard this called the "Tres Pinos sweep" . If attributable to someone else... My apologies!

 

2 on #1

3 on #2

4 on #3

5 on #4

 

For 14.

OK, that's a nice one for a progressive sweep!  And a variation on it with 5 targets, you could do a 2-3-4-3-2 tap sweep.

 

 

Next challenge - Something like a Nevada sweep (no double taps), to use 14 shots, and you don't want the simplest way of using four targets (or the dumb way with just 2 targets alternated).

 

GJ

[Happy Jack]

I am reluctant to make a post on this thread as it might be misinterpreted as a Committee position. IT IS NOT !!

 

I don't see a reason to make a change for changes sake. Unless there is a compelling advantage to 7 over 5 I don't see a good reason to change. The story that "The only reason I won't shoot WBAS is because I can't load 7" is a red herring in my opinion. Just because the magazine holds 7 (most new magazines hold 8) doesn't seem like a compelling reason to me. I like the opportunity for more movement that changing magazines allows. Standing in one place and firing 7 or 14 rounds isn't as much fun as 5 or 10 and more movement. The ONLY justification that makes sense to me for changing is to further remove WBAS from CAS. We already do that with more movement, preloading the shotgun, more difficult targets, different rules, etc. Just a personal opinion and NOT in any way reflecting what the Committee may or may not decide.

[Steel Dust Dan]

Well said, Happy Jack. I don't like change just for change's sake either. However, I'm leaning heavily toward 7 in the mag because of historical design. Secondly, we stoke the shotgun, and usually the rifle. Why? Because they were designed that way, or at least built that way now. Fnally, I think we are still in need of a target market. I don't think our growth will come from CAS shooters, at least not in great numbers. We are a gun game in search of an audience. The vast majority of CAS shooters sure don't want us poluting their matches. Just hop over to the SASS Wire and read the posts on any Wild Bunch topic. Your ears will burn and your eyes will see red. Try explaining WBAS to a 1911 shooter and watch their expression when you say we only load 5 in the mags. Immediate disinterest.

[Lone Dog]

Yes we had some fun last Saturday with 7 round mag scenarios courtesy of Steel Dust Dan. No problems.

 

7 per mag is coming, I feel it in my bones. Just no good reason not to just go ahead and do it. Maybe not soon but someday and tomorrow is not soon enuff.

 

SIX magazines total SDD? Man you really need to buy some more mags. At least one stage at every match should be 1911 only and 6 will not be sufficient. I have a dozen and need to buy a coupla dozen more! Har! And the sooner the better.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

My post was not a complaint.  It was a challenge.   List 'em if you got em.   I'll start you off - Let's see what you would do for a progressive sweep or something similar, where round count is different on each target and yet still a very simple series....

 

:D  GJ

 

GJ,

I think I did that 2 years ago

 

http://sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=813.0

 

JFN

[Col. Leigh Thal Ludlow]

 

OK, that's a nice one for a progressive sweep!   And a variation on it with 5 targets, you could do a 2-3-4-3-2 tap sweep.

 

 

Next challenge - Something like a Nevada sweep (no double taps), to use 14 shots, and you don't want the simplest way of using four targets (or the dumb way with just 2 targets alternated).

 

GJ

 

I hesitate to play this game with you because you could ask for sweeps that you have previously determined don't work. Moreover, in my opinion the whole idea is that a change from the current expectation WILL be required. And we'd be better off for it!

 

But to show that anything a person wants to do can be done... here we go.  ;D

 

Nevada Sweep:

Three targets

 

1 on #1

"      #2

  "    #3

  "    #2

  "    #1

  "    #2

  "    #3

For 7. Repeat for 14

Or, as I prefer show off our independence from CAS and slap down some movement to the next array, repeat or mix it up for 14, 21, 28...

 

Four targets:

 

1 on #1 (KD that only gets shot the first time) we all like kd's right?

1 on #2

1 on #3

1 on #4

        #3

        #2

        #3

        #4

        #3

        #2

        #3

        #4

      #3

      #2

 

5 Targets:

 

1 ( KD), 2,3,4,5 ( KD),4,3,2,3,4,3,2,3,4

 

You may say I cheated. I say I improvised, overcame, adapted.

It sounds like fun to me!    ;D

[Garrison Joe]

 

 

 

I hesitate to play this game with you because you could ask for sweeps that you have previously determined don't work. Moreover, in my opinion the whole idea is that a change from the current expectation WILL be required. And we'd be better off for it!

 

But to show that anything a person wants to do can be done... here we go.  ;D

 

 

No, I wouldn't raise a challenge like that (something that seems to have no solution) without warning you that I had already worked for X number of hours trying to find a solution.

 

But, I did puzzle with it for about a minute before asking, not wanting to appear denser than I normally do.  I would say that your solution on this one meets the ingenuity test, but probably not the simplicity test. 

 

And it's certainly not the brain-teaser job that I would like to have to solve as a match director when I've got 12 stages to design in the next hour or two.  It seems to me that 7 round mags will require a small cheat sheet FOR ME to be able to design stages  quickly enough to keep me from pulling out the rest of my gray hair.  And, the post that JFN cited that he wrote 20 months ago does include several interesting sweeps.

 

If we are going to go seven rounds, then let's allow moving at least with slide down and finger off trigger, too, or the IPSC and other practical disciplines are going to be all over that restriction as their next complaint.

 

Good luck, GJ