Happy Jack

We intend to keep stage points for major matches. (WR, EOT) Until the problems with DNF's and SDQ's are addressed successfully with TT we plan to keep the system. As for the issues at EOT the problems occur with ANY scoring system when there is a SDQ or a DNF when you score within category (a small pool) the SDQ or DNF becomes a huge factor. When you re-score with a large pool (total shooters for overall) the SDQ/DNF becomes a much smaller factor. That is just the way math works. One thing being considered is IF Overall Winners are going to continue (SASS likes them) Instead of scoring within category and then re-scoring Overall we may just do like TT and RP currently score. Just score everyone together in Overall and then pick the category winners out of that list in order. That would make it impossible for a person to NOT win their category and place above others in their category overall. The downside is you loose the pure within category scoring. You can't have it both ways.

I have sent an email to the other Committee members for clarification. Will post as soon as I hear back.

AWESOME !!!!!!!! Fantastic idea that really worked.

The reload problem asked by August and answered by Frank will in all probability become a non-issue starting Jan. 01. We are changing several rules and eliminating others.

Fear not. We aren't going to lower PF. Not going to 9mm pistols or 38 rifles. NOT adding new categories. At least as long as the current leadership is here. Most of those objecting have never and will never shoot Wild bunch. Just their red herring complaint of the day.

The bullet weight, pistol weight, power factor, are NOT negotiable. We had an actual member of the Wild Bunch Committee DQ'd because his power factor was 149.5 at Winter Range. I don't know anyone who shoots 180 grain bullets in their 45ACP. We pull bullets and weigh them if it is close. Not being a prick but the rules are the rules. You push the edge someday you will fail. Remember the chronograph and the scale in use at the match are the official ones and the results cannot be challenged. Not every scale and chrono agree so I would advise you don't push the edge. We have DQ'd people with factory ammo listed as 160 power factor but it was only 145.

When considering the change to 7 in the magazine the Committee gave serious thought to the rifle. We believe that MOST rifle sequences will go to 7 rounds in order to keep engagement sequences similar. The rifle is the least emphasized firearm in WBAS.

There are a lot of 5 target sets. 7 on 5 1,1,2,3,4,5,5. A variation of the Rattler John with 14 on 6 1,1,2,3,4,5,6 1,2,3,4,5,6,6

Re-shoot due to "match equipment failure". In this case "timer failure" even though it may be due to poor TO position. Check timer for proper operation before re-shoot. Make sure TO is paying attention. If no re-shoot Score posted as DNF. Ask shooter to re-shoot. If they won't take the DNF and gets belligerent: MDQ Unsportsman-like conduct.

There is not now and there are no plans to have another Sanctioned category using smaller caliber firearms. Local clubs can do whatever they wish. Although it was before Wild Bunch became a SASS Sanctioned sport Holy Terror was only 12 and she shot a 45 Colt rifle, a 12 gauge shotgun and loved to shoot her granddad's (Evil Roy) 1911 in 45ACP.

SWEET !!! My guess from looking at that barrel bushing and hammer the lockwork is far from "stock". ;D

IF Montana Bullet works has a bullet you can use I highly recommend them. They are about the only commercial caster that sells bullets of match quality. I have bought both 38-55 and 45-70 bullets from them over the years.

A few things to think about: #1. SASS is the ONLY shooting organization on the planet with SDQ's. Every other shooting sport only has MDQ's or nothing. The thought was that a SDQ was worse than a MSV but should NOT remove the shooter from placing in the match if they did really well the rest of the match. Do I think it is a good system?? NO, but it will NOT change. It is impossible to come up with a time for a SDQ that is fair for all types of matches. In matches such as EOT Misses + 150 is an automatic MDQ for placement. At other matches where stage times are on average much longer it might work. Remember the miss +30 came about when average stage times were in the 35-45 second range. In their attempt to be "nice" to shooters SASS totally screwed up the penalty issue. #2. For many years there has been much more of a clamor to score SASS matches within Category than any other way. Stage Points allows that. Total time actually does not. #3. I have been personally opposed to Overall winners forever, BUT SASS recognizes them in CAS so the same for WBAS. It is interesting AGAIN that SAS is the only shooting sport on the planet that recognizes BOTH Category winners and Overall winners. Any scoring system that is correct within Category will give different results when everyone is placed in a pool to come up with Overall placements. #4 Stage points does give more weight to stages with more "opportunities to miss" so it is more fair in that respect. #5. When CD Tom transfered the program into the SAS Match Management system he made a number of mistakes. Some were corrected but not all. That has resulted in messed up results that had to be corrected the last 2 years at both WR and EOT. Aces only has one known problem and it is with SDQ's but it can be manually overriden.

Tully, we changed the wording a few years ago for the reason GJ mentioned.

Just back from 10 days in Michigan. Wild Bunch scoring has NOT CHANGED at this time. However we do not own SASS so they may make a decision for us.

Since I NEVER look at posted scores at the end of each day I wasn't aware that points were being posted instead of actual stage times. I will see to it that is changed next year at EOT. Shooters TIMES should be posted NOT points. Also probably only the shooters SASS # instead of their names will be posted with the times.

I have ALWAYS been opposed to an "overall winner" when you have categories. SASS venues are the only ones in the world that have BOTH category winners and overall winners. Every other shooting sport has only one or the other. My position is not shared by most of those in charge however.

It is all very simple. When you score WITHIN category (in this case fewer than 6 shooters) a SDQ is HUGE and moves a shooter who won 6 of the stages well down in the results. THEN when you decide to re-score the results with everyone in the same pool (80 shooters) to get overall the SDQ becomes less significant and the OVERALL points scored based on the performance within the large pool moves the shooter to the top. That happens with ANY scoring system that allows scoring within category and then re-scores the total shooters in a larger pool to get the overall top shooters. If you use total time or Rank points and score within category and then re-score for overall it can happen. If you score only overall and then pull category placements out of the results the shooters in EVERY other category affect the shooters placement. You can't have it both ways. Either score within category and then overall and get different results occasionally or score overall and let other shooters affect category placement.

You may shoot what you wish, BUT, I will NOT shoot the poly coated bullets in my guns. Just the opinion of an old narrow minded chemist who has been shooting matches for over 50 years.

I assume that the Sniper match will be lead bullets only?? Since it is shot on the old SASS buffalo targets that are soft steel??

Chance and Bubba are finishing the stages and sending them for review. I think the 450 rounds is the TOTAL for all 3 guns. I haven't received the stages yet but I can assure you that the pistol average will NOT be 37.5.

I also go thousands of rounds between cleanings of my 1911's. I have only used WST powder for at least 20 years in 45ACP loads. It became available to the public in the early 1990's and is the first choice of many pro shooters for 45ACP loads. I also use only Penn Bullets. 230gr H&G. Never a malfunction or an accuracy problem if I do my part. I think the red oil from Brownells is repackaged Lucas. It is really good stuff.

There was a small spinoff called ZOOT Shooting that was started by Bat Masterson in CO. They use a Thompson SMG in their shoots. I don't know if it is still active.

This issue has been discussed with the SASS Board of Directors. They will not be allowed at a sanctioned (State and above) shoot.

It could be slightly modified in a number of ways to make it PART of a course of fire. You need to drop the round count to 5. Perhaps 2-1-2 on the targets. Starting facing uprange would be OK if it were the initial starting position for the COF since the shooter would have time to turn before charging the pistol. I have shot the E P hundreds of times in practice and at IDPA and IPSC/USPSA matches. I have never heard of it being used at a WBAS match though.