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7 Round Mags in Wild Bunch


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The Texican Rangers ran five stages of 7-round mags, five mags per stage. 35 rounds of 1911, 7 rifle, and usually 6 shotgun per stage..

 

It was a hoot to shoot!  When the shooter finally made it to the firing line. 

 

We had 16 shooters, saw about an hour per stage.

 

In review, the group agreed that this was a bit much.  We were plumb wore out by the end of the match.

 

We averaged 100 seconds of raw shooting time per shooter per stage, including all of the usual hiccups with the 1911 and the 97.  Another 125 seconds to stage weapons and then clear the firing line. 

 

Averaged 500 seconds per shooter for the match.  The fastest shooter was 327 seconds.

 

We usually had three brass pickers working to pick up 48 empty cases after each shooter.

 

Summary - All Time in Seconds

Average Match Raw Shooting Time per Shooter 502.02

Average Stage Raw Shooting Time per Shooter 100.40

Time for Match                                               18000.00

Time per Stage                                               3600.00

Time per Stage per Shooter                                 225.00

 

 

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;D ;D ;D GS, sounds like a blast . I would have liked to be there. so it wore everyone out. nobody complained about not shooting enough that's for sure. really you averaged about 4 minutes a shooter and at the state match and every where else I have been it averages about 3 minutes.  you could always throw in a 3 mag stage in the middle of the match or just lay the rifle down for one stage or 4  shotgun for a stage or two. heck, shooting stages like this you could go for a 4 stage match. originally we used to shoot 6 stages and it was wearing everyone out so we went to five for our monthly matches.  the brass picking seems to take all the time and wear people out the most. I haven't done it yet but since we shoot from a closed in prop house I had thought you could cut a access panel at the bottom of the wall and put a basket under that to catch the brass after it was swept out. that way each piece is not being policed individually and the shooter walks over and gets his brass out of the basket. what about those brass pickers that look like pecan pickers? wonder how those would work for what we are doing? dusty boddams
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Wow! That's almost 50 rounds per stage!  No wonder you were worn out.  It wasn't the 7 round mags that got you, it was the high round count per stage.  Sounds like someone has been listening to WBT.

 

Even though the brass picking is a bear, bet it was fun to get to blast away like that!  I would have liked to have been there.

JFN

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Howdy all, first post. Here in Colorado at the Pawnee Station at Great Guns in Nunn, I also run WB stages with 7 rounds per mag. However, our round count per stage varies between 21 to 35. With 5 to 7 rounds rifle and 2 to 6 shotgun. We shoot the 1st Sunday of the month and today had only 5 shooters, graduation and all here, but the 5 of us had a great time, scoring, policing and all. Some stages I write is for the 1911 only, usually 35 to 42 rounds, shooting from 5 different positions. It a hoot to shoot! Our times vary from 40 to 130 seconds per shooter. We start at 9am and are done by noon. So three hours seems like a long time for 5 shooters, there is a lot of laughing and heckling going on after each shooter, and we all have our gun problems as well. We may be small but we're trying to get bigger each shoot. We'll have a 4 stage mini match over the 4th of July at our State Championship match all are welcome to come to Colorado and have a great WB & Cowboy shoot. Thanks all. Hope to see some of you at EOT.

TriggerHappy Ted (88160)

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  • 1 month later...

Well Garand one of the most popular catch phrases of WBAS is "it's not CAS with a 1911".

 

Indeed it is not and one more very good reason to cut the 5 round tie to CAS and go with 7 round mags like St. JMB intended.

 

This outcry is not going to die down or go away and sooner or later the 5 round restriction will go the way of the dodo.

 

In the future we will look back and wonder how and why it ever was instituted to start with.

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Just for information we have interviewed clubs constantly from the start and feedback from those actually shooting the matches is 5 rounds works well and most like it.  Most would not quit if it changed but again most had no problem with shooting 5. It is a good balance between mag changes and number of rounds fired.  It also gives one more opportunity to move as we cannot move with a slide forward.  It also needs to stay a 3 gun match and the tendency with more in the mag is to make the rifle less of a factor.  The intend is not to make it not like SASS but a separate sport.  We are not trying to be like IPSC or not like SASS.  It is really a large caliber 3 gun match which can be shot on a 30 yard range with lead bullets with no crawling around on the ground which makes it easier for all to compete on an equal basis.  If it were just a 1911 match you could just shoot IPSC or IDPA with lead bullets. All sports have their own rules and some are not liked.  Indeed, the most difficult thing about changing shooting sports is getting enough experience with new rules and procedures.  Pistol shooting is pistol shooting.
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As an aside every type match I know of does not shoot 7 rounds in a mag. with 1911s.  Every single discipline in which I have shot my 1911 in you could use 8 round mags.  Many approve 20 plus in a mag.  I don't think that keeps anyone from shooting IPSC or IDPA.

 

Another issue that comes up once in awhile is the "we need to shoot the from cocked and locked" like they were intended to be.  When I was a machine gunner in the service I carried one.  They were never holstered cocked and locked.  Never. I believe the original gun by Browning did not even have a frame mounted safety.  I think it was required by the military.  Not that it matters as chamber empty is the rule for the game but it is correct for the period if not for all general issue by the military.  I know Special Ops guys do carry them cocked and locked but general line troops did not.  If you can imagine a room or helicopter full of troops racking a round in the chamber and engaging the safety and re-holstering the 1911.......

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Evil Roy,

Folks see what they want to see.  The percentages below have not changed since the poll was started.  When you asked the question at the Texas State match in Cleburne, from where I was standing it looked like the response you got fit the poll.

 

http://sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=1619.0

 

[move]What ever . . .[/move]

 

JFN

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;D jfrank, from what I remember about the state match I walked away thinking not many really cared one way or the other. I remember thinking that I thought it was strange,that people would be more polarized than what they were. As a side note we had a small group for WB after the state match and decided we would shoot one seven round stage. Disaster! I'm sure if it was all stages and practice was done with 7 it would work just fine but mags were ejected at 5 and everything was thrown off. I'm still in the don't care camp. If we went to 7 tomorrow I will practice,get in the new groove and be ready to compete. One more thing though,I think that everyone that thinks they would like 7 to go shoot a match with 7 and then decide what they want. Dusty Boddams
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Dusty,

You are probably correct, from the back it looked different to me.  Guess I saw what I wanted.

 

I think the current shooters will shoot no matter what the round count. 

 

Last Saturday saw an old friend.  He is an active IDPA shooter from the Houston area.  Since I was returning from a match he wanted to see my Wild Bunch guns.  A rabid 1911 shooter, he was obviously interested in this type of 3 gun.  His first remark was he didn't want to dress up in a costume.  When I told him what I was wearing was what I shot in he replied that was what he wore every day.  His interest rapidly vanished when discussing the rules I mentioned the mags were loaded with 5 rounds.

 

Lets face it.  WBAS is a CAS side match where cowboy shooters get to shoot their 1911.  As SASS ages where do we get new shooters?  In New Mexico we aren't and if the numbers at this year's state match are an indicator, Texas isn't either.

JFN

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We want it to grow past the side match stage it is in but I don't think 7 rounds matters one way or the other. I could care less myself.  I just cannot imagine why someone would or would not shoot a match based on mag capacity.  It makes no difference in any other sport.  I don't like 28 round mags in a 1911 but it never entered my mind to not shoot a match because of that. Eight round mags are not original.  Neither are 9 round allowed by some for 9mm.  I think if folks are interested in shooting they will shoot.  I can understand not wanting to dress up a like a B Western star as some think we have to do but I fully respect those that do.  Frankly I think some of the rules in both IDPA and IPSC are silly to me but I still shoot the matches when I can because I like to shoot them.  I refuse to wear shorts so they can refuse to wear fuzzy chaps. No big deal.
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Jfrank, yes,gosh sass is gray but I've been a sass member since 1991 and it's always been gray. We have never been young as a group. Why don't you tell your old friend that the drinks are on you! In other words take him and furnish the gear and when he sees how we do things let's see what he thinks of it then. I can see how an idpa shooter might glaze over because he would be shooting ESP class with his 1911 and holding 9 rounds at start and then tactical reload all the way through the stage because that's his only gun. They never shoot anything else at all the idpa matches I've been to. Funny thing is I quit shooting those matches because I got bored shooting only one gun. I keep on thinking we are the greatest gun game in search of an audience. I also keep on thinking if we can get the word out there in front of shooters that we will pick up more competitors as time goes by. Of course it sounds like a scape goat because we have all been shooting WB all this time but maybe with the component market loosening up we will get more shooters. Could not guess why we didn't have more shooters at the Texas state,heck of a fun match with all the trimmings. Weird thing com'n atcha the regional match over in English Texas ( just the other side of the end of the earth for you) the WB match had I think around 80-100 shooters. So I guess sass shooters will shoot WB in conjunction but not stand alone?
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We want it to grow past the side match stage it is in but I don't think 7 rounds matters one way or the other. I could care less myself.  I just cannot imagine why someone would or would not shoot a match based on mag capacity.  It makes no difference in any other sport.  I don't like 28 round mags in a 1911 but it never entered my mind to not shoot a match because of that. Eight round mags are not original.  Neither are 9 round allowed by some for 9mm.  I think if folks are interested in shooting they will shoot.  I can understand not wanting to dress up a like a B Western star as some think we have to do but I fully respect those that do.  Frankly I think some of the rules in both IDPA and IPSC are silly to me but I still shoot the matches when I can because I like to shoot them.  I refuse to wear shorts so they can refuse to wear fuzzy chaps. No big deal.

 

 

ER, main thing is don't wear fuzzy chaps AND shorts at the same time!;D ;D ;D!

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Like I said I don't care either way but the bottom line is how many more shooters have you clubs gotten when you started shooting WB with 7 rounds.  Sounds like you attendance doubled.  Did it?  The majority of clubs and people we talked to either don't care or are perfectly happy with 5 rounds.  If clubs started calling saying that the instant they upped the mag count attendance soared I would be on board in a heartbeat. The clubs I talked to said it made no difference.  Again it makes no difference in any other sport as well.  If your only reason for not shooting is it is too much like CAS you are not shooting the same matches as me.
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To the heart of the matter on getting more shooters from other sports.  I think the costume thing is the limiting factor for many.  I do not think folks realize what you can wear and be legal in WB for CAS as well. Basic farm/ranch wear usually works. Like I said if IDPA  required shorts that would be a stop and think moment for me.  The other thing is people have to realize these are very challenging matches using large bore guns with power factors.  Clean matches are very rare. The mag thing may or may not ever change but the  matches are fun whether 5, 6 ,7 ,8 or 10 rounds are used in the 1911. The rifle and shotgun need to stay important or it will be just another 1911 match. Quit trying to find reasons not to shoot and get out and go bang. Most who shoot as much as they can, get the gear and go shoot.  They do not try to change the rules before they start to fit their every desire. Go have some fun.
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Lafives,

 

I shoot cowboy and Wild Bunch with the expectation that it is a game.  I do things in each of them that I would never do in a real gunfight.

 

I practice and do stuff in Cowboy and Wild Bunch.

 

I also practice and do stuff for my personal defense.

 

If you are going to WB or SASS matches to work on your "real gunfight" skills, the NRA and other private groups offer some great classes on the subject that you may find help broaden your knowledge base.

 

 

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Finally going to give my 2 cents.  And we all know what that is worth.......

 

I think I would prefer 7 rounds, but in all reality it doesn't matter. I get to shot my 1911.  I will say the 5 in a mag has been a challenge shooting IDPA, but that is my challenge.  Remembering that I don't have to hit the slide release because I have one in the chamber, the magazines seat harder with 7 or 8 rounds in them and I still use no base pads or mag wells in IDPA.  But these are my decisions.

 

We recently participated in a 2 day defensive pistol class.  Actually a great class.  There was an IDPA shooter and match director in the class and we got to rag on each other during the class.  First he hit me with the dress.  I countered that the dress shouldn't be a factor as jeans and a long sleeve shirt were fine along with boots.  But I countered again that in IDPA we have to wear a cover garment or as he and many wear a "Shoot me first vest" so that shut him up.  Then came the loading of 5 in the magazine.  I looked at him and asked; How many rounds does that XDM hold?  He replied 17 and I followed up with "What is the max can you load in IDPA?  10 rounds.  I looked at him and didn't have to say a word. The light went on ... wow and you could see him process that we have restrictions as well. 

 

While 5 rounds is what it is, most shooting sports have rules and we all have to play within those rules.  I really think the need to purchase a rifle and shotgun and use lead bullets are in my opinion the largest drawback not the 5 rounds limits in the magazine.  Not everyone reloads and the majority of shooters in other sports shoot 9 mm or 40. They will use whatever excuse is convenient at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

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  They will use whatever excuse is convenient at the time.

 

 

This is true in many aspects in SASS. Weather it be 5 in the magazine to when and where the Convention is or that its to far to travel to Winter Range.

 

We all set priorities (sp) If we really want to play the game, go to Convention or Winter Range we will make it happen.

No excuses here.

 

Marshal Stone

 

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