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Winter Range Update


evilroy
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I will try to get this sent out by WR but will post what I can here.

 

I think you may be able to sign up at this time. Not sure about the cutoff date.

 

Round count.  295 Pistol, 75 Rifle, 60 Shotgun.  Just Main Match. Bring extra for side matches, testing, malfunctions etc.  You wanted more pistol rounds so you got it.  Bring lots of mags.  30 rounds per stage is normal. One stage has 25

 

There will be one stage with 12 shotgun rounds so plan accordingly.

 

If you don't know how to shoot accurately this would be a good time to learn.  There is not one target which cannot be hit by an average shooter but there are hostage heads, plate racks, dueling trees and you will as always be shooting R targets with the pistol on most stages.  Some burn down targets as well.  Texas Jack Morales designed the stages and he does great ones.

 

There will be a chrono check and gun weighing.  ALSO WE WILL BE CHECKING REQUIRED GUN SAFETY FEATURES AND CLASS COMPLIANT FEATURES when we weigh the gun.  We have heard reports of non functioning grip safeties.  That would be an illegal gun.  Check the rules and comply.  We don't want to become Rule Nazis but you cannot compete with an illegal gun.

 

Some of you are creating very unsafe conditions with lack of muzzle control and gross violations of finger on the trigger during mag changes and especially when clearing weapons.  Practice, practice, practice safe gun handling.  This is going to have to start being more of an issue.  Get use to your firearms and work on this.

 

This will be a 10 stage match and most of them will let you move to the left or right to try to minimize muzzle issues.  Again PRACTICE WITH YOUR WEAPONS live and dry fire to be safe and so you can shoot the entire match.

 

There may be more updates so check this site regularly.

 

If you can help with side matches relist here asap.  I will be putting the lists together very soon so remind me or sign up in you have not.  We want the helpers to have time to shoot also so we will need backups.

 

We're gonna have a ball.

 

ER

 

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23 days and counting! This sounds like it's going to be a heck of a lot of FUN!! ER thanks for the updates and all the hard work by yourself and others!

 

I can do anything you want on Monday as far as side match duties. Tuesday I will only be available until 4pm and would be happy to help out until that time.

 

Looking forward to seeing everyone soon!

 

Tully

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  • 4 weeks later...

Now that I've had a couple of days to digest the match, I would like to give some kudos to Texas Jack Morales and Evil Roy.  The small distant targets could be hit.  The stage with the distant dueling tree that worried me the most, I and many others shot clean.  The clusters of 10 targets were of different sizes, shapes, heights and distances and were fun to figure out how to shoot them.  I liked the added shotgun rounds and the lower rifle round count.

I really liked the 25 and 30 pistol round count.  The match really emphasized the 1911.

Thanks All!

JFN

 

PS The posses of 25 were just right.

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This is excerpted from my post on the SASS Wire:

 

One clean match?  Sheesh.

 

I'm not sure exactly what we're after here in WBAS, but I was underwhelmed by the match.

 

Lots of shooting, to be sure, but some truly strange stage scenarios, and, it seemed to me, a bit more of a precision pistol match than an action match, just with lotsa mag changes, more than anything else.  The consensus among my group, including some very experienced shooters, from all over, was that better is out there, and this was - not a very good match.  Somehow, the stages didn't feel as if someone had run them through a match or two, just to make sure they worked.

 

I respect the enormous effort that goes into putting together a match on this scale, especially in a remote location!

I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, or step on anyone's toes, but I have shot far more enjoyable matches, and would like to see improvement, especially at the National, and World level.

 

Don't get me wrong; you put it out there, and I'll shoot (at) it; but I do keep hoping for better...

 

Respectfully,

 

FJT

 

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I must respectfully disagree with my friend, Fredrick Jackson Turner. I felt it was a great mix of targets; big and close, small and distant. Lots of freedom for the shooter to shoot in their direction of choice. The only complaint anyone on my posse had was a lady who had a hard time with the high round count for 5 stages a day. At the end of the day, she was suffering. Maybe if it was 4 stages a day over 3 days would have helped.  I would love to shoot the match again next week, as long as I get ammo loaded and guns clean...

And in an effort to learn, FJT, what would folks liked to have seen? Different distances? Sizes? More Movement? Less movement? Most anyone that speaks to me about WBAS for more than a few seconds learns that I want to see it grow and prosper, so, I ask these questions to help.

Best,

Boggus

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Boggus my friend....

It to me was one of the best WB matches to date from my fence stool.

We all have a different view on what we want. Fortunately a few of us have the opportunity to present that with our involvement in matches we have input on.

  To those that have that opportunity, then present what your gut says. But also keep in mind, everywhere is different. And providing a training for whats out there, like it or not, only helps the participants a chance they may not have to get a view of what they may be subjected to.

FJT, I appreciate your comments open with open arms. Thank you.

However, the consensus is to have a tougher venue in WBAS, and always has been. If that drives folks away, then I have confidence that any shooter response sheets will be taken into consideration in that respect.

I support a 3 day, 4 stage per day venue.

However, given all the ramifications to actually pull that off, is sometimes difficult. Hopefully, those barriers can be dealt with. I know living here in AZ. ALL the effort that goes into WinterRange. There needs to be some volunteers from the WB crowd perhaps to help to provide the needed staffing into the match preparation side. IT IS A TREMENDOUS AMOUT OF WORK.

I personally thank the WinterRange group and Rangers for everything they do.

 

Thanks All

 

Bodie

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My suggestion for what I thought was a weak point of the match (the arrays of targets to be shot once each with rifle and once or multiple times each with pistol).

 

Spotting that "array" of targets for fast shooters in an accurate manner is almost impossible for the folks we draw to matches.  There were several 0,1,and 3 finger displays by spotters at WR for some of our faster shooters.

 

Do away with having to spot those kind of shooter's choice of order target sets, and go to only knockdowns.  Shooter can go as fast as they dare, all the spotters do is count the standing targets at the end.  The ultimate shooting gallery.  Yes, more knockdowns means resetting and higher target costs.  But, if we want the game to be getting better as shooters get better, then we have to upgrade our target concepts, too.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Oh, BTW, I really like 6 stages per day, and would like to return to that.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.  And do the side matches and warmup stages on the day before match, perhaps?    We didn't turn out many folks for side matches in the afternoon after the 5 main stages this time!

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Knockdowns tell all....... LOL

 

Except for the issue when they don't knockdown.....LOL

 

Kinda why we seem to have eliminated the dueling tree swinging....

And yes, I get the reset time involved, AND it has to be the same presentation for each shooter, And the.....well, you know.

 

Don't get me started....

 

Bodie

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Thanks for everyone's comments.

You have to understand that Bubba and I had to deal with what was going to be on the stages for the CAS match.  They do not have the time or manpower to change the stages over from CAS to WB.  All the stages were set for CAS

and Bubba as always added targets to make the stages more demanding and in line with WB matches.  It was impossible to change all the stages completely and had we left them we would have had mostly close burn down stages. There was not a single target that could not be hit by an average shooter.  The match had to be a two day match due to manpower and bay availability.  We wanted a 3 day 12 stage match and have already started pushing for one next year as well as senior classes.  WB matches require greater accuracy and everyone understands that.  The stages are not designed to prevent clean shooters but rather are a result of the concept of more difficult targets and high round count.  No one shoots a clean IPSC or IDPA match and very few shooting sports count on clean matches as a sign of success. I thought the match was one of the best WB matches ever and one which truly tested one's shooting ability.  The 10 targets were confusing but were part of the SASS match and required some thinking.  Spotting it was a little difficult but it was the same for the CAS match.  If you want 30% of the shooters to shoot clean WB will not make you happy.

 

I want to thank the Posse Marshalls for the hard work and great organization it took to shoot 25 people through each stage in just a little over 60 minutes.  Also thanks to all the people who helped on the side matches and to all those who worked hard to make the stages flow in a very efficient manner.

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I liked the WB match. The first day for me was a zoo as I had a mag/ ammo/ 1911 problem that didn't get sorted out until the 5th stage. Then I had a good 2nd day...well, decent anyway for WB standards- 6 misses- traditional w/ avg hi 50's. So read this with a cloud of disappointment that a 2nd at Fire & Ice came with a head plant at WR.

 

That said I liked the 'start any where- any gun'. I liked that the targets were all 'hittable'. I thought mixing up the S/G was a great idea. I remain disappointed that the rifle is still just a pistol with a longer sight radius. Shotguns are for moving targets and just slamming round after round through it at 10 yds is boring in the extreme.

 

But, changing those things would add MORE difficulty. I'm glad that the days of 25-40 misses are gone- I hope forever. Still...ONE clean match? Seriously, that's not good enough.... AND I know that when first designed targets weren't even meant to be as close as they were.

 

Finally, the WBAS IS GROWING. Let's shoot 12 stages and do it over 2 full days. We don't need no stinking side matches. Screw that.. people were bone tired and would be more tired if we did 6/ day.. plus, I wondered around until almost 2:30 trying to discover where the side matches were being held and finally had to go as I was MC at the Classic Cowboy dinner.

 

 

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Four stages a day.... rigorous ones.

Three days.

 

These were good to me, well not to me, but a far cry from some other modified Caboy stages.

It will pan out. Everyone had to shoot the same match.

AND, not everyone will like whatever anyway.

My answer..... Let those that don't, step up to the plate to do all it takes to put on the match....

It is a tremendous amount of work. Wayyyyyy off the chart.

Just sayin...

 

Thanks to ALL that contributed to WR 2015. ALL of em.....

 

Bodie

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W/B is not the same animal as CAS, that's why we shoot both for different reasons. If you want a total W/B Match come to Muster at Fort Misery in April the New York State Wild Bunch Championship and see how it is done. We offer a free dinner for the first person to shoot a clean match (monthly match included) and have not given one out yet.
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I have debated on making this post because there are those who are going to disagree, so here goes:

 

Clean Match?  While a great accomplishment when it is done, to make clean matches a goal would ruin WBAS!

 

Analyze the Winter Range cowboy scores and you will notice that a miss can move a shooter ten or more places.  You see shooters with a faster total time being beat by clean shooters.  That leads to a style of shooting that is accuracy first, speed second.  This is just a characteristic of the Rank Point Scoring system but it changes how you shoot to win.

 

In WBAS, if you hold back to make sure you shoot all 10 stages clean you'll get beat.  The fastest Wild Bunch shooters are pushing the envelope on speed and are not worried about taking an occasional miss.  Because with our scoring an occasional miss won't wreck you.  I know you can't miss fast and win; but you can't shoot slow and cautious and win either.  Look at J.T. Wild, he had a stage DQ and still placed 5th overall!  That is one reason I like our Stage Point Scoring so well, it is as close to total time as you can get without using total time.  Therefore a wreck on a stage doesn't destroy your match.  So the goal becomes speed with accuracy and the fastest shooter wins!

 

You want more clean matches?  Make a miss a 10 second penalty (or go back to Rank Point Scoring).  Folks will slow down and make every shot count.  You want to step on the gas and see faster times?  Make a miss a 3 second penalty like in 3GN.

JFN

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J Frank,  I agree. In wild bunch the goal is to shoot the best match possible as quick as possible.  Due to the nature of other gun games I play and the WB matches I have shot it's hard to understand the mind set of "only one clean match" as the game is played now with the number of shots,targets,speed. That "one match clean" is a big deal,it's a rarity. Something to be admired and an achievement when accomplished. I have shot one clean match in WB. I have won a few state championships so for me winning a match is way more common than shooting clean. It's a rare feat to be celebrated. Now if the game changes to say less shooting or easier target presentation so a clean match is common then that feat is diminished ,it's not held in the highest regard. It could even be said if enough shot clean it would be common. I'm sure though everyone could really feel good about there selves but what would really would have been accomplished? Dusty Boddams
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Again, great discussion.  Thanks to all who made it work which includes the shooters.

 

Almost all stages could be shot from the left or right. Shooters choice.  Almost all targets could be shot in any order.  The most complicated shooting order was a double tap Nevada sweep.  We had 10 separate bays this year as opposed to 5 which were shot twice with some changes in the past. This was because we had very little changes to the CAS stages which were plotted out, measured and marked for the cowboy match. We ran 25 shooters through in an hour with very little fuss because everyone cooperated with being efficient. All passed the chrono check and the checking did not show down the match to any degree that I could tell.  We had 18 inch pistol targets at 5 yards as well as dueling trees at about 7 yards so it was hardly a precision match.  It was a good mix.  If you cannot hit a dueling tree target at 7 yards you need to practice.  Hitting it fast is the problem.  Only two people have shot a major match clean and both did not win the match.  I shot a state IDPA match in Mich and was awarded the "most accurate" award.  I did not even come close to winning the match.  The point is doing well and that is not defined by a clean match.  It is a high score that defines a good match as in WB. We had several down range stages and should encourage them if the facilities allow it.  We had very few "muzzle" issues because of the direction of movement choice the shooters had.  We saw very few "finger" issues because we were stressing the issue.

 

I'm sure there could be some improvement but it was a real good match which showcased what WB is all about.  Sure all knock downs might be very good.  You would have issues with how they are set, extra time in resetting, or if the berm had more that one stage in it it would be  impossible.  The extra time involved in setting them which would limit the amount of shooters you could run through.  Further no range has enough knock downs to run such a match.  You could also just paint after each shooter but again you would have berm and time problems. I will point out none of my 4 misses were overlooked.

 

We are gong to try for 3 day 4 stage a day match next year but there are many considerations which will have to be addressed by WR.

 

Thanks to all who made the match run smooth.  If you missed it you missed a good one.

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it would be a great idea if someone could scan the stages so everyone could see them.  I counted 13 hostage or dueling tree pistol targets in the whole match of 295 pistol shots. A real challenge. There was also a rifle plate rack and dueling tree and a pistol tombstone rack.
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