Griff

One thing I've never been interested doing. WB with BP as a propellant. But, I'm glad you had fun!

Actually only the last few. As of ver 16.3 it was still 180 grains. (Jan., 2022) I don't have a WBSHB for 2023, but ver. 17.3 from Feb, 2024 shows 177 grain minimum.

Since i was there at the beginnings of SASS, if not cowboy action itself... I'll let you in on a little, well-known fact at the time. The founders of SASS, aka the "Wild Bunch", were tired of the equipment race that had inundated IPSC. One of their stated goals was not to let Cowboy Action become the equipment race IPSC had become. Short stroked rifles became the norm before they were recognized as such. Most of the rules in cowboy action are in place because someone over stepped the bounds of good sportsmanship. I.e., "if it ain't against the rule, I can do it." And while you say I am being dishonest by preferring something that is disliked by someone else, I would say, please look in the mirror. We just happen to be looking at the issue from opposite sides. I happen to like the game as it was originally governed. 45ACP, .40+ caliber for the rifles... and while I detest the 1897, I didn't moan and cry about having to buy one to play the game. And it wasn't because I dislike pump shotguns... I happen to absolutely love my Remington 870 Riot gun, skeet gun & Wingmaster. But, if I had whined and cried about not being able to use it, and went about claiming it should be allowed 'cause I could use it in 3-Gun... that would be disingenuous. Instead, I went out and bought a couple, 3. When the mdl 12 was approved, I thought, let me give this a whirl and bought one. Mine must not be the best example, as... shhh... I prefer the '97. Let us simply agree to disagree on the base pad issue. If you want to lobby the TG's about changing that , keep it out of the Traditional categories. And lest you think I'm simply anti-base pad, I had to remove several rubber base pads from magazines so they'd comply with the rule at the time... My EDC is a Combat Commander, with its own set of magazines which kept those same ~¼" rubber base pads I removed magazines destined for WB use. I fully recognize their utility and aid to recharging the pistol. But... WB ain't practice for a life n' death encounter. It's a game. As a former sworn peace officer, I carried several different firearms in that career, adapting to them and adapting them to my preferences. However, gun games are not that. Each gun game has its own set of distinctive rules and norms... as well they should, otherwise they become simply mundane... My 3-Gun 1911 has a beavertail, extended thumb safety, slide release and a compensator, along with a stash of 8 round magazines with base pads of various sizes and contours. Nothing in WB precludes an IPSC shooter from participation, simply gives they a reason to buy another gun and develop additional skills. Nothing about trigger time in any gun sport is wasted in another gun sport. God bless.

NOT! Read this excerpt from Ed. 1 of the Wild Bunch Shooter's Handbook: (listed under both Traditional & Modern requirements. In Sept of 2013 this was amended to read: Are ya pickin' up on a trend here? That wording remained in place until 2022. 13 years after the initial rules were established. Emphasis added... Frankly, be glad that you're now allowed a 1/4" of a "natural" material as a base pad.

I don't shoot WB any longer. Not because of any dispute with the rules, but because matches are not convenient to me. So I shoot Historic 3 Gun. But, shoot consistent with SASS rules, as nothing in H3G sez I can't. Although I do happen to like starting a stage in condition one. All of my magazines have welded flat baseplates, except one, a stainless Kim-Pro which has a flat removeable baseplate. But, then again, I learned to manipulate a 1911 during VN, using issue guns and GI magazines. Frankly, if you need to rely on a baseplate pad, whether it's leather, plastic, aluminum, steel, rubber or banana peels, you're relying on a crutch. Learn to seat a flat plate magazine. Tune your magazines to seat properly in your 1911 and your need for a extended pad goes away. Sloppy magazine control demands the use of a pad. By demanding pads, you're admitting to being a sloppy magazine handler. Much like the Frontiersman category in SASS cowboy matches... WB was never intended to be as "easy" as shooting a 1911 in other sports. Why should it be? What would be the draw for truly dedicated 1911 fans. If you enjoy shooting other gun games with a 1911 where the use of a basepad is allowed, mastering magazine control without one will not hurt your performance in those other games. Frankly, I don't recall any of you relatively new folks here when the fight was to end the "cowboy w/a 1911" era of 5 round maximums in magazines. Using what is legal in another shooting sport to justify your stance on what you think should be legal in SASS WB is disingenuous at best, at worst, whiney, cry-baby bull spit. Go ahead, take the high road, being disengenuos. Wild Bunch is based on a movie released in 1969, depicting events in 1913... Dig up a still of a 1911 with a base pad in that movie, then maybe your request has some merit... but be advised, it has the same chance as getting Broomhandle approved. But, maybe I overstep?

Hmmm... the OP asked a question and received a very plausible answer in the first response. Unless you were involved in drafting either set of rules... it's just speculation on your part, and your speculation is just as valid as the next person's. Nothing to get worked up about. The earliest rule book I have digitized (1989), specifies that #4 shot is the largest allowable. Somewhere I have rule books from EOT in 1986 & the original SASS rule book from 1987. As I recall, both specify the same. So that rule pre-dates my earliest recollections in cowboy action. If that rule follows the trend of other rules, it's in place because someone use a larger shot size and created a real or perceived safety hazard. 'Nough said. I've used #7-½, 8 & 9 shot in both CAS and WB and haven't encountered a difference worth noting. The earliest WB Handbook I have digitized is from 2009, the first edition and specifies the largest size shot as #6. No explanation provided. GJ's speculation is certainly plausible. Maybe PM Happy Jack, as I seem to recall his being involved in drafting the initial WB rules. Or, at least an early member of the WBROC. Really? Differences of opinion are inevitable. Expressing varied opinions are what make us THINK. It's called communicating. And communicating is what makes a community. SASS is a big community... I don't know anyone that agrees with EVERYTHING... And if they do... I have to wonder they've ever had an independent thought?

After reloading for the 45 Auto for 50+ years, without a checker of any sort, 1st on a RCBS Jr single stage, then since 1987 on a Dillon 550B, no problems to speak of*. Until WB came along, I'd only loaded two bullets in the 45 Auto. A H&G 68 for target work and Speers 4477 HP for SD. They simply worked in all 4 of my 1911s, a Gold Cup, surplus Navy issue Colt, a parts gun I built and a Combat Commander. This entire time I loaded using the same RCBS die set until I got the Dillon. So... in 1987 I began using a Dillon Carbide sizer, but the kept using RCBS seat/crimp die. Frankly, the 45 Auto is so easy to load for, it surprises me when folks have problems. Cases don't grow in length like a rifle cartridge, if anything, they get beat a little shorter, but that's never seemed to become a problem. I've never encountered a split case. When I put my Combat Commander on my "duty gun" list in 1982, the department armorer found an issue I'd been totally unaware of... Something he called "ramping"... Now, all of a sudden my carry gun could feed full wadcutters. I still somewhat haphazardly load my 45 Auto rounds... a 200 grain RFN in front of 4.3 grains of TiteGroup and a Winchester WLP yield ~800 fps for a PF of around 160. This load works a treat in my two Taylor's Tactical 1911s, a Rock Island, and the 4 mentioned above. They've all been "ramped", had the rails polished and run with oil. Most issues with the 1911 platform are with the magazines and operator. You simply cannot "limp wrist" one. While Tripp Research & Wilson Combat mags are probably the best, my CMC Shooting Star mags have served me well.** The worst issue with the 45 Auto is small primer cases. * Besides... ain't an occasional bump with the palm part of the standard "manual of arms" for the 1911? 😁 ** I don't care who the maker is... when folks walk on 'em... they're pretty much toast! So watch where you put your clodhoppers! Learn how to keep your magazines clean, follower straight and lips bent. I'm still using some military mags issued in the early '70s. With proper maintenance, they can last a lifetime. (Theirs, not yours, metal does fatigue).

Ok... if you're trying to load SPs into normal 45 Auto brass, I can see a looming issue. Staying within the recommended dosages, I can't foresee a problem with loosening primer pockets. Unlike Joe or Boggus, I don't think I've ever met a 45 Auto case I didn't like. Well... until it starts getting torn up by the extractor.

Got it, and replied.

Not really. Can't think of anything I need.

I have two Winchester take-down shotguns I'd like to sell. Both dobs are from Winchester's website. So... simply my best guess. 1st is a D series, from 1908, 12 gauge, 21-3/8" bbl. It has small finger grooves cut in wrist. I haven't ever fired it. I bought it some 10 years ago, as back up for my Chinester trench gun for WB, but have never needed it. For Sale in DFW area. FTF only. Make offer. If I name a price, it'll be high. 2nd is a Winchester mdl 12 dob in 1917, 12 gauge, 18-¾" bbl. I bought this in 2019 from Texas Ghost, again for use in WB as a back up or primary shotgun. I've used it a few times, but frankly, I don't run it as smoothly as my Chinester Trench gun. I've only used new Win AA LNLR in it. For sale in DFW area, FTF only. Again, make offer, if I name a price it'll be high. PM if you're local to DFW. We can meet, or if we're acquainted, come out to my place and run a few shells thru them and fondle 'em, if you have my phone #, don't call, I can't hear the phone.

Yes, but was the question... "...keep rifle not last rule?" Or... "get rid of of rifle not last rule?"

IMO, it's just being inconsiderate of everyone that has been using the large primer 45Auto brass for decades. So yep, user name fits. Folks using the small primer brass are simply making it harder for those set up for large primer 45Auto to reload. Brass is not cheaper. I haven't found anywhere that sells new, unprimed small primer brass, and those that sell used brass charge the same, whether small or large primer. I will not return your brass to you, when it winds up in my brass bag, I put it in my scrap brass bin and sell it. In my view, small primer 45 Auto brass is probably the brain child of some "anti-gun" engineer who thought it a great way to infuriate gun folks. Very much how I feel about Hodgdon and its Pyrodex rusting agent that burns.

The Survey Data indicates there was a 7th question that's not listed on the Survey Questions. "Rifle Last"? Given that I have no idea how that question was worded, makes it impossible to interpret the data.

Yes, small pistol primers is an issue... For those who have been reloading the 45ACP for years... simply because sometimes the brass pickers get a few in my return bucket... I loaded 500 45ACP Friday in anticipation of attending a match (it rained... read: I overslept), and encountered 4 SPP cases. Which, since I load on a 550C only interrupted my loading cycle, whereas if I loaded on a auto-indexing machine it would have been a bit more problematic if I didn't catch the failure of a primer to seat. I'm wont to return them to their rightful user, AT FASTBALL SPEED! (aka: as fast as my left arm can hurl them)! Being as you're new... maybe those at your club will be more forbearing. Anyway, welcome to one of the funner games around!

Tisas Safety Recall

I can't tell you anything about your particular gun/model; but... ANY factory gun is going to need the attention of a competent 'smith, well versed with the requirements of a competition gun of that type, before it can be truly "competition ready."

I don't know of any American "soldiers" that wore the Navy "dixie cup".

Once again, I can only hope to attend. Every one I've I've been able to attend has been excellent... raising the bar will be challenging, as I can't imagine how it can get better!

I have two Taylor Tactical's and a RIA, all made by Armscor. The two Taylor's have had action jobs, and are ramped... done before either had a round downrange. But... my #1 WB gun is one of the Taylor's, the only stoppages have been magazine related. Threw away all but two of my old (VN era & issue) military mags, problems solved. I'm using Chip McCormick "Shooting Stars" magazines and have no issues. Several gunmakers are using Armscor parts in their builds, and while they may have different specs than RI, apparently something has to have translated over into their general production, if my samples are indeed, representative. I put my 2 Taylor's up against Colt products, of which I own 3. IMO, they measure up admirably.

Installing the UniqueTek Shell Plate Bearing kit on my 550B smoothed out the movement of the shellplate such that spillage is a thing of the past.

When you're driving into the range, but before you exit your vehicle. Yes, but military and former military adherents to the 1911 have been taught that method of carry and are quite comfortable with it... no need for braggadocio.

I had this set put on both my traditional 1911s: Front: and Rear: What a difference! If I recall correctly, several other shooters at our club use the same set.

Yes.

I ain't exactly a speed demon with my SAA, but I can get shot-to-shot split times faster with it, than my 1911 can cycle. And that was with 200 grain pills in both rifle & pistol (.45s each)