Garrison Joe

The rules are unfortunately not written well in this area. As they stand, illegal rounds fired are counted as misses only if they are hits on the correct target type. It would be MUCH simpler if the rules just said - "All illegal rounds fired are counted as misses." (unless some more severe penalty is earned such as hitting a non-expendable prop or hitting close to an individual). This would be in addition to the P for firing illegal ammo. As it is, the rules have a loophole that allows extra ammo to be dumped safely down range as long as you are not hitting the correct type of target. Good luck, GJ

Couple of tomato stakes, too, out of 02 series Norincos. ;D Just glad that Coyote Cap taught them how to improve their version through the years.

PG - There really is a major technical and safety reason that folks in the cowboy game don't encourage Wild Bunch style shooting at their matches - it's that shooting a 1911 and a fully-stoked hammerless pump shotgun takes extra rules that the cowboy handbooks don't cover, and extra training for shooters, TOs and other safety officers. The cowboy folks know that getting the extra rules in place past the existing Territorial Governors group and the Wild Bunch leadership would be a tough job, and getting enough of the cowboy safety officer community trained would be even more work. Some have safety concerns that they would not understand coaching shooters through solutions to jammed guns. Some have a strong aversion to any semi-auto pistol. Requiring that they open up cowboy matches to WB shooting is the ultimate in selfishness. Standing up a separate but equal WB structure is a hard exercise, but it has been pretty well done, and I heartily salute all our WB folks who have worked for 5 years to make happen what we have now. They have been: Not tossing out excuses, not dodging issues, not sticking their heads in the sand. But making proactive, positive progress toward one more great shooting venue. Sorry that does not satisfy you. Sorry that you have felt the need to stir the pot in both forums. Sorry you could not hear what several of us have said about this, and that you want to slam anyone who disagrees with you. But I am sorry the most that you feel the need or "privilege" to post rudely in reply to one of our dearest ladies in the game, who works very hard moderating both forums, and has a tremendous history here of helping hundreds of folks. :( Allie Mo - thanks go to you for your great reservoir of patience! Good bye. GJ

Mod 12s are considerably improved in the internals. Better lockup, better shell control while feeding, better ejection. Weaker firing pin, more complex takedown if completely tearing it apart. The Mod 12 is normally much smoother. I have shot both. Have actually gone back to the 97, and Chinese guns at that, because I can run them faster without the occasional hangup. Once you have learnt to run a 97 "like you stole it," it's hard to go back to the smooth finesse that a Model 12 seems to want. A Model 12 is no more a hammerless 97 than a 707 was a propless DC3. Both were great airplanes and both are great shotguns! Good luck, GJ

Yep, Yep. Proper relieving of the pinch point between the grip safety and the hammer tip has always made it possible to stop pinching the web of the hand. Fixed four 1911s in that manner, couple of Colts, an RIA and a Springer.

Because WB is not just SASS with a different handgun. Because WB ticks off some cowboy shooters when they see it shot, hear about it being shot, or have it shot on their own posse. Because WB uses different rules and that might make some shooters' brains explode. Because there would be too much brass to have to shag. Because folks would forget to check the model 12. Because a WB shooter might whoop up on them and take overall. Because the targets would be too close and too large for a WB shooter. Because there would not be enough targets to be shot. Because no one would pick up and return empty magazines. Because someone might pick up a fired gun other than the shooter. Pick any number of your choices from the reasons above and you might have a start. ;D Besides, one meaning of matriculation is enrollment and it would not be much like going back to school to shoot WB in a Cowboy match. :) ;) :D ;D :o Really, though, WB is significantly different and would be real limited at a Cowboy shoot. I like the additional venue to shoot at, with WB being separate, being tougher stages, requiring more accuracy and more ability to handle recoil. Good luck, GJ

Here's a simple suggestion to remove from the WB Shooter's Handbook a definition that is not used, and is defined in a very circular manner (meaning it refers to other rules in a vague manner). The next time there is some rules editing being done would be soon enough. Nowhere in the Shooters Handbook is the phrase "committed to a firearm" actually used. (Maybe it was in an early version; I don't remember.) The phrase "committed to the stage" is well defined and used several times in the rules. So, can we please take out the unused definition "committed to a firearm," before it gets confused with the "committed to the stage" wording? Having that definition in there seems to imply there is some reason to be watching for when the shooter has committed to use a firearm. This is just confusing and unneeded. Thanks, GJ

Yep, Wild Bunch generally is a "reloading required" sport. No one really makes excellent ammo, although there are a couple of adequate ammo sources. Powder River has ammo that was spec'd out by Evil Roy. There have been generally good reports about it, after early lots were a little light to meet Power Factor. http://www.powderrivercartridge.com/Cowboy-Action-Ammo-s/28.htm Good luck, GJ

Last round failure to strip the cartridge from the mag is a pretty common failure. Usual cause for that is a weak mag spring. As with most other coil springs in a 1911, the correct spring pressure is key to smooth and reliable operation of the pistol. For loaded service magazines, I see recommendations to unload and leave unloaded (for several days) at least every few months. Many police departments are reported to have the officer use the loaded service mags and ammo for routine range time, then leave them unloaded for a while. The better the quality of springs in the magazines, the less need I would perceive to periodically unload the mag. If you are talking about our game, I always empty mags at end of the match and leave empty until next match. Good luck, GJ

I'll bring an extra 100 rounds of lead ammo for 8x57 Mauser, plus the rifle. See you BAMM'ers there! Good luck, GJ

Gunsite? With the founder looking like this for years and years? http://www.frfrogspad.com/hat.jpg 8) But, then again, there's this: Good luck, GJ

Yes, the Cimarron guns are imported from Armscorp (Philippines). The quality of the Armscorp guns has been getting better quickly. Some important internal fire control parts are sintered metal (MIM), which I don't like to depend upon to hold a good action job. Depends upon how much you plan to shoot it, and how particular you are with great accuracy and reliability, versus how low the price is. All those are important, but personal, choices. I doubt the OP's criteria match mine. My criteria has led me to not want to shoot an Armscorp gun in competition. And yes, I have (an early) one (labeled as Rock Island Armory). Good luck, GJ

Yee HAW! It would be nice to know where my 1911s shoots at 90 or 100 yards, assuming I can make next year's state WB match. Guess I'll have to put that on my list of todos. Thanks for the info! Shows just how devious you pards can be, huh? GJ

And was there a clean stage by the winner? Time? Cool. 8) Sounds like devil man would have been kinda hard. Were shooters allowed the use of a door frame or window frame as an arm rest? GJ

Perhaps we could prevail on you kind Texans to post the stage instructions for a Bammbalooza, for us unfortunates out here in the badlands of New Mexico (where Invasions by Mexican Insurgents were a problem in the 1900s, not just today). Good luck, GJ Not withstanding the disagreements that Texas had with the same fellers in the 1800s.

Original 1911's are very hard to find at a reasonable price, thus making shooting them a "sport for the rich". Colt made some 1911's about 5 years ago through their custom shop. Although these have all sold, thery do come up on the auction sites occasionally. The 1911 is not all that much fun for most folks to shoot - you need a fairly large hand to master it, and the control surfaces are small. There were lots of reasons why the 1911A1 was introduced. None of the 1911s (originals or reproductions) were made with larger sights - just the very small and low mil sights of the time. If that is what you Really want, and its more for collecting than shooting, then watching the auctions is probably going to be your fastest way to satisfaction. Try AuctionArms or GunBroker. Otherwise, the fastest way to a good Traditional class pistol is a Colt Series 70 or 80 government model, both of which are in production, a Springfield MilSpec, or a Remington R1. Any dealer who can do the slighest bit of research can find you a new one. Any of the auction sites can turn up guns ranging from beaters to almost new in box. Unlike Cowboy, the market is probably not large enough to find a gunsmith yet that is buying new guns and working them to "Wild Bunch ready." Although Wild Bodie Tom or Goatneck Clem might be willing to do it on request, and you would have a fine piece when they finish. Good luck, GJ

Have not heard. Mica McGuire would be the feller in charge. I'd guess - probably not, since it was not done last year, and last year's attendance at side matches, even those specially designed for WB stuff, was dismal. Good luck, GJ

It WAS a ton of fun shooting BAMM! Specially for those of us who slung up and shot off our own hind legs! Let's do that again. Good luck, GJ

Here's an interesting snippet showing research that is closing in on being fielded, for you riflemen. http://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-successfully-tests-first-small-caliber-self-guided-164605392.html No, none of that technology was used during the BAMM side match at EOT. Good luck, GJ

Yes, your cleared guns can be taken to the unloading table by another shooter, when you need assistance. Same as coming to the line. If the assistant finds a long gun with the action very close to being closed, he should call the TO over to take a look before moving the gun. If at the loading table there is found to be a live round still in a long gun, the assistant will not be the one to be penalized (just as in Cowboy). Just the shooter. Good luck, GJ

Compensation to bring a shooter back to "normal" - Sure! Advantage gained by the accommodation - Not on your life. Athletic shoes - unless a severe medical condition - immediate Match DQ But, picture taking time may or may not be what was worn during match time. Pay attention to what was actually worn during the match. Is there a quantitative way to measure how much is enough? No, but a survey of a few other experienced match members should give you a good idea. Good luck, GJ

I'd guess we'll have one or two posses shooting a set of bays on Saturday that the rest of the posses won't shoot till later in the match. And, dang it troopers, thanks for waiting to sign up till the last minute. Now with 5 posses all of a sudden, I've got to round up another 3 of our Boy Scouts each of the three match days for brass picking. I hope you pards can tip 'em some, they always need some new equipment. Good luck, GJ

When the velocity versus powder weight "curve" is flat (if you graph it out on paper or a spreadhseet graphing package), then "interpolating" between the two end points of known weights and velocities gives you a good estimate of an intermediate powder/velocity result. Extrapolating beyond the end points of measured data is much more risky. And, smokeless powder rarely has a linear weight to velocity relationship - it tends to be progressive, and the velocity starts trending upward from being linear as you add more powder. Until you blow up a gun! But, the biggest variation (and fallacy in trying to go from published loading data to what happens in your gun without actual range testing) is that YOUR gun won't hold the same velocities as ANY OTHER test gun. There WILL be some differences, due to chamber dimensions, barrel dimensions, type of brass, lube on your bullet, minor differences in seating depth, and tons of other variables. So, it's usually best to find a pal with a chronograph and test your load in YOUR gun, especially if you plan to be hugging the cliff edge at the low end of the allowed power factor (PF) range. But, if you just ask here, we can tell you from experience that almost everyone shooting a 200 grain bullet from .45 auto with WST in their 5" barrel 1911 will be shooting a load of 4.7 grains of WST, or slightly higher. That will make 165 to 170 PF in most guns. In mine, it is repeatedly 167, 168, or 169 every time I or a big match director chronos my loads. 4.6 grains in my guns typically only makes 155 PF. That is TOO CLOSE to the minimum (150) for me to ever bet the results of a match on being able to stay on the good side of the PF line. So, I shoot a 4.7 grain load. Good luck, GJ

External modifications not listed in the rule books are not acceptable. Is this an external mod? yes Is this listed in the rule book as an acceptable mod? no So the answer has to be? not acceptable You can try filing a modification request with the powers that be, and it might get decided that this can be a modification they will write into the rules or at least give you and acceptable-use modification response. Good luck, GJ

So, the lockup is that after firing a shot with the barrel raised, the action slide lock does not unlock the forearm so that you can rack out the shell, until after you have pushed forward firmly on the forearm? Sounds like the action slide lock is dirty and needs a good cleaning. There's a helical coil spring circling the mag tube under the forearm. Make sure that is intact (they break) and clean. If that is not it, then next place to look is at the action slide lock and spring. It's a part of the trigger group, and the lock sticks up from the top middle of the trigger group assembly. Part 57 on the diagram referenced below http://www.gunslot.com/pictures/winchester-model-12-diagram The trigger group can be a pain to reassemble, so don't take it apart unless you have done a few. Spray some bore cleaner down in there and work parts until it seems to be moving more freely. Recoil is supposed to help push the forearm forward to let that unlock. Real light loads, you may have to assist with a forward push. Good luck, GJ