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You’ve got some good advice here and some poor advice. I’m going to against the grain with a couple things, though. You’ll hear people say “front sight”! Forget it! Your mind should know now how to line up the sights on target. MUCH more important is proper trigger manipulation. You can spend all day lining up the sights perfectly but when you jerk the trigger all that is moot. Dry fire practice and slow fire target practice will help. But everyone flinches to some degree at some point. Controlling it is the key. That’s the only place dummy rounds are handy loaded in the mag. It will show you your flinch. Also, forget “muscle memory”. It’s a fallacy. Your brain tells every muscle what to do, when to do it and how much to do it. Don’t pay attention to where the empty mag falls. Too many people waste too much time making sure they land on the table or carpet. All you want is it out of the gun. As for malfunctions, properly tuned guns with quality ammo and proper mags mitigate malfunctions to practically nil. Also, no need to go to the line with a “Barney” mag. That will be the mag you grab when you need a full mag.

Those whiners will never shoot it but they are the ones that have caused the s@&tshow it is now. They’re the ones that said they would shoot when we went to 7 in the mag, when we went to tactical reloads, when we puts base pads on. And every time we tried to accommodate them, they just come up with another reason not to shoot.

Well, it is called Wild Bunch ACTION SHOOTING! If I want entertainment, I’ll turn on the movie and watch it. For me the fun is in the challenge. Figuring out how I can shoot a stage to the best of my abilities. What can I do to better myself. I’ve said for years that WBAS isn’t for everyone. Neither is benchrest shooting, NASCAR racing or brain surgery.

Look what a good friend surprised me with yesterday at our monthly WB match in the carpark whilst Jenorado and I were unpacking our cart. A hand made, lined with tanned kangaroo skin, customised with a tooled bear, 1911 holster for my SR Ruger which up unto yesterday I had been making do using my single action holster. Thank you Rusty for handcrafting this for me, you bowled me over with this kind and generous gift yesterday 🥰

Like Boggus, I have used springs from many suppliers, but recently have gone with a lot of Springco. We are lucky to have Boggus to take care of a lot of problems with Wild Bunch guns. With the loss of Bodie and Goatneck in recent years he is one of the few who specializes in Wild Bunch guns. He is VERY good with them.

I did not find pistol and shotgun targets at 3-5yds fun, and I don't feel the drive down from Tucson was worth it for a match like that. I still like to shoot some local matches to support the folks around here that put them on, but this mindset of bringing all the targets in that close has got to go. It's not safe, and it's not fun. No shade to Zona -- he puts on quality, well thought-out matches, but let's put the targets out further.

For shotgun makeups?😆

Wow....Just WOW. Some of these comments are just.....WOW The new TG system has taken on the responsibility of fixing all of this. Don't like what's happened? Get your club to elect you WBTG and fix the problem. .38's isn't written in stone. Fix it. Don't just bitch about it, become part of the solution, or shut up. I talked to a lot of shooters, here in Arizona who said "I shoot (fill in the blank) and I don't want to change from condition 1 to SASS" or "I don't have a 40 caliber or larger rifle", or "I don't have a Model 12". Now that most of that is the norm in WBAS, they say "Oh, I got rid of those guns years ago". "I don't have time for another shooting sport". etc. They never intended to shoot WBAS, they just wanted an excuse. Now the excuse is gone, they have to face reality. Don't like the, current, system? Get involved and fix it....Or shut up.

Don't look for your mags. You don't need to pull them in a specific order. Just drop your hand and grab what you touch. Keep the pistol up when you change mags, don't lower, insert, raise, takes too much time and you have to regain the target. You don't need to hammer the bottom of the mag into the pistol, just put it in right the first time. Whirlwind Wendy taught me all this.

More time is wasted on mag changes than anything else in WBAS. Don't take the gun too far down from the line of sight and practise with your eyes CLOSED. You have to feel the change to get it right. Watch shooters, most have the gun in a lowered position and canted when changing magazines. Both are time wasters. Many change the position from mag change to mag change, they don't know where they have the gun and have to look for it. GOOD LUCK.

The case is being slammed into the slide wall during ejection, probably around the ejection port opening. This is very common when the geometry (shape) of the extractor (which you just changed) is not yet fitted to your gun. The dent comes from impact, while the sideways scratches are caused by the high-speed "twist" imparted during ejection as the case is pulled on the right side by the extractor hook and hit in the left lower rear by the ejector. Look for where there is a shiny spot of "brass rub" on the slide. Often it's on the lower side of the ejection port. But some times in other locations. There is more work to do when fitting a new extractor than just setting the tension. One of the best but short descriptions that I have found is here, written by Bill Wilson: https://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm Look at the very last diagram very closely. If you understand all of the angles and beveling he shows, you may not have to do more study. OK, so you probably do not understand why he is so particular about EVERY facet (machined cut) shown on that extractor tip. So, read this one next, and SEVERAL times, as it is pure gold! https://www.1911forum.com/threads/steve-in-allentown-extractor-fitting.829865/ And the extractor section of John Marshall's instructions: https://sightm1911.com/lib/tech/reliability_secrets.htm He makes this statement that speaks volumes about just "slapping in " any company's new extractor: "Most factory extractors and many aftermarket extractors need attention to achieve the optimum in reliability." OK, the lazy way to solve cases hitting the slide, is to cut away the slide where the shiny brass impact spot shows up. The "lowered ejection port" found on lots of 1911s from the factory is this kind of fix, whether a gun really needs it or not. Opening the ejection port like that lets a factory get "no contact" ejection without having to do special fitting. John Browning did not think that it was necessary - his slide designs did not use a lowered ejection port. Case denting was fixed by hand tuning the extractor tip to turn loose of the case rim so that the case ejects straight out to the right, or even upwards at 2 o'clock. I'm sure you have seen 1911s that toss brass straight up to land on the shooter's head, as well. That too is due to a poorly shaped extractor hook. A tighter grip on the case by the highest part of the hook will pull the case out high (12 to 2 o'clock). A tighter fit on the case rim down low in the hook pulls the case out so it slams into the slide wall under the ejection port. Also, check that you have the firing pin stop fitted so that the extractor is not twisting in it's bore. A problem called clocking. Can cause the extractor to turn and hold onto the case in a deleterious manner. Also, look for severe gouge in the extractor cut of the fired cases. A sharp or poorly shaped extractor hook will put a "horizontal gouge" in the angle part of the extractor cut. good luck, GJ

Just a shout out and a Thank You for the certificate for a Wild Bunch rig, donated to the Kansas State Wild Bunch Championship held this past weekend. I was lucky enough to win this. They support SASS at numerous shoots I have attended. As do other leather makers . I have used mernickles products and never disappointed. If you see them stop and Thank them for their support and take a look around.

Many seemed to have loaded the .45 acp for a power factor closer to 160, to ensure making the cut. Not unreasonable for the power factor to be 150-160 for the .45 For the rifle, it would be easy to get to a PF of 120 with a 158 gr bullet and many of the common powders used for the .38 special, according to the loading manuals that I have looked at. Going to a .38 +P or even a .357, which is the chamber anyway, may require a different powder, and I would bet that some would use that (getting another powder) to PREVENT them from shooting WB. In any case, I am in favor of a higher (than 60) PF for the rifle, and continuing the 150 minimum for the 1911, .45 acp. And, I would chrono at State and above matches.

Please don't use SPP 45acp brass in a wild bunch match. The way the 1911's fling brass all over the place, others WILL get some of your brass. If you absolutely must, then: 1. Mark your brass with a heavy sharpie mark across the bottom or even across the sides if possible, and 2. Let your posse know what you are shooting and how you marked it. Thank you.

Dang, sounds like a great match. I almost wish I had shot it. Oh well.

I am watching the evolution of Wild Bunch with a great deal of interest, as I enjoy it as much (and maybe more than...!) Cowboy Action Shooting. Evolution does not reward that which is best; it rewards that which is best suited to survive, given a certain set of conditions at the time. I was intrigued by the match; the abrupt changes made to WB were undertaken to increase the interest in the game, and, given the modestly robust turnout, with a host of new attendees, may have worked. But I feel like the match itself ran contrary to that ethos. I shot it, and did reasonably well. But, this is the entertainment business, and, listening to shooters who attended, I heard a few things which stuck with me. 1.) "I was never having any fun. I was working the whole time." 2.) "It was humbling; perhaps even humiliating, to have one shooter clean the match." 3.) "When the Super Bowl comes around, they don't move the goalposts back another 20 yards." I'm not sure what the game plan is, but I didn't think it was a great match. I respect all the work that went into it, and the workers who made it so. Also, I will shoot whatever you put in front of me. But the Fast Guys (and Gals!) will still win, and match organizers might do well to consider the experience they are offering for the 80% who want to shoot safely and just have a good time. Cheers, FJT

Regardless of how well tuned your 1911 is or how well you reload your ammo, knowing how to safely and quickly clear a jam is not something to be overlooked. Things happen and I've seen far too many newer shooters struggle with what to do when it happens. Going to slide lock, manually pulling mag from the mag well, clearing a FTF safely and indetifying what can't quickly be fixed should be learned/practiced. When things decide to go wrong, it can really eat up time fixing it. Totes

Boggus makes a great point a smooth trigger press makes the difference in hitting the target. Dry fire practice can not be stressed enough, start slow and in time a smooth press can be compressed to quite quick times. I used to at the end of a practice session ( this requires a paper Target). AT 3 to 5 yards put 3 shots into one hole it will show you what you are doing right or wrong. I still like the front sight . I agree with Happy Jack about time and magazine changes wasting time, make sure to get a good grip with the index finger pointing up the slide towards the bullet, you have a lot of practice pointing use it to get the magazine in the well. Put the flat of the magazine to the flat of the mag well and rotate it. ST

It’s an honor to have shooters like yourself using my guns.

I installed the new Boyd's hardwood stock and it looks great! no fitting needed. I am going to keep the original one but I threw the ugly synthetic 3D printed junk in the trash. The foregrip was a breeze with the tool

Maybe there were only six of us shooting, but I'll take it! First time shooting the newly acquired 1897 Winchester with no issues. All in all, it's been a pretty good week with my first ever match win and clean shoot, 10 year anniversary with my wife, and the presidential election results.

In the "early days" when we first set up Wild Bunch we followed the target mfgrs. recommendation on distances. We set pistol targets at 10-12 yds. SG targets at 12-15 yds and rifle at close to 20 yds. It was a lot of fun. Aparently what is fun has changed but the lawyers haven't.

How Close Should They Be? Hummm . . . What an interesting question. I believe the answer to be this: It depends on whom you are asking? Ask the persons who shot in the El Rey / La Reina categories at cowboy matches when they are lumped into the Modern or Traditional WB Categories at the State or higher level because there weren't five or more persons in their categories and the match director would not open up those Senior categories for whatever reason. Yup - been places where this has happened. Ask the persons who have shot stages where the scenarios are so complicated that 90% of the posse they are on received a Procedural. Ask those persons who have to struggle seeing rifle/pistol targets that are set at the back of distant berms where the front sight of the pistol is larger than the targets. And of all the places I have been shooting WB, very few clean the stages, no matter how the range is set. So am I advocating targets being set up close and personal. Not by any means. I know how I set WB targets when we had our range. Targets were 16"x"16' for squares and circles were 16" in diameter for our club. The pistol targets were set anywhere between 18' to 22'. Rifle targets at around 35', rifle/pistol targets at 25' and shotgun targets around 27'. I always used a tape measure. The Texas Stars, dueling trees, hostage/hostage taker targets were right at the 15' mark. These are just what I did and your mileage vary at your own clubs. I will make another observation . At State level Cowboy Match in the state where I live, the then President of the club made some remarks that went something like this: As he stood at the front of the audience he surveyed the trophies laid out to the front and sides of him. As he addressed the audience, he stated that statically about 10% of the audience would receive the those trophies. The other 90% of the audience were there to watch and see who were awarded those trophies. He went on to further say, those 10% of the audience receiving those trophies, would probably be in the top 10% no matter where they went. He state that he was writing stages, he struggled with who should he be writing a match for? Those top 10% who will continue to be in the top 10% no matter how challenging a match is or the 90% who will come back to support the club knowing that most will never have a chance at wining an award or ever seeing they names in the top 10% of whatever match they are attending. I believe that same challenge should be applied to any Cowboy or WB Match no matter what the level of the match is. Your audience will dictate what to write. No matter which group stages are being written for, attempt to make a challenge for everyone without writing stages that are only for the top 10%. In other words, everyone's organization is different. Do what works for you at your organization. When you travel and you don't care for the hosting clubs written stages let your pocket book do the talking. Thanks for reading - J.J. PS - Remember, all of those writing stages for any match, this is an entertainment business. Too hard, too close, too far away, too easy - well I'm sure you get the jest.

Just my 2 cents, after shooting the World Championship Wild Bunch Match at this years 2024 EOT, to me the match was nothing but a cowboy match with a 1911. There was no challenge to the match, target sets were the same as the Cowboy match, with maybe a couple of added Shotgun targets. Target sizes were big and close, with a couple of plates racks to engage. I believe SASS will continue to lose veteran and seasoned Wild Bunch shooters under the current rules. Whatever you are attempting to gain in new shooters, you will lose in the veterans, who loved and enjoyed the challenge and variety of targets and scenarios of the original basic style Wild Bunch matches. Wild Bunch is not a speed match as depicted in your comments in the new rules booklet, page 4, version 17.4, dated April 10, 2024. Maybe an Open Category or a Mild Bunch side match, would be a b etter place to start, to collect information and drive interest. Power factor, even for .38 ammo should still be required, as with weapons (1911) safety checks. It's suppose to be different than Cowboy Action, with a greater challenge. Not a match where lots of clean match pins are awarded for accuracy and speed. Let's get the 28, 35 & 42 pistol round count back in the game. Pistol only stages with lots of targets. Rifle round counts in the 5 to 10 per stage. Shotgun- 4, 6 & 8 rounds to a stage. Poppers, swingers, action target sets. Again, just my 2 cents. The old way was better. I'm afraid the new way will end up being a Cowboy version of fast and furious with a 1911.

I shoot left handed, I wouldn't want to swap mag release sides even if it were legal. I use my middle finger to drop the mag and have my index finger outside the trigger guard hovering above the slide release while changing mags. mag in finger down on slide release then back on trigger, fast. Practice practice practice.

So I did it... Much handier now...

I got my hands on some WST and thought this was interesting. These are 5 shot averages at the same powder charges with 230gr bullets. I would have to shoot them again to feel the perceived recoil. When shooting them I went from 3.6gr of TG to 4.2gr of WST so of course the felt recoil went up with the big power factor step up. Looking at the cases after shooting the WST ones are much cleaner on the inside than TG. 3.6 3.8 4.0 4.2 4.4 4.6 TG 683.2 717.0 758.6 785.3 829.0 847.6 WST 685.0 721.2 751.4 795.2

Lyman cast bullet handbook shows almost exactly the same weights of WST or Titegroup make the same velocities with a 230 grain slug. The maximum pressure listed in handbook with TG is higher than maximum for WST, as are velocities. So that establishes a safety margin A 4.2 grain WST load with the 230 grain cast bullet is a favorite (even a standard) of many WB shooters, and it's what I load for knockdown targets. So, a great place to start would be 4.2 grains of TiteGroup and that 230 grain slug loaded to put the lowest part of the nose (where it tapers out to the full bullet shank diameter) right at the mouth of the case. Then you can chrono that and probably find that to make about 710 FPS. You can step up slightly from there if desired. Each 1911 I've ever loaded for shoots a different velocity with any given load, so running bullets over a chronograph or LabRadar is recommended. good luck, GJ

Folks, just like on the SASS Wire, there are scammers here, too. One reached out to Dusty Boddams about a deal he and I made 3-4 years ago. His info is going to the police and banks. He sent me his routing number and bank account.

Just wanted to close the loop here. THANK YOU to everyone that directed me the @Boggus Deal firing pin solution! Got mine in the mail today and 10 min later was out test firing it. What a great solution! I'm all set now and the M12 is much smoother. NOTE: I did leave the bolt lock/retaining lever installed as I really don't notice it interfering with the action at lease on my M12. Ready for my next WB Match! Totes

There were a lot of SDQ. Too many of the adjacent stages had targets painted opposite, in ex. one stage the red was a multi hit and black targets were single hits. The next stage the targets were painted in the opposite way and added to confusion. The kill em all stage, was challenging for the shooters and TO alike since there were only 7 targets to a position and you could not shoot targets at the next position. This lead to lots of clearing guns for movement and SDQ. Every stage was rifle not last, which was found to be needed based on the prior year's speed rifle sidematch with 38s. We need to get back to a 150PF, so we can keep the game playable as you want. First five stages offered a little more flexibility in how the stages were shot vs the last five.

There was an, uploading, computer glitch. Scores should be posted on EOT site tonight. Match was challenging. Only 1 clean match, Holy Terror. Lots of movement, some small, dueling tree, targets. Think all had an interesting time. I imagine, next week, will have more reports as folks come home.

I have a couple custom 1911's I really like to shoot in Modern, but they take more time/care in making the ammo they like. I really enjoy shooting them, so I take the extra steps to ensure the ammo is 100% what they like. Before those, my wife and I both shot Colts. Right out to the box, they would feed dang near anything. A little tuning and they were super reliable and not the least bit picky about ammo. As a TO for WB, you see a lot of shooters struggle with ammo issues, mag issues and gun issues. Whatever you decide on, I recommend you have someone go through it if you're not knowledgeable in the platform and tune to your ammo/mags. A well tuned 1911 with the right mags and ammo is a blast to shoot fast. But any of those 3 that are not 'right' can be so frustrating, you'll want to give up on WB. Totes

Arizona SASS Wild Bunch State Championship January 24, 2025 @ Elzy Pearson Shooting Range in Casa Grande, AZ Wild Bunch State Championship will be held in conjunction with Gathering of the Posse's Cowboy match. Six stage match on Friday with awards asap after the match. Squibber and Cholula Mike are the Match directors. Applications will be available soon . dustybunch.com

Best advice I was given is to have mags that work every time without fail. Second was to use a loaded round gage and check every round you will use in a match. Any round that doesn't drop fully into the gage goes into the practice bin. Also check that the primers are fully seated.

I would just like to get a Chronicle

Depending on application, I have springs from Wolff, ISMI, Springco, Wilson Combat, Colt, EGW, Thunder Mountain and others.

This is the scammer. He is well known over in the cowboy wire. Thought I’d share is info here. Bank name : PNC BANK Bank account owners name : Todd Allen German Bank Routing number :041000124 Bank account number : 4166665692

This. I would go further and suggest forcing inexperienced shooters to shoot duellist style or WEAK HAND could border on the unsafe. Certainly "unfun" for those not comfortable with it. Which sort of defeats the purpose of the game surely? No offence to the other poster, but I don't see the relevance of police type training to a recreational activity. LOL..I'm a HALO qualified military jumper but I don't expect civvie Skydivers to jump with equipment packs!😉

230 LRN over 4.0 gr WST

When Model 12 hunting, do NOT get a 3” Heavy Duck gun. I have not been able to make them run with 2 3/4” shells. As previously mentioned, the Lightweight versions don’t hold 6 shells. All Model 12s are takedowns and all will slam fire. I see some dealers advertise like those are super rare features.

Well…. Since you asked. 99% of cowboy action dress up players can’t really shoot, they don’t like a higher round count, targets out past 3 feet or targets smaller than a barn door. Or the fact that that Wild Bunch stages aren’t choreographed like a kindergarten play.

Hey, folks; I just wanted to share the results of my trip up to the Rough Riders Wild Bunch match, at the Chorro Valley shooting facility. Ambs Aces put on a terrific match; some targets were new WBup close, with numerous targets at SASS rifle distance, so you had to mind your sights. Long and short, I had a good time, with a great bunch of folks, and recommend it to anyone near the Central California coast. As a plus, they start at 11:00 a.m. (YES!!!!) and the weather, as it usually is, was perfect. I will be going back. Cheers! FJT

Dutch, my friend Headshot Hannah tried a number of times to register, I hope she was one of the ones you let thru. And yes she checked her spam numerous times AND sent a number of emails to SASS but never received a confirmation letter or a reply back. She called too. Finally she just gave up in frustration. She was able to get on the CAS forum but not this one so I would have to agree with others that there is something wrong and/or different between the CAS and WB forums. Thank you. Roper

Why? Because it doesn’t fit your narrative? For 10-12 years, the national and world championships sell out. You change the rules and it doesn’t sell out, by a large margin. To me, that’s about as good a barometer as possible. Cause and effect.

A 150 PF in .38's isn't a problem using 158 gr. bullets I did some testing recently and had the following results with FACTORY .38 special 158 gr. COWBOY AMMO. Grizzly just made it with a 151 PF, HSM made a 158 PF, Winchester made 168 PF All shot at indoor range with my 20" rifle The Winchester is the ammo that is provided to the club for the annual youth day. Kids from 8-18 shoot this out of revolvers and rifles, without issue. What's the problem with a 150 power factor for both pistol and rifle. Shoot .38's if you must but make 150 PF. Just don't make excuses!!! Marshal Stone WB TG Alaska 49ers

Can be loaded with lots of powders. I get great accuracy with 5744, but it's very expensive. For 100 yard shooting, 2400 or 4227 is a good choice. Red Dot can even be put into use. For 200 yard accuracy, better to go to a powder like 4198 or 3031 or Reloder 7 - of course, those are rapidly increasing in price, too. Really depends upon what you want the muzzle velocity to be. And accuracy of each cast bullet load in a rifle tends to be specific to that rifle. Here's a great summary of military rifle cast bullet loading: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article My favorite for 30-06 with a 170 to 200 grain slug at about 1800 FPS tends to be........Reloder 7. 4227 if shooting slower loads (1400 FPS) friendly to normal steel "cowboy" targets. A copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (all cast bullet loads) or the Lyman Reloading Handbook 51st edition (this edition now has several cast bullet loads for each bullet and cartridge combination) is going to be your best reference material. good luck, GJ

I know a guy.

Here's my test results. It was 60-65 degrees out yesterday while I was shooting these. The 230gr are my new powder coated Cheycast bullets. The 200gr shown below are the copper plated Xtreme that I already had on hand and have been shooting at monthly matches. I shot the first string of 5; then chrono'd all the 230gr; and then shot another string of the 200gr just to see if barrel heat had any impact. It doesn't look like it did. Looks like I'll be pretty safe with 3.8gr of TG behind these 230gr bullets. They are round nose and I had them seated at an OAL of around 1.222"; tried seating them like GJ said to. All 25 of them fed just fine in the gun. 230gr 3.8gr TG 4.0gr TG 4.2gr TG 4.4gr TG 4.6gr TG 1 745 794 776 842 836 2 704 746 791 817 868 3 702 760 771 840 854 4 740 753 803 809 834 5 694 740 837 846 AVG 717 758.6 785.3 829.0 847.6 STD 23.64 21.16 14.57 14.98 13.96 Spread 51 54 32 33 34 PF 164.9 174.5 180.6 190.7 194.9 200gr 4.8gr TG 4.8gr TG 1 817 832 2 823 795 3 825 796 4 835 815 5 834 795 AVG 826.8 806.6 STD 7.63 16.56 Spread 18 37 PF 165.36 161.32

If the match knows what they are doing, it's out of the shooter's gun. Although testing power factor has been somewhat ignored in last couple of years. And the technique to check power factor has loose rules which individual directors can adapt to their conditions. With all that uncertainty, if you are concerned about never being DQ'd, then you want to stay up around 165 PF with the 1911 ammo. As Boggus wrote above. And the more likely it is you would be "on the podium" at the end, the more likely your ammo gets tested. At least that was the past experience. good luck, GJ PS - I have experienced a few matches that test ammo with a common "range" gun, then if there is a failed result with that, they look up the shooter to obtain the gun that will be/has been used in the match. Matches that do that will usually collect an extra 5 rounds beyond what the test with the range gun requires, so as to prevent a "questionable" shooter from substituting stronger ammo. And the very best match officials will arrive unannounced during the match, go to the shooter who will be tested, and ask for a sample of ammo right then. Or, a little disruptive, I've heard of ammo being collected from the shooter AT THE LOADING TABLE (from magazines on the shooter's belt even). That seems a little intrusive for my tastes.