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The 2026 Illinois State WB Championship will be held as part of the 2026 Illinois State SASS Championship match to be held in Milan, IL from July 15 - 19, 2026. Match information and applications can be found here WB is 8 stages, 5 on Wednesday and 3 on Thursday with lunch and awards to follow. Hope to see you there! Cowboy Rick

What was really bad was when SASS sold ammo that didn’t meet power factor when it was tested..

It's used when there is an appearance of PF failure. At the old WR, it was used every day, every year. Random shooter, one or two per posse, had to submit ammo in ziplocks to be tested. Happened the same way at the older 4 Corners Regionals. Happened, for cause, at a 4 corners regional as well. Shooter had to change ammo. PF was so low it wasn't cycling his 1911.

OK, using that logic, why use any time at all to make sure it is CLEAR, at the end of the stage?

What was the basis for that call?

I may not have the extensive shooting experience or resume of others on this thread, but, having timed it on numerous occasions, there is slightly more than a 1/2 second advantage for me on a 10 shot string, using my .38/357 rifle and loads. Over 10 stages that is quite significant. YMMV. Cheers, FJT

This is a forum, not an airport. There's no need to announce your departure.

Plenty of us are thrilled about allowing .38 rifles. Count me as one of them. I never shot Wild Bunch and had no intention of buying a bigger rifle just to do it. Now it's become one of my favorite shooting sports. The rule of .40 or larger never made any sense and the power factor means nothing. If anyone took their ball and went home because .38s get to play, there will be plenty to replace them.

Now,now, boys!!!

No No NO. If they want to shoot under 150, for rifle, shoot wild bunch aka mild bunch aka wild bunch lite. But the range/club should understand 150pf for pistol stays. period.dot. It's not the Rifle PF that kept shooters away from WB, it's the cost of the equipment. Just about everyone has, or had, access to a single stack 1911. It was the shotgun and large caliber rifle that scared, potential, shooters away. Not the rifle PF. Now that there is WB for those who don't have, or want to get, the shotgun and rifle, and Classic for those who do. Again, Rifle PF has nothing to do with it.

Power factor for pistol is, and always was, 150. Power factor for Wild Bunch Rifle is 60 Power factor for Classic Wild Bunch Rifle is 150 The PF for Pistols was never changed. If a club decides to no longer offer WB because of the 150 PF for Classic Rifle, they need to acknowledge the PF for ALL Pistols, forever, has been 150. Nothing new here. Figure some other reason to not allow WB.

Mine get edited when I spot a typo after posting it, or I want to comment on another point, like I did about the question of how the OP's ammo looked. None were edited after another poster added their reply. GJ

Bring all rifle power factor back to 150

Who does a function check at matches? https://www.m1911.org/technic25.htm The disconnector test is REALLY critical.

Tall John, You will notice that some posts are all edited because they are originally wrong and googled based, not experience and success based.

Don’t drop the loaded round into the chamber and drop the slide. You will certainly at some point break the extractor. It’s designed for the cartridge rim to ride up the breach face under the extractor hook.

One bay. 2 volunteers. In between 2 stages somewhere in the match.

There was a bay where the equipment was set up for anyone to test their loads. That was the day before WB started. Some folks took advantage of the opportunity, some didn't. It's impractical to check 150+ shooters ammo, at five rounds each, and still complete the match. There is no more MDQ for scoring purposes so, once challenged and found lacking, it's a SDQ for any stage, after that, the ammo is used, and a MDQ for the second stage used.

I wonder why we care if the safeties work if we're not allowed to move with loaded guns or have loaded guns in our holsters. Would you really want to win a Wild Bunch match because your fellow competitor's grip safety didn't work when tested?

Doing it like that seems tremendously unfair and to send the wrong message. If it can't be done with calibrated equipment and for everyone, it shouldn't be done at all.

I would recommend your function check after any tuning/repair or every couple of years of use. On a safe outdoor range, load a mag with 1 round, a couple with 2 rounds, and several full mags. When time to test "proper disconnector" function, shoot them in that order. Be ready to control gun with two hands after the first mag. If you have any doubles (or worse), fix it better. There often is no place at a match to do this kind of test. Nor time to conduct it, nor time to fix it. Bring a working gun and working ammo to a Wild Bunch match! good luck, GJ

I have seen safety checks and ammo pulled and some tested. I don't have a problem with that being done...and it probably should be done...along with weighing pistols. I think that really at checkin...pistols should be weighed and the grip safety checked. During the match...random samples of ammo pulled and at least some of it checked.

The disconnector is there for more than that. It prevents it from firing out of battery and from going full auto.

No one ever has done official "function checks" in that detail at a WB match. While it may be critical to buying a gun, it's not IMO critical to shooting a match safely. We have a whole bay full of safety officers watching the shooter, and able to stop the action if they see a serious safety problem. The test of a working grip safety and thumb safety has been part of the rules compliance testing of 1911s (along with weight, parts and modifications falling within rules, etc). I was a TO at a major WB match several years ago and issued two Stage DQs on the same stage to a very careless shooter (second one after a Cease Fire had been put in place). Neither was a failure of 1911 function. I think the real safety concern at matches needs to remain "Is the shooter following good safe gun handling". Just like we do now. good luck, GJ

It's in the WBAS SHB, pg 31

From several thousands of rounds of testing, a 230 grain at 725 fps is faster shot to shot than a 200 grain at 800+. The gun stays down and is less snappy.

AW & GJ sorry for the misunderstanding. I posted the above for information only. Since I shoot primarily small primer brass, I have been asked if there is a difference in velocity. While I felt that small primer brass lowered the velocity, I had never compared them side by side. My only fallacy in the test is that the primers are not all from the same manufacturer; as, I am now wondering if all Winchester primers are "hotter." So let me be clear. I don't feel the need nor compunction to justify a superior brass to you or anyone else. :) JFN

I wouldn't be using either one. Clay ranges are limited to 7 1/2 so I don't keep any shot bigger than that and I usually just use #8.

That is my point, should safety issues be considered of higher importance than "if you think it is a miss then it is a hit"

I've been running 4.3 gr. of VV N320 with a 230 gr. Desperado Cowboy bullet. Won 2 Senior Traditional World Championships with it. One with an SR 1911 and one with a Colt. Must be doing something right. Marshal Stone

Broke the 170, SDQ Hard to see at the start, what about the finger on the trigger while racking the slide?

Apples and oranges. Max fps is 1000 and 1400 for SASS. A 230 at 1000fps 28 times has more effect on the surface than a 200 at 1400 8 times. Basic metalurgy.

It's not a PF issue. The main reason SASS wanted an Open category, years ago, was to draw other, cowboy, shooters into WB. WB was not bringing in the revenue spent on awards etc. CAS shooters, who have now started shooting WB, didn't want to have to get a new rifle and shotgun. The cost of the guns for the amount of matches offered, didn't pencil out. So SASS had to change things up and, in so doing, eliminated the PF for all rifles to allow .38's to play. Add in the '87 and SxS shotgun, more shooters could afford to play WB. Enough WB shooters wanted the "big bore" rifles and pump shotgun, SASS decided to bring that back as "Classic". Kinda funny, if the "powers that were" had just allowed an "open" category, none of this would have ever happened. Rifle PF is only in Classic. As far as clubs using rifle PF as a reason to not shoot WB, I say BS. 150pf for pistol is more damaging to a target, because of 28+ rounds vs 7-10, it's just a reason they want to complain.

Yours were edited because you were wrong, called out on it and then you edited them. You do remember I have screen shots of your original posts….

I cleaned & lubed, and polished the feed ramp of my Taurus PT1911 and loaded up another 24 rounds with an added 1/4 turn of crimp and I had zero problems! 3.7 grns of TiteGroup under my Home cast/PC’d MP mould 227gr RNFP NLG .452 sized bullets with WRE LP primers. 740fps, 168PF, STD Dev 11.4 MAXXTECH 230grn FMJ 769fps, 176PF, std dev 25.0 I’ll take the Ruger SR1911 out next time now that the FEDEX guy showed up…. (Note I ordered 2! 🤪)

And I actually prefer Small Primers in my .45 acp...don't have to re-set my Dillon 550 after a 9mm or .38 spl. run Bugler

Looked up the applicable rule in the handbook. Page 13 under 1911 Pistol Modern Category Modifications good luck, GJ

All it takes is one SASS Sanctioned Match to start it and watch it snowball.

That is not a rib, it's a sight base. That older style of adjustable sight needs a long slot to mount the front part of the sight. Besides, factory (OEM) full ribs have been allowed if they are part of the manufacturing process, not an add-on. Like on some Gold Cups. good luck, GJ

A new 1911 has traditionally needed about 200 factory power FMJ rounds through it to break it in. Loosen up the action, wear in the extractor, etc. The Taurus? Would not HURT to run some through it, too. Fire 50 or so, clean the gun. Repeat. Look for any failures of any sort. If a 1911 is hiccuping on factory FMJ, it for sure has problems that can get in the way of running lighter power lead bullet ammo. Report back how the break ins go. There COULD be a function problem with both guns, but very unlikely. Unlikely either will malfunction with FMJ, but the object is to loosen the gun up so testing with lighter lead bullet ammo tells no lies. So, loosen the guns up before you seriously start looking for why the reloaded ammo does not run the guns well. The ammo you have loaded at this point looks reasonable. Nose is a little flat-ish compared to FMJ ammo. That should not cause a failure to feed the last 1/8" into chamber though. Powder coating CAN cause some chambering problems. Have the bullets been run through a sizer die AFTER being powder coated? I have seen some coatings so thick or so non-slick that they cause a failure to feed, but mostly by sticking the nose to the feed ramp and depositing powder coat color there. good luck, GJ

Great idea. Get a bay, that's not being used, turn it into check bay. Shooters come off the previous bay, check in at test bay, weigh, check safeties, do PF test, move on. I like it. Now, to get the Powers That Be, involved. Thanks for the ideas.

All USPSA matches are tested and there are several hundred shooters. For example, testing is on stage 4. As shooters finish stage 3, they go test. It’s recorded. They go to stage 5. Match officials check PF for major and minor levels and if a shooter doesn’t meet, they face consequences. Shooter gets to the test area, official asks for a magazine off the body and tests. May be first mag maybe third mag. I prefer knockdowns that require a certain level of PF. Yes, it’s hard to keep them calibrated. Yes, it’s a lot of work for a match staff.

Every EOT WB held at Founders Ranch had random rifle and pistol ammo from "random" shooters pulled and tested for meeting the +150 PF level. I know from personal experience as I attended all of those matches. And usually there were weight checks and functioning safeties tested. Some of those I conducted or supervised. Even if no thumb safety application is practiced at any WB match I've been in. good luck, GJ

WBAS Shb Pg 13 says "Thumb and grip safeties must function correctly" However, there is no procedure or requirement to check the safety for function. That would fall under Match Directors Discretion. I remember, years ago, at Winter Range, every shooter had to weigh their pistol, with and without mag, and show the safeties to be functional, on one stage. Haven't seen either of those in a long time.

Murphy says, "when you think they won't test PF, they will" good luck, GJ

Get a dr.s note. Exceptions are made.

The short throat in a 1911 barrel catches a lot of new loaders of .45 AUTO by surprise, as they load a few hundred, go to the range, and find every one of the loads fails to go the last 1/8" into battery. Some keys to loading so they will feed well in your gun: 1 - the point on the nose where the upper end of the cylindrical section of the bullet (the shank) STARTS to narrow down (round over) to the nose ogive is the place where the case mouth should be placed during seating. If you crimp down on the shank, the nose will jam into the short throat of the barrel and round will not go fully into chamber. If you crimp out on the ogive of the bullet, you will have collapsed bullets during hard feeding. Remember that there is NO standard nose length on cast .45 AUTO bullets, because there have been hundreds of molds made to cast these slugs over the years. Regardless of what a manual may state. So, don't load to the published OAL, load to put the case mouth at the start of the ogive turn-in. 2 - apply a taper crimp that just returns the case mouth to 0.472", measured with a caliper. You are only straightening out the case from where you expanded the mouth, and just barely catching the surface of the bullet with the inside edge of the case mouth. Looking down from on top of loaded rounds, you should still see a bright ring of brass all the way around the bullet. The case mouth is the headspace location, so if you "bury" the brass case wall all the way into the bullet during crimping, the headspace mechanism is removed and rounds can chamber too deep to fire. 3 - get a loaded round checking gauge, and check EACH cartridge to make sure it chambers perfectly. Several companies make them, including Dillon and Wilson (the trimmer guys, not the gun guys, unless Bill Wilson just happens to be making them now, too). Yes, you can take the barrel out of your 1911 and drop rounds into the chamber, but it will "get old" breaking down your pistol every time you load a batch of ammo. 4 - good on you for bulge busting your "range" cases. But if a round fails the chamber check from step 3, the first thing to try is to bulge-bust that LOADED round. I've busted thousands of loaded rounds and never had a discharge. Second thing to do if you fail chamber-check is to look at the mouth of the case and find any lead finger-nails that "squirted out" during crimping. Depending upon the quality of bullet and your ability to squarely seat a bullet, you may or may not find a sliver of lead needing to be trimmed off the round. Those 2 corrections will almost always get the round to pass chamber-checking. 5 - chrono check and calculate Power Factor yourself. Not every 1911 will shoot a load from the manual at the velocity that the book shows! Sounds like you are well on the way to making great ammo. good luck, GJ

Folks, I just finished a new batch of firing pins. I have plenty available. Along with new hammer springs. If you have ordered any from me recently, they are already on the way or will be Monday. Thanks!

Ok Monday morning, time to kick this horse. Boy y’all are making this way harder then it needs to be, or I’m dumber then my wife say’s I am. I’m not wanting/trying to stir anything up. But I have problems/issue’s with some interpretation’s/comments and just want to be able to make the correct call, and have proof in what is written in the book. As we all know a SxS shotgun does have an action, and therefore can be cycled.. It’s called a Break action or Break-open action. Heck all firearms have an action and must be cycled, if you ever want to shoot another round. The way I’m reading this post, it started out about the penalty for an empty left in the SxS gun. Then it appears to have moved to whether you can cycle the action on a SxS. We can all agree that the SHB state’s, “There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun. It will be cocked.” From reading the above statement, there is no penalty for an empty hull left in a shotgun. If it is open or been cycled. It’s an either OR scenario, not an And scenario. So did shooter open the SxS? If yes, no call. Was the gun cycled? If the SxS is open, it had to have been cycled, if the hammers were cocked. So another yes. No penalty for empty hull in a SxS. In the definition for “Action Cycled” where does it state “it only applies to lever and pump action long guns”? Just because that phrase is in parentheses does not make it absolute. The definition of the phrase Action Cycled is “opening the action far enough to cock the hammer” is a lot more absolute. So, the way I read it, a SxS can have it’s action cycled. So onto the last issue. Since some folks have stated that the SxS cannot have the action cycled. Either due to interpretation of the glossary or that SxS do not have an action. Anytime an individual uses a SxS in WB, will they be awarded a MSV each stage? As they cannot cycle the action of a long gun, either do to not having an action or by use of the glossary? It’s the first bullet in the MSV list in the SHB. Also FYI on the comment “addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go”. The term’s Action Closed/Open were added in the June 2014 v 7.0 SHB. There was no Action Cycled at this time. In January 2019 v12.2 SHB is when the Action Cycled, with the current verbiage was added. But since the initial addition in 2014 these terms have always had the “(lever and pump action long guns)” after the term. Unless something officially is published for this scenario, if I’m TO’ing and a empty hull is left in an open SxS (as long as you cycle the action). You will get a no call from me. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. And there sure is a lot of doubt/misconceptions in this post. Y’all have a great day. Got my flame suit on