Why aren't Wild Bunchers fully matriculated into SASS?

[PapaGrande]

Why doesn't SASS allow Wild Bunchers to compete in "standard" SASS matches as just another category or two?  Too often it seems like the Wild Bunch is treated as a "side match."

 

Is there a technical reason?  Would a .45ACP round damage metal targets at the short distances used in SASS?  If it is, could it be handled by setting a maximum power factor?

 

Or is SASS concerned (as they seem to be when it comes to the idea adult rimfire) that too many people would matriculate from "standard" SASS to WB?  Thanks.

[Garrison Joe]

Because WB is not just SASS with a different handgun.

 

Because WB ticks off some cowboy shooters when they see it shot, hear about it being shot, or have it shot on their own posse.

 

Because WB uses different rules and that might make some shooters' brains explode.

 

Because there would be too much brass to have to shag.

 

Because folks would forget to check the model 12.

 

Because a WB shooter might whoop up on them and take overall.

 

Because the targets would be too close and too large for a WB shooter.

 

Because there would not be enough targets to be shot.

 

Because no one would pick up and return empty magazines.

 

Because someone might pick up a fired gun other than the shooter.

 

 

Pick any number of your choices from the reasons above and you might have a start.  ;D

 

Besides, one meaning of matriculation is enrollment and it would not be much like going back to school to shoot WB in a Cowboy match.

 

:) ;) :D ;D :o

 

 

Really, though, WB is significantly different and would be real limited at a Cowboy shoot.  I like the additional venue to shoot at, with WB being separate, being tougher stages, requiring more accuracy and more ability to handle recoil.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Boggus Deal]

And one big one that makes a huge difference is that most ROs in a cowboy match aren't familiar with the rules of clearing the 1911.

[Boggus Deal]

Also, a lot of cowboy stages aren't written with a safe place to stage a 1911 when the shooter is finished with it or it becomes unusable in a stage.

[Happy Jack]

In the early days of Wild Bunch shooting some clubs tried having a "Wild Bunch posse" running in conjunction with the CAS match. It was NOT successful. The WBAS shooters didn't like it and the CAS shooters didn't like it. The two sports are too different. Many reasons for the failure to run the two sports simultaneously have already been listed.

[VICIOUS]

HI Gang. How about CAS on saturday and move the fireing line back 10 yards and shooot WB on sunday.  ;D

[Roy Cassidy]

At Circle K Regulators we set up for CAS on Saturday morning, tweak 5 of the 6 stages and shoot Wild Bunch rearrange the stages back and shoot 6 stages of CAS on Sunday.

[PapaGrande]

Because WB is not just SASS with a different handgun.

 

Because WB ticks off some cowboy shooters when they see it shot, hear about it being shot, or have it shot on their own posse.

 

Because WB uses different rules and that might make some shooters' brains explode.

 

Because there would be too much brass to have to shag.

 

Because folks would forget to check the model 12.

 

Because a WB shooter might whoop up on them and take overall.

 

Because the targets would be too close and too large for a WB shooter.

 

Because there would not be enough targets to be shot.

 

Because no one would pick up and return empty magazines.

 

Because someone might pick up a fired gun other than the shooter.

 

 

Pick any number of your choices from the reasons above and you might have a start.  ;D

 

Besides, one meaning of matriculation is enrollment and it would not be much like going back to school to shoot WB in a Cowboy match.

 

:) ;) :D ;D :o

 

 

Really, though, WB is significantly different and would be real limited at a Cowboy shoot.  I like the additional venue to shoot at, with WB being separate, being tougher stages, requiring more accuracy and more ability to handle recoil.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Thanks for the comments.  They made me laugh -- and some made me shake my head knowingly.  I don't think that there shouldn't be a separate WB group and all, but it would be nice if a solo WBer could shoot a SASS match as a WBer, simply because around here, SASS matches are common and WB matches are few and far between.

 

I realize the targeting wouldn't be all that challenging but it would still be fun.

[PapaGrande]

And one big one that makes a huge difference is that most ROs in a cowboy match aren't familiar with the rules of clearing the 1911.

 

I would hope that any individual who is capable of ROing a SASS match should very easily be able to learn how to clear a M1911.  In all actuality I would hope they would already have enough general gun knowledge...

[PapaGrande]

Also, a lot of cowboy stages aren't written with a safe place to stage a 1911 when the shooter is finished with it or it becomes unusable in a stage.

 

Maybe in their holsters or where SASSers stage their revolvers?

[PapaGrande]

In the early days of Wild Bunch shooting some clubs tried having a "Wild Bunch posse" running in conjunction with the CAS match. It was NOT successful. The WBAS shooters didn't like it and the CAS shooters didn't like it. The two sports are too different. Many reasons for the failure to run the two sports simultaneously have already been listed.

 

Why didn't they like it?  Too slow?  Not challenging enough?

[VICIOUS]

HI Gang; IF a club did wish to have a WB group but only small numbers maybe the WB could or should form there own posse, so as not to detract or offend the cowboys and mainly for safety reasons.

As to the vemon well it aint what it used to be for type of stages or kindness of people. I now lock my car at matchs. 25 years back I never thought about it.

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

Pg, the bottom line is if your shooting a cowboy match with a 1911 then you are not shooting a wild bunch match but a cowboy match with a 1911. Could be great fun and you would be playing with the 45 and getting trigger time which are all great things. I'm embarrassed at some of the responses posted on the wire , civility is dead to some. Of course it's a lot easier to be rude when nothing is said face to face or on a phone anymore. It's best to find like minded individuals and at the very least have your own WB posse if you were going to have WB at a cowboy match. Funny thing is our monthly WB match is shot on the same day as our cowboy match both matches are stand alone we all get done about the same time and have lunch then awards and then anyone interested whether a cowboy or a WB shooter goes back down to the range and participates in a BAMM competition. We all have fun and there is not a us vs them attitude.  Dusty Boddams

[August West]

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

 

-Herbert Spencer

[Boggus Deal]

 

 

Maybe in their holsters or where SASSers stage their revolvers?

 

 

 

PapaGrande, at the end of shooting a pistol string with the 1911 in Wild Bunch, it is not reholstered until it is cleared by the RO at the end of the stage. A lot of cowboy stages don't have a place to restage the pistol. In Cowboy, all revolvers go back to leather, unless otherwise specifically specified in the stage description.

I don't want you to feel beat up over here like you do on the SASS wire as we want to be friendly and grow the sport of WBAS so please take our answers here not as being hateful but sometimes they may sound like that due to not being able to get the tone of the statement by reading it.

Also, to answer your other post about SASS ROs should be able to learn how to handle WBAS guns, sure, they should be able to. However, in the middle of a match is not the time to have to learn that. The 1911 and the Model 12 range operations are so different than an open an empty double barrelled shotgun or a reholstered single action revolver, that it would be difficult and quite possibly dangerous to try and figure it out in the middle of a stage.

By the way, where are you located? Knowing that info, maybe we could help point you in the direction of some close by people and matches that would be helpful to you.

Best,

BD

[PapaGrande]

After creating this thread and taking part in its discussion, doing the same over at the SASS Wire (http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=227400), doing some additional reading, talking to a few more people in person and spending some time digesting all the information I have reached this conclusion:

 

There are no real safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match.  The safety/technical items that were offered as reasons for not allowing WBers to shoot SASS matches are such non-issues or so easily overcome that I personally view them as excuses.  Empirical proof and logic simply doesn't allow for another conclusion.  As others have pointed out it's all about "politics" and bigotry.

 

For the record I also learned that quite a few SASS clubs DO INDEED allow WBers to take part in their matches.  It was very nice to make that discovery!

 

The resistance to allowing WBers to take part in SASS matches by some SASS groups stems from a manifold of reasons.  I think the most important reason is the culture of many SASS groups.  For many, assuming their western persona for a day or weekend, engaging in fellowship with their friends and simply getting away and taking part in the shoot are the primary reasons they attend SASS events.  These reasons are far more important to them than competition, marksmanship, historical accuracy, etc., etc. which may (or may not) be of greater interest to a given WBer.  There's nothing necessarily wrong with that  -- it's largely those qualities that make SASS a success.  It's just the way it is.

 

I think difficult, even boorish behavior by some SASSers (far less common in real life than on the SASS Wire) is spawned by their desire to "keep things just as they are" because they personally conclude (even if they may not realize it) that doing so is the best way to maintain the enjoyment they currently derive from taking part in SASS events.  I think SASS tolerates and even encourages such behavior to a degree because it's quite literally "good for business" -- at least for now. 

 

Clearly some individual SASS groups have wider/clearer views of this and other issues and when combined with some empirical proof they realize that there are no safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match so they allow it.  Good for them!  I wish I lived near such a SASS group!

 

Thanks to everyone participating in the two threads.  It was quite educational for me.

 

 

[John Boy]

PG - Cowboy Action and Wild Bunch are 2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations.  Accept each as a stand alone - shoot one or the other or both and forget about any integration.  Okie Dokie?  :)

 

[PapaGrande]

PG - Cowboy Action and Wild Bunch are 2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations.  Accept each as a stand alone - shoot one or the other or both and forget about any integration.  Okie Dokie? 

 

Nope.  There are no real safety/technical/historical issues that preclude WBers from taking part in a SASS match.  There are very real political issues with some SASS groups I have learned.

 

Your comment about "2 different shooting sports with 2 different Handbook regulations" is an excuse, not a reason.

[Branchwater Jack - 88854]

We shoot a mid month match where we shoot Wild Bunch.

 

Cowboys can shoot that day, too.

 

They all shoot in the same bays.

 

However, they shoot different scenarios and are all scored separately.

 

Usually they run on separate posses too

 

This helps bring in more money for the club as a WB only match wouldn't bring it in

[Garrison Joe]

PG -

 

There really is a major technical and safety reason that folks in the cowboy game don't encourage Wild Bunch style shooting at their matches - it's that shooting a 1911 and a fully-stoked hammerless pump shotgun takes extra rules that the cowboy handbooks don't cover, and extra training for shooters, TOs and other safety officers.  The cowboy folks know that getting the extra rules in place past the existing Territorial Governors group and the Wild Bunch leadership would be a tough job, and getting enough of the cowboy safety officer community trained would be even more work.  Some have safety concerns that they would not understand coaching shooters through solutions to jammed guns.  Some have a strong aversion to any semi-auto pistol. 

 

Requiring that they open up cowboy matches to WB shooting is the ultimate in selfishness.  Standing up a separate but equal WB structure is a hard exercise, but it has been pretty well done, and I heartily salute all our WB folks who have worked for 5 years to make happen what we have now.  They have been: Not tossing out excuses, not dodging issues, not sticking their heads in the sand.  But making proactive, positive progress toward one more great shooting venue. 

 

Sorry that does not satisfy you.  Sorry that you have felt the need to stir the pot in both forums.  Sorry you could not hear what several of us have said about this, and that you want to slam anyone who disagrees with you.

 

But I am sorry the most that you feel the need or "privilege" to post rudely in reply to one of our dearest ladies in the game, who works very hard moderating both forums, and has a tremendous history here of helping hundreds of folks. 

 

:(

 

Allie Mo - thanks go to you for your great reservoir of patience!

 

Good bye.  GJ

[Allie Mo]

...

:(

 

Allie Mo - thanks go to you for your great reservoir of patience!

 

Good bye.  GJ

 

Well the reservoir is empty.  :o

[Wait A. Minute]

Thank You Dusty...

[Happy Jack]

I will let this go for awhile  IF  it gets back on topic.  Otherwise I think it has run its course.

 

We will NOT tolerate the type of uncivil discourse that goes on on the SASS wire.

 

All involved think about what you are about to say before furthering this thread. I have no problem with the area of discussion about WBAS and CAS matches being together or not, but that is the topic under discussion. NOT who might be posting.

[Branchwater Jack - 88854]

I also have to believe that the geographical differences have allowed WB to grow differently in different areas.

 

While I have not traveled way far out west, you can see video and hear folks talk about how different stages and steel placement is out there.

 

Out over here where I am, we do set up some additional SG targets, plate racks, and will shoot the pistol at the rifle targets, but for the most part, we have not pushed back the steel for WB as much as I have seen done in other parts of the country, nor has target size shrunk down.

 

The cowboy game has grown into a speed first type of shoot with bigger and closer targets now being the majority.  And it continues to work as a good, winning formula.  Just look at the resurgence of EOT the past couple of years!

 

Folks shooting the cowboy game understandably would not want this winning formula for target placement and stage design changed to the prevailing WB formula.  And I can understand why.

 

 

 

The other issue that I see is that many cowboy shooters have 'retired' from the run and gun of IPSC, IDPA, and the like to the greener pastures of CAS.

 

These shooters wanted to get away from the 'arms race' that many of these disciplines have moved towards.  And while a good '73 rifle with action job costs less than $2k, it is still less than a tricked out 1911.

 

They like what they moved to and would hate to let anything in that would effectively put them back into the same situation they previously left.

 

 

 

And that gets back to not wanting to shoot the same match with autos when everyone else is shooting wheel guns.

 

A well run 1911 with a stoked shotgun shooting the same stage as a cowboy is probably going to win 9 out of 10 times.  Which is why, when we do allow cowboys to shoot at the same match time as our WB match, they are actually shooting different scenarios and are all scored completely separate in two different matches.  They is no comparison between the two.

 

Because they are two different games, with different rules, and different match and stage design ideologies.

 

 

I enjoy shooting both WB and cowboy. They both have their formula that the directors are trying to use to promote each sport. We'll see how each one develops in the future, but I do not see either formula changing enough that they would end up meeting in the middle.

[Nellie Blue]

I'd like to remind everyone we are on the Wild Bunch Wire where we calmly discuss issues. I've locked this post down. How about everyone take a step back....take a few deep breaths...and let this dead horse die a peaceful death.  Thank you.

 

Note: All off-topic comments and responses to those off-topic comments have been removed from the above thread.