August West

Posting a photograph here would be very helpful.

What's your attendance? What skin is it off their nose?

Congratulations!!! I've heard he's a good shooter.

First firearm in the stage is rifle. Shooter brings his .45 Colt rifle to the line, inadvertently loaded with .38 Special rounds. Cycles the rifle to start the stage, and a cartridge is chambered, slides down the barrel, and lands on the ground downrange of the shooting position. The question is: did a round go downrange and is the shooter, thus, committed to the stage? (yes, this happened)

Thanks to Nellie and Dusty. Nellie ran the telegraph office very well -- she saved my bacon more than once! Cheers to both troopers for a job well-done.

The M12 likes to be wet in my experience. There are four (4) points I pay attention to. First, I put grease in the 'pocket' on the bolt that receives the action bar. I get that 'cirque' cut covered on all surfaces. Second, I oil the action bar -- itself -- as it passes through the hole into the action, and also the channel that it runs in inside the receiver. This is perhaps the most important thing to lubricate as it relates to the 'feel' of the gun during a match. Third, the cut behind the shell stop gets a good puddle of oil. That seems to eliminate double feeding issues for me. And, finally, the ejector gets oiled by putting lube in the channel on the bolt that it 'runs' in. Personally, I use TW-25b grease on the bolt where the action bar engages it. And, I use Mobil 1, 0-20W, motor oil on the action bar/receiver, shell stop/receiver, and ejector/bolt. In my experience the M12 seems to benefit from being cleaned and lubricated regularly.

Is she pulling the slide back, or PUSHING the slide back. IOW, is pointing her thumb at herself and putting her entire hand on the slide, or trying to do it with just the thumb and forefinger.

Howdy Blaze: Since "SWC shoulder" is ambiguous, it's hard to know what they're talking about without seeing a picture. (it might mean a true semi-wadcutter design with pronounced shoulder, or it 'could' mean the small shelf that exists on most .45 acp bullets where the shank meets the ogive). FYI, Here is a bullet and company I am extremely happy with. If you order 1000, they pay the freight. If that's more than you want to buy, I'd be happy to split 1000 with you -- as long as they're 230 grain. https://www.badmanbullets.com/OnlineStore/products.php?cat=45+230+Grain+RN You'll note this bullet has the "shelf" I refer to above. August

Why not have them discuss it here?

To the end of understanding this situation, let me offer two other thoughts. 1. Spotters do not call Procedural Penalties, they report what they saw to the R/O, who -- in turn -- may or may not assign a Procedural Penalty to the shooter. The benefit of any doubt goes to the shooter. 2. Expending five (5) shotgun rounds would eliminate all doubt about the shooter having reengaged a target.

This is a good one! If I limit myself to applying the rules, as Flash has posted them, and only apply those rules to the condition of the range at the end of the string, I get one miss for a standing target. So when the dust settles: I really don't know where the shooter aimed his third or his forth shots -- wasn't there, probably wouldn't be sure even if I was. I do know that three of the targets fell during the proper course of firing four (4) shotgun rounds. I know one of the targets remains standing after the proper course of fire is completed by the shooter. (believe me, I got snookered into two other "calls" before arriving at this one!).

The extractors "look" normal. The reason I'm stuck on the lifter is that -- as I said -- we've found 3" lifters in M12s that were made for 2 3/4" shells. I suspect that when the crush of the Remington 870 was fully upon Winchester that they did a lot of stuff to try to cut costs (corners) on the otherwise expensive manufacture of the M12. The TOP (the part that faces the sky when the gun is at battery) is configured different on the 3" gun. This difference in shape results in poor control of the shells during feeding, and the exact kind of symptoms you are reporting. That's why I'm so stuck on that possibility. This is a road we've been down and it was baffling until we realized what Winchester had done. So, I'm still interested in seeing a photograph of the top of the lifter, taken looking down on it while it is removed from the receiver.

Your experience makes me want to see the top of the lifter more than ever.

Is the gun "new" to you? I ask because we really don't want to talk about the headspace shims in a M12, or the barrel to receiver fit. And, presumably the LEFT extractor is working properly so we won't have to talk about that. (it's concerning that you used the word "extractor" rather than "extractors" in your initial remarks). We also don't want to talk about the lifter and whether, or not it is a correct 2 3/4" type. (We've found 3" lifters in "2 3/4" guns) A picture of the TOP of the lifter would eliminate the possibility of having to talk about this. And, please let's not talk about how easy it is to assemble the M12 with the shell stop out of place, rather than tucked in, behind the barrel extension. I don't want to be reminded of how many times I screwed this up in the past. Since we don't wish to have those conversations, let's talk about ammunition. My experience is that most/all M12s are particular about ammunition -- YMMV -- but that's my experience. I've had to always shell-check each round for the M12, and -- again YMMV -- Winchester AA shells have always worked best for me (once I cull out the 20% of them that are bent, warped, and mutilated). And, of course, the M12 seems to like being clean and generously oiled. I really hope we don't have to have the first four conversations.

[quote author=WildOkDee link=topic=2766.msg18858#msg18858 date=1579211763 2. In an environment such as Winter Range or End of Trail, there are differing types of lube...Is there a preference that is proven for Wild Bunch Matches at either location? One's to steer clear of? I use Wilson Universal. Seems to be the correct viscosity for Winter Range. A couple of years ago, I used Wilson's "Grease", which is a heavier viscosity than the "Universal." Things got sticky in the Winter time with the grease -- too thick for Mother Nature in the cold part of the year.

As long as they're non-adjustable, and don't have beads or dots, you're good to go.

I use non-chlorinated brake cleaner, and Wilson Universal Lube.

Joe: I've got some 5744 on hand. Please share your load. I also have some SR 4759 on hand. I've always had success with it in reduced rifle loads with lead bullets. But, have no idea where to begin with it. Nothing I've found is published about it in the Swede.

Blaze, I never saw Wild Bodie Tom as animated as the day he discovered a recoil buffer in a shooter's pistol. I'll just say he was unambiguous in "suggesting" they were worse than useless. So, on the chance he might end up inside one of my pistols, I never used them. Now that he's gone, I still don't use them for fear of a haunting.

Joe, I thought I'd start with 10 grains of Unique behind 140 grain bullets. Does that sound right to you?

My long search for a Swede finally ended with a very nice Carl Gustaf. It has a regimental disc in place of the armory information disc that most have. The regimental disc suggests it was assigned to a civilian defense unit, rather than put in use by regular infantry. While it shows a fair share of being bumped around, it shows very little actual use. All the numbers match and the bore is sharp. I've been cleaning the bore. I started with Ed's Red and patches were immediately coming out clean. It looks like they took good care of this one. Then, I soaked the bore with Kroll Oil and left it overnight. Patches, again, came out clean the next day. Then.... I used some Bore Tech Eliminator bore cleaner, which has been my favorite for 1000 yard rifles. Now the patches are coming out black with traces of copper. I am seeing no brown on the patches, so am assuming that little or no rust is in the bore. But, the black patches have me a little bit unnerved. My primary question is: What do black patches mean? So, is this carbon fouling, or what? Again, didn't get any of this with the first two "oil" treatments. It's looking like it's going to keep yielding black patches for a long time (forever), so how long should I persist? BTW, I'm using a carbon fiber rod with an aluminum tip. Thanks for any experience you might offer. I'll thank you for getting me into this when some rounds start flying down range. All the best, A.W.

Since no one has mention this..... Springfield 1911s are noted to have short (zero) freebore.

Correct in essence. For some, at the end were stationary targets, depending on the order they chose to shoot targets in. Thanks Pard. We were really lost this time!

Thank goodness no one was hurt!!! That's some really good steel to 'rip' rather than fragment. It almost looks like the previous wad had lodged at the choke (assuming the barrel wasn't cut).

We shot a stage yesterday that had 12 knock down targets, and many stationary plates. At the beginning of the stage, the shooter was required to engage eight of them (K-Ds) with Shotgun, choosing from among the twelve (i.e. 'shooter's choice'). Then, later in the stage, the shooter was required to engage the remaining four knock-down targets (the four that were still standing), and stationary plates during the Pistol string. Several shooters, when using their Pistol, made the "mistake" of engaging one of the downed targets, which had already been engaged with the shotgun. Parenthetically, each shooter who did this actually hit the plate of the downed K-D. We are aware that target placement could be adjusted to have avoided this problem in the first place. Hind sight is 20/20. However, all of our brain power could not come to a decision about the correct call. We are assuming that all twelve knock-down targets were P-SG targets throughout the stage -- they definitely were at the start. Also, since the downed plate was actually hit by the pistol round in each case, we assumed there was not a miss at this point in the stage -- unless the identity of the target was changed by virtue of having engaged it with a another firearm type. Some of the "entertainment" that followed the stage included: 1. A Procedural Penalty should be assigned when a reactive target is re-engaged 2. A Procedural Penalty should be assign when the 'wrong' target was engaged -- i.e. One that was NOT still standing. 3. A Procedural Penalty should be assigned when the Course of Fire could not be completed because of the mistake early in the Pistol String. 4. A Miss should be called because the shooter came up one round short at the end of the Course of Fire for the Pistol String. 5. A Miss should be called because the shooter engaged a target of the 'incorrect type' -- this assumes that the identity of the K-D became a Shotgun Target once it was engaged by the Shotgun and, therefore, was the 'incorrect type' when the shooter got to it with the Pistol After a long discussion, involving all of the shooters on the posse, we decided to ask for help. Help! A.W.