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Adding a 97 trench gun heat shield with bayonet lug to a take down 97 legal?


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Several years ago I ended up with a heat shield for a 97 trench gun with the bayonet lug and sling swivel.  I tried it on one 97 back then and the barrel was to large well today I was playing with it and slide it on my other 97. It went on most of the way it'll take some work to finish the installation if this was a solid frame I feel there would be no problems with the setup.  But since it is a takedown model and I'm I guessing none of the trench guns were take down models this might raise some eyebrows.

 

No to my question to the rules committee will mt 97 take down model with the 97 trench gun heat shield legal under WBAS rules?

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Adding a heat shield to a shotgun that did NOT come from the factory with one would be an External Modification. That particular modification is NOT listed as allowable. Therefore it is ILLEGAL.

 

There are original takedown model 97 trench guns.

 

For instance:

 

http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=10269448

 

http://www.icollector.com/U-S-Marked-Winchester-Model-1897-Trench-Configuration-Takedown-Slide-Action-Shotgun-with-Bayonet_i17062063

 

How are we, as ROs, to determine if a shotgun brought to the line with a heat shield came from the factory that way or not?

 

Consider someone who purchased the shotgun used....They may not even know the heat shield is original equipment or not. 

 

Seems like it would fit the description of replica, though.

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HJ, is that your opinion or that of the rules committee?  After looking at the original photos I realize by barrel is to short got it to fit and still have enough room to take town then shotgun if I desired.  So I'm going to sell it as I had planned to originally.  But it appears to have come off an winchester not a norinco. 
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I'm not here to argue the rules with our members. Arguments only lead to hard feelings and negative outcomes. The rule allows "reproductions". Many of us have the reproductions that were produced in China over the years. They are no longer legal for importation. Original "military style" 1897 shotguns are rare and expensive. Very, very few are used in WBAS competition. Making a "military style" 1897 from a normal civilian style 1897 is NOT listed as an allowable external modification. Therefore adding a heat shield to a civilian 1897 is not allowed. Original military 1897's have special markings on the receivers that are not present on the chinese reproductions but that lack of correct marking was not considered to be sufficient to disallow them as legal "reproductions". Many modern reproductions of early firearms do not have the correct markings. I hope this clears up the questions concerning the rule about "reproductions".

 

We are NOT going to check every shotgun at a match for authenticity. The Chinese reproductions are quite easy to tell from early Winchester originals. We would hope our shooters are honest enough to not use an illegal firearm. The use of illegal equipment is a MDQ for scoring purposes.

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Finally I got an explanation.  But I'll never agree with it 100% since I'm personally having problems with the proper heat shield ie one that came off a 97 to begin with being put on another 97 for this game but I will oblige you on it so I guess I got stuck with this part.  If it's legal on one gun I don't see what makes it illegal on another gun of the same basic type. With All the things that are allowed to the 1911s that make them far from the basic gun of the day.  I guess now that model 12 s are legal and available the 97 will be a smaller part of the game.  Remember that is what this is. 
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Blackie, as a 1911 gunsmith, I will add a comment or 5. No offence on you either, just a couple things to say.

 

The Traditional class mods are kept to a bare minimum to allow those who wish to maintain the belief of using a 1911 as close to as issued to be just that. You may shoot it in that category and certainly nothing to stop you in shooting it two handed in Modern as well. That does not equate backwards by being able to use a Modern gun in Traditional however. Please remember, that back when, shall we say. That to get people involved in this, PERHAPS, the allowance of certain modifications may, or may not should not of occured. Jet forward a year or two from then. The cat was already out of the bag so to speak.... So ya would have a real issue backing up at the risk of losing shooters perhaps that joined in for many reasons. I have an opinion on all that, as I am absolutely positive everyone else does as well. The fact remains, if you open a door you will let in something. So, where it is at this time, you must commend the committee that set the rules to properly maintain them. Anyone that knows me and what my main Modern gun is, knows I run right up against the rules. However, I do not, and will not break them. Rest assured however, I can run with the pack with a basic stock gun just as well..... Some of seen that happen.

  So we have the best of both worlds in the fact that we can choose to be "racey" or tradtional.... I think that is a pretty good thing. Just sayin. Please do not take offense on the issue of the heat shield. Honestly, unless ya pointed out, nobody would even care. We enjoy the shooting so much, who cares. We do not have a tech inspection at the matches anyway. UNLESS someone complains, I have never had the oppotunity to call anyone anyway.

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks

 

Bodie

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Tom is spot on.

 

95% of the TOs wouldn't have a clue if you made a replica trench gun.  Additionally, they wouldn't know that you can buy a chineese made replica and shoot that, but not one you made yourself. Nor, would I expect, that they really cared that you created the replica trench gun.

 

Let's go shoot and have some fun!

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HJ, your statement that Chinese trench guns are now illegal for import is the first time I have heard that. Would you please advise where you came on that? I thought the Chinese had just stopped making any 97s at this time. Seems the 870 et al clones are much bigger sellers, much easier to make and much more profitable.

 

I know POTUS has banned Russian arms imports but I have sure not heard of any recent ban on any Chinese products.

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BJ, while the To might not care I guess that HJ does.  I tried selling the part here and they deleted it twice.  The HJ finally conceded that if I was to put a disclaimer that the part could only be used to restore an existing trench gun but not to build a new one at that point I decided it wasn't worth it.  I also decided to vote with my wallet and refrain from shooting any WBAS match because of the stringent rule interpretations by the committee.  I can not see the difference between a trench gun from Winchester or norinco  and one that uses the same parts by a gunsmith or shooter. 
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I wonder what this phrase means: "ANY EXTERNAL MODIFICATION TO ANY FIREARM NOT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED IN THIS HANDBOOK IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED!" , from page 13 of the SASS Wild Bunch Handbook Version 7.0 - July 2014?

 

Those WBAS folks are just way too strict in their wanting to enforce the stated rules...I'll tell you what...I'm just gonna sulk, and then I'm gonna take my toys and go home, and never, never, ever come back...let's see how they like that

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I wonder what this phrase means: "ANY EXTERNAL MODIFICATION TO ANY FIREARM NOT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED IN THIS HANDBOOK IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED!" , from page 13 of the SASS Wild Bunch Handbook Version 7.0 - July 2014?

 

Those WBAS folks are just way too strict in their wanting to enforce the stated rules...I'll tell you what...I'm just gonna sulk, and then I'm gonna take my toys and go home, and never, never, ever come back...let's see how they like that

 

Now that is Amazing!!!!!

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Now that is Amazing!!!!!

Aint it though?  It's simply amazing that some folks just can't understand what's written in black and white right in front of them.  And, since they can't seem to grasp what's spelled out for them, they figure they can just ignore it...then get their knickers all tied up in a knot when they get caught doing so.

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I understand what is written in black and white but I don't understand the difference between a winchester 1897 with a heat shield and bayonet lug from winchester and a winchester 1897 that had the same heat shield with bayonet lug added after it left the factory.  What's the difference? 
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Blackey,

There is probably no difference.  The rules committee has listed the external modifications that are common to the three guns we shoot.  They have excluded all other external modifications because they don't have the time to give a yay or nay on every modification that creative minds can come up with.  Believe me, it would be a deluge.

 

If you must make the modification, recognize that you have illegal equipment and you can not shoot for a score.  I was a MD at a club annual Friday and a shooter declared herself illegal to me before the first round was fired.  Because of medical issues, she shoots a 20 gauge and a .32 mag Marlin, two illegal guns.  She said she was there to shoot and have fun and didn't care about the score.  I respect that and the other shooters did too.

JFN

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My point is what makes it a trench gun is the parts not the manufacturer.  What if another importer,maker decided to make trench guns like they have with regular 97s and 87s would those be legal.  And since both my 97 s have had barrels cut and work to mark them cowboy ready prior to me getting them to use in WBAS.  How do I know one of them didn't start out as a trench gun years ago.  A butt stock swapped etc and such.

 

I just have a hard time seeing how adding the heat shield which is legal one one gun can be illegal on another.  It like saying your boots are illegal because you had them resoled with the soles of another legal boot.

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