7 Round Mags in Wild Bunch

[Joe Lafives 5481L]

Lafives,

 

I shoot cowboy and Wild Bunch with the expectation that it is a game.  I do things in each of them that I would never do in a real gunfight.

 

I practice and do stuff in Cowboy and Wild Bunch.

 

I also practice and do stuff for my personal defense.

 

If you are going to WB or SASS matches to work on your "real gunfight" skills, the NRA and other private groups offer some great classes on the subject that you may find help broaden your knowledge base.

 

You seem to think you will be able to choose which skill set will take over when SHTF.  What you practice the most is the default you will arrive at. 

[evilroy]

Lots of great discussion here.  Many good points.

Here are some things to think about.  There is not one shooting sport I know of which requires 7 rounds in a 1911.  We could be the first but to suggest that 5 rounds is hurting the sport is wrong in my view.  Does it hurt your chance of survival in a real gun fight that we don't carry 7 rounds in the magazine and require the slide to be racked?  I carry a Glock 19 with 16 rounds for my concealed carry gun.  Cowboy action does not seem to hurt my Glock shooting.  I have never tried to cock the hammer on my Glock or quit shooting after 5 rounds.  I shoot my favorite gun the most these days.  My Colt 1911.  I still carry the Glock because it is the best carry gun in my opinion.  I have never tried to rack the slide as I draw it. Again have never quit shooting after 5 rounds. Would I be unable to defend myself with my Glock because I shoot a 1911 with 5 rounds in it.  Hardly.  Do you think a good IPSC or IDPA shooter who shoots a 1911 style pistol with 28 rounds and a 1 1/2 pound trigger would somehow be at a disadvantage defending themselves with a Glock with a 5 1/2 trigger and 15 rounds?  Does shooting 5 rounds in WB hurt you is a defensive situation? Competition is just a game. Non of it teaches self defense.  They all have their rules most of which has nothing to do with protecting yourself.  What does help is actually shooting under pressure. Lots of trigger time with any firearm is good.  I tell my students that they will learn more in one match of any kind than they will shooting targets for months.  Shooting under pressure, concentrating on sight alignment, getting use to noise and recoil and thinking under stress are all good things about competing. Like the lady said go to a self defense class to learn tactics to protect yourself.  Again I don't care how many rounds we load in the mag.  It just seems considering we have to set up and move steel, move with an open gun and other considerations works well with 5.  I think the biggest thing is many think Cowboy Action is just silly because of the dress up and many in the shooting world think none of us know how to shoot.  I do think WB is the easiest shooting sport to transition to because we have very simple rules, there is no loading of the shotgun on the clock and the gear is pretty simple.

[Hondo Jackson]

WB is a sport and all sports have rules.  In my experience, 5 in the mag is not hurting WB.  I shoot IDPA as well as WB and CAS.  The dress is what my fellow IDPA shooters tell me is what they do not like about SASS.  In IDPA as Sassy stated, you only load ten and that is not a problem with IDPA.  95% of our WB shooters in Greenville come from CAS.  5 rounds in a pistol is what they are use to.  It would be difficult for most of them to transition to WB if it were anything else.  I believe it is best to leave the rules as they are, shoot the sport and just have fun!

Just my 2 cents!

Hondo

 

[Boggus Deal]

5 rounds, 7 rounds, costuming. it doesn't really matter. As Evil Roy said, people who make excuses to not shoot are going to make excuses no matter. Our problem is exposure. The reason we don't draw new shooters is no one knows we are here. I shoot a lot of other sports and as soon as I mention shooting CAS or Wild Bunch, the first question I get asked is "How does blanks bust those balloons?" They know nothing about CAS or Wild Bunch. All they have ever seen is Mounted Shooting. Whether is been on tv, in the gun magazines or wherever, they haven't seen our sports. Just Mounted. Shooting.

I can't wait to get my hands on Dusty Boddam's article in WSJ. I would like to see if I could get several copies of the article just to spread around at stores, shoots and anywhere else I can.

[evilroy]

Most of the time when I talk to people they ask questions about fast draw even after I explain to them what we do. When I talk to them weeks later they say "that's that fast draw guy".  Part of the reason is SASS has down played the competition so much that other shooting sports do not consider us a shooting sport. This is carrying over to WB which is a very serious shooting sport just like CAS is.  Folks who want to compete don't think of either one as shooting competition.  I started shooting SASS in Durango because of the competition and I was fortunate to have 2 very competitive shooters in the club.  We have to appeal to shooters who want to compete.  I think we have to stress that fact that the dress factor here is minimal and still make it clear to those who are into the history part that they are welcome and encouraged to dress in period clothing if they desire to do so.  We are establishing a Senior category, we have allowed model 12 shotguns and have changed a few rules to make the game more palpable to some.  The matches held in conjunction with CAS matches are very popular because SASS members know what we do.  We need to push the matches within SASS with the goal of expanding it to the shooting masses outside of SASS.  As far as the 5 round rule changing it will only help separate it some from SASS and maybe tick off some who do like shooting 5.  Which is best? 

[Wild Bodie Tom]

Okay Gene. You asked....

Let the shooter him/her self determine the amount of rounds to load in their magazines for the particular stage. Remember. You asked.... LOL

 

Just sayin

 

Wild Bodie Tom

[El Mulo Vaquero]

I believe Gene is looking for serious input and ideas to work with the committee to help in the growth of WB.  I sent him the post below, and have since had a good positive conversation with him about this.  I would encourage others to as well!

 

Gene, after reading some of the wild bunch wire post under 7 rounds in magazine thread, I was going to post this below, but then thought better to just send it to you, and prevent the wire repercussions.

 

So, what I am hearing from the "committee" members is it doesn't really matter to them to shoot 5 or 7.  Dressing up is holding back new shooters.  Don't ask to change the rules, just shoot.  Exposure to the sport is lacking.  After looking at MANY monthly scores across the southwest, including some of the shooters clubs represented here, as well as our own monthly...we can barely muster much more than half a dozen shooters.  WHY wouldn't we look to have some change, even to eliminate outsiders perception of the sport, such as the 5 round rule change..or ANY other changes that might attract any new shooters.  Our club is part of a larger 1000+ member shooting range, we have promoted at general meetings, shot\promoted with IPSC,Idpa, 3 gun, and we have yet to recruit any new members.  We had a couple IPSC shooters come, but they have since stopped.  The shooters we have are from CAS.  We have shot stand alone WB matches since its inception, (4 years now) advertised in the WB match section (some 3000 views), and have yet to have any WB visitors.  We are down to asking for rsvp's for match attendance to be sure we have anybody show up.  I am being blatantly honest here with my post, and frustrated about our future.

 

I believe if there is going to be any growth, there must be some change or ideas, at this point in the game.

 

[Boggus Deal]

El Mulo Vaquero,

I, personally, deeply regret not making it up to shoot with you all, as the ambassador for this region. I will see if I can do that soon!

Boggus

[Tully Mars]

Personally I believe the rifle to be the biggest hurdle for shooters from other disciplines. We put less emphasis on it and the round count is lower. The cost of a rifle and the reloading set up to support it is a lot.

 

So! How about a "Professionals" category?  Men, women, young and old all combined.

 

1911 that meets current WB rules.

12 Gauge pump shotgun. Any pump. Have the shooter load it on the line under the TO's supervision.

No rifle!!

 

Most shooters from other sports will more than likely have this equipment. And who wouldn't want t an excuse to buy a 1911?

 

Shooter decides whether to load 5 or 7 and announces that decision at the line.

 

All rifle targets are shot with the 1911!

 

Tully

 

 

[Sgt. John Campbell]

Personally I believe the rifle to be the biggest hurdle for shooters from other disciplines. We put less emphasis on it and the round count is lower. The cost of a rifle and the reloading set up to support it is a lot.

 

So! How about a "Professionals" category?  Men, women, young and old all combined.

 

1911 that meets current WB rules.

12 Gauge pump shotgun. Any pump. Have the shooter load it on the line under the TO's supervision.

No rifle!!

I tend to agree that the rifle aspect may be one thing that may be presenting a hurdle.  However, I don't agree that we should do away with the rifle.  The biggest obstacle I've heard is the requirement for .40 caliber or larger rifle.  If this were changed to .357 caliber or larger, with a minimum 150 power factor, this would be a much better solution.  My logic is based on the fact that many shooters already use .357 caliber rifles as their main match rifles in CAS, allowing them in WBAS with a firm minimum power factor would definitely help us sway some of the folks to our side of the fence.

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

I still think that we need more exposure. There are so many folks that don't really know what we do. Telling folks one time won't get the job done people have be reminded several times before a point is committed to memory AND then they have to have a place to go try it. I don't know if it's equipment or not because at my home club we have an open class that is defined as ANY pump shotgun, any 1911 and ANY SASS legal  rifle. I think we have had 2 shooters in 3 years for that category ........as far as costuming goes when you go to any other type of match they are in costume. Any time you buy special clothes to shoot or hunt out of that's costuming. Look at all the "tactical" clothes out there COSTUMING!  ;D Dusty boddams

[evilroy]

Again.  Many good points.  I agree with Dusty in that we need more positive exposure to let people know what we do and how much fun it is.  WB is very popular when held with CAS shoots where what it is  known.  it has been proved that allowing a .357 rifle does not result in more shooters. It is and has been tried in many clubs.  It is and always has been a big bore sport.  5 round or 7 round really does not seem to matter to those who do shoot which are mostly CAS shooters.  Negative comments about the 5 round rule usually come from combat shooters many of who have a negative view of CAS as a shooting sport for several reasons.  Same with the dress up part. If you eliminated both the concerns of costuming and mag capacity many of those same shooters would not change their opinion. If you changed both costuming and mag capacity it would only help change the perception of not being SASS with a 1911 but I am not sure it would result in more shooters.  Conclusion is that the combat shooters are a hard sell. Any serious shooter will shoot whatever mag capacity is required and information about dress can be addressed with exposure.  A hat and work boots cannot be a reason not to shoot.  The equipment deal doesn't not stop people from spending lots of money to shoot modern 3 gun or CAS or buying motorcycles or boats.  People do that because the WANT to do things.  We need to make the WANT to shoot with us.  Good positive articles and TV coverage will help. I am going to try to get an article in an NRA publication which is pretty difficult.  Kane Robertson said he would help all he can which won't hurt.

[Hondo Jackson]

I shot an IDPA match today.  At the shooters' meeting I talked about WB.  We had one IDPA shooter shoot our last monthly WB Match.  He had fun and did very well with the pistol.  I let him talk about WB and that it is a 'real' shooting sport built around the 1911 with all metal targets and lots of reactive.  We are having the SC State WB Match at the end of the month and I invited them to come and watch.  I had several say they were going to check it out.  It was very positive.  So, we shall see if it did any good.  We have 44 signed up for the state match, so we are growing, slowly but growing.

Hondo

[Blackey Cole]

That's great your number almost out numbers the number signed up for the four corners regional from a email I received this weekend we had between 70 & 80 from four states signed up for the match later this month in regular CAS.

[Allie Mo]

FYI, we had a 70 round stage Saturday. Everyone switched from 5 to 7 rounds in their magazines. Of the 6 of us shooting, 2 got SDQs for moving with the slide forward after the 5th round. I was barely saved from doing it too.

[Wild Bodie Tom]

Boy. Do I want to chime in..... LOL

 

But, I shall not!

 

Bodie

[Two Dot]

You wuss!

[Wild Bodie Tom]

YUP! LOL

[Allie Mo]

You wuss!

Maybe I scared him speechless!  :o ;)

[Buffler Jim]

I don't really think that's the reason he's speechless!  ::)

[Wild Bodie Tom]

Well, I have to be nice now..... Its a work in progress shall we say. So in lieu of comin off possibly in the wrong way, or being my typical cynical S/A old self, I find sometimes, better to just say nothing.....LOL

BUT, as a caveat, although I am seriously attempting to change so to speak, there will be an occassional slip.... Hard to stop old habits.... Hee Hee.

 

See ya.

 

Thanks

 

Bodie