J. Frank Norfleet

HJ Do what you may, I still want to know who made it. JFN

Looking for a specific mag release and maybe someone knows who made it. The standard Colt mag release is .855 inch. Most extended mag releases add 1/16th of an inch and come out more or less .925 inch. I can find these all over (I use Brownells). I came across a mag release on a used customized pistol that measures 1.055 inch. It is extended and not oversize so it is still legal for WBAS. Looking for one for a friend and my search has turned up zero. So does anyone know who makes these? JFN

No, Happy Jack gave you the definitive answer on the other post. You have to manually clear the pistol. This happens frequently for what ever reason. Don't fire the rounds in the berm: 15.The penalty for using “illegally acquired” ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) or overloaded rounds that are fired will be a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo will be scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time. Shooters Handbook p 24 Manually clear the pistol and lock the slide back by placing the trigger finger on your left hand under the slide stop as you pull the slide back with the right hand. Do not switch hands with a loaded pistol. You will get a SDQ • No cocked, loaded pistol may ever leave a shooter’s hand (Stage Disqualification). This also means from one hand to the other. This does not apply to clearing malfunctions. Shooters Handbook P.7 JFN

With EOT coming up I thought that this should be moved back to the top. JFN

Wow! That's almost 50 rounds per stage! No wonder you were worn out. It wasn't the 7 round mags that got you, it was the high round count per stage. Sounds like someone has been listening to WBT. Even though the brass picking is a bear, bet it was fun to get to blast away like that! I would have liked to have been there. JFN

Now that is way too cool, Granddad! There are a number of things like thin grips and short triggers that can help small hands. JFN

Wow guys! I thought my understanding of what I was told last year was real simple, "The only malfunction where a loaded mag could be inserted was a failure of the slide stop to engage after the last round was fired." All other reloads including an ammo problem meant the slide must be locked back before a magazine was inserted in the pistol. My asking a shooter to lock back the slide (after having two rounds fail to chamber) was where all this discussion began. I could also go for GJ's definition of a malfunction in post #2 and what HJ in post #3 that is simple too. As for me clearing a type III and then firing the round in the chamber. After firing that round, the malfunction is now clear and to insert a mag it must be at slide lock. As a safety issue I worry more about a shooter with weak or stiff hands struggling to lock a slide back than I do with a shooter inserting a loaded mag with the slide down. JFN

Like I said I have solved the mag problem. But the way I would handle it if it happens again. 1) Hit the mag release button and let the mag drop just enough to let the slide go to battery. If it chambers the round, I will reseat the mag (which never left the pistol) and continue the course of fire. 2) If the round doesn't chamber or the mag not reseat, I will drop the mag and clear the pistol and insert a fresh mag with the slide down on an empty chamber. :) JFN PS this is the process I followed toward the end of my problems.

Of course not! I was trying to ask a question without naming names or pointing fingers. Looking forward to Saturday, Joe! JFN

Jack and Joe, Thanks for the clarification. I was laboring under a misinterpretation. Last year I had a series of mag induced type III malfunctions at several matches including EOT. When I stripped the partial mag out, the slide would chamber the offending round. Was told that I couldn't reinsert the partial mag because that was a tactical reload (that definition is clear from previous discussions). After I shot the chambered round I was told I had to lock the slide back to reload before I could insert a mag even though a malfunction had started the whole mess. Until I identified where the problem was I had been told that the only malfunction allowed where a mag could be inserted slide down was a slide stop failure. So Goody, you are correct that my call last weekend was a bad one and the shooter deserved a reshoot, which he got. Again, that is why I ask these questions here. I hate it when I make a bad call. JFN

You are correct Goody. After a match I think about things I saw and the questions begin. I remembered seeing this and reflected on the time I allowed a shooter to stage a magazine on edge. That's where I got read the flat rule. So I wondered why set the rifle on the saddle ring? Didn't intend to offend or point fingers at anyone, just wondered. (Although I have enjoyed watching GJ get all worked up.) And, I have learned about giving shooters with physical limitations an exception. So this has been very informative for me which is why I ask these questions. Since it didn't give that shooter an advantage, if I were MD I probably let him do it. I have never shot a match where a shooter was wheel chair bound. Don't shoot CAS and have never seen one in WBAS. But I have wondered how that would work because I agree with everything that Garrison Joe said about accommodating shooters with handicaps. So thank all of you for the input. JFN P.S. GJ, have you quit kicking your dog yet?

The point is where was it clarified? Here on the rules forum or in a personal conversation? In my last discussion (not here) my understanding was as stated. That is why I would like someone from the rules committee clarify it here so I don't make a bad call. JFN

My understanding is that any shooter accommodations for handicaps have to be approved by the WBAS RO Committee, not posse marshals or match directors, monthly club matches excepted. JFB

It is my understanding that the only malfunction that allows the shooter to insert a loaded magazine with the slide down is when the slide fails to lock after the last round is fired. ALL other malfunctions whether shooter induced or ammo problems the shooter is required to lock the slide back before inserting a mag. Have I missed something? • All reloads shall be from slide lock, no “tactical reloads.” You may not reload the pistol with a round in the chamber. (MSV) You may NOT reload a single round in the 1911 by placing it in the chamber and then closing the slide. (MSV) All ammunition must be loaded from a magazine. All reloads shall be from slide lock. (Failure to do so, MSV) If after firing all the rounds in the magazine the slide lock fails and the shooter needs to reload without moving, one may do so without locking the slide back before inserting the new magazine. This is considered a malfunction. Safe reloads after any type of malfunction are legal.

The stage conventions state: 3. All staged guns shall have their barrels pointed safely down range. All long guns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface shall be staged lying flat where at least the rear of the trigger guard is on the staging area. All handguns initially staged on a horizontal flat surface must be staged with the entire handgun lying flat on the staging surface. So is it legal for a shooter with a saddle ring carbine to carefully prop the the rifle up on the ring so the ring is holding the rifle up at an angle toward the shooter? JFN

Dittos to that Goody! Great match, great stages, great food and a great time. Thanks to all for your hard work. JFN

I sure thought you would have gotten some argument to this by now. I agree with you. I have started running 12.5 lb springs. Picked up a 1911 that had a heavy spring in it, a lot more felt recoil. Dropped a 12.5 spring in and it is a whole different pistol. JFN

Jimmy Mitchell bulletworks.com has done an action job and built 2 pistols for me. Good work. JFN

DB, Generally 25 rounds, tho I like 30 too. Since most folks carry 6 mags and one in the pistol that leaves an extra mag or two for a wreck. I like movement and seeing a new set of targets at each shooting position. Rarely do I do any stand and deliver, although they can be fun too. Also I like stages that give shooters an option of moving down range or staying in a spot for far targets. Found a couple of stages in my file and have emailed them to you. JFN

DB, I don't have any expectations at this point. If it changes GREAT!, if not I keep shooting. I didn't start this poll because I was on a crusade. I started it out of curiosity. The rumor that came to me at WR (and that is all it may be, a rumor) was that the WBAS committee thought that the only folks wanting 7 rounds to a mag were newbie shooters. Frankly, I am surprised that since the poll started that it has been a strong 2/3rds if favor of 7 rounds. Yes, I write pistol only stages. No, I never shot the stage above with seven rounders. But I think I can answer your question. Smart folks shot it 10 rifle, 6 shotgun and 10+ pistol. (BTW - I think it was comstock on the knockdowns. Extra rounds could be expended on getting a KD down or dumped on a stationary target. All guns must be shot dry.) At BS I shot it 25 pistol and at EOT I shot it like everybody else. So, count the transitions: beep to rifle, rifle to shotgun, shotgun to pistol and one mag change = 4 transitions for 26 rounds. All pistol with 5 round mags: beep to pistol and 4 mag changes = 5 transitions for 25 rounds (if you wanted to make up a missed KD that adds another mag change and a dump). All pistol with 7 rounders: beep to pistol and 3 mag changes = 4 transitions for 28 rounds. Since my splits on the pistol are much faster than the rifle I would opt for all pistol with 7 round mags, unless there are some targets way out there. If a shooter knows their transition times and splits on each gun at different target distances they can reason this out. JFN

Here is some food for thought. My second major WB match was BS in 2011. On the stage 7 was my first shooters choice stage; 25 targets shot from the bank, shooters line was, "Them's Washers!" I shot it all pistol and didn't come close to the top times. The shooters who did well loaded 11 (or more) in their rifle (there are no maximum # of rounds you can load in the rifle or shotgun), they shot the shotgun second and wrapped it up with a couple of pistol mags. This stage taught me lots about competing in WBAS. We talk about the 1911 being king (John Browning was a genius), the shotgun being second and the rifle for extra variety. But with a shooters choice stage see which guns the shooters reach for first, it is not the 1911! When we shot this same stage at EOT that year the match writers had written in 10 and 6 round limits on the rifle and the shotgun. Having learned my lesson, I shot it rifle, shotgun and pistol. Had I been able to shoot it with 7 rounders and cut out a mag change I would have shot it all pistol. JFN

DB, They are great folks; my favorite club to shoot with. Bogus and I have written them stages and I wrote four for their annual last year. It just seems hard for them to write stages for more than 10 pistol. There has been lots of progress. So Bogus and I need to write them for a while. JFN

The matches I write for will probably keep the round count the same and drop a mag change. Except it will allow me to write more shooters choice stages where the shooter has a choice of any or all three guns to shoot. I bet a lot of folks will run them all pistol!

GJ, I think I did that 2 years ago http://sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=813.0 JFN

Goatneck, Your round count assumes we keep the same number of mag changes per stage, if the goal is a certain number of mag changes then this truly a mag change game. My assumption is that the round counts will essentially stay the same: 4 mags/20 rounds to 3 mags/21 rounds 5 mags/25 rounds to 4 mags/28 rounds 6 mags/30 rounds to 5 mags/35 rounds The current setup adds an unnecessary mag change. Another transition just to keep the round count the same for those who shoot CAS. One of the interesting things I notice is if a stage is written so the shooter can choose any or all guns to shoot it, the 1911 is the last gun chosen because of the low # of rounds in the mag and the time added by mag changes. What does that tell us about the role of the 1911 in shooting WBAS? To answer your question, any WBAS match I attend costs me a minimum of $40 in fuel. I go to shoot, so yes if the round count went up I would gladly shoot it. It would make WBAS truly a 1911 game which appeals to non-SASS shooters. JFN