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Procedural for firing more rounds than required by the stage instructions.

Hmmm... the OP asked a question and received a very plausible answer in the first response. Unless you were involved in drafting either set of rules... it's just speculation on your part, and your speculation is just as valid as the next person's. Nothing to get worked up about. The earliest rule book I have digitized (1989), specifies that #4 shot is the largest allowable. Somewhere I have rule books from EOT in 1986 & the original SASS rule book from 1987. As I recall, both specify the same. So that rule pre-dates my earliest recollections in cowboy action. If that rule follows the trend of other rules, it's in place because someone use a larger shot size and created a real or perceived safety hazard. 'Nough said. I've used #7-½, 8 & 9 shot in both CAS and WB and haven't encountered a difference worth noting. The earliest WB Handbook I have digitized is from 2009, the first edition and specifies the largest size shot as #6. No explanation provided. GJ's speculation is certainly plausible. Maybe PM Happy Jack, as I seem to recall his being involved in drafting the initial WB rules. Or, at least an early member of the WBROC. Really? Differences of opinion are inevitable. Expressing varied opinions are what make us THINK. It's called communicating. And communicating is what makes a community. SASS is a big community... I don't know anyone that agrees with EVERYTHING... And if they do... I have to wonder they've ever had an independent thought?

Last year we had about $2500 in prizes and raffles. 2 guns, full rigs, bullets, glasses etc.... This year we have a Model 12, 3 wild bunch rigs, bullets, whiskey, eye glass gift certificates, knives, ar-500 targets, engraved items, coasters, gun cart personalized name plates, and a surprised hand autographed Tombstone poster signed by a cast member.... Sign up by May 10th for a Free t-shirt.

Please remove your email addy from your post. Scammers lurk here!! Reported just in case

I've been running 4.3 gr. of VV N320 with a 230 gr. Desperado Cowboy bullet. Won 2 Senior Traditional World Championships with it. One with an SR 1911 and one with a Colt. Must be doing something right. Marshal Stone

Before the shoot they were offering to check anyone that wanted their ammo checked. Two years ago they had a WB shooter prize of a Garmin chrono. Kid Rich won it. kR

This also includes the IAC 93/97. It is only legal in Wild Bunch. The original "93 IS NOT LEGAL. Marshal Stone

After reloading for the 45 Auto for 50+ years, without a checker of any sort, 1st on a RCBS Jr single stage, then since 1987 on a Dillon 550B, no problems to speak of*. Until WB came along, I'd only loaded two bullets in the 45 Auto. A H&G 68 for target work and Speers 4477 HP for SD. They simply worked in all 4 of my 1911s, a Gold Cup, surplus Navy issue Colt, a parts gun I built and a Combat Commander. This entire time I loaded using the same RCBS die set until I got the Dillon. So... in 1987 I began using a Dillon Carbide sizer, but the kept using RCBS seat/crimp die. Frankly, the 45 Auto is so easy to load for, it surprises me when folks have problems. Cases don't grow in length like a rifle cartridge, if anything, they get beat a little shorter, but that's never seemed to become a problem. I've never encountered a split case. When I put my Combat Commander on my "duty gun" list in 1982, the department armorer found an issue I'd been totally unaware of... Something he called "ramping"... Now, all of a sudden my carry gun could feed full wadcutters. I still somewhat haphazardly load my 45 Auto rounds... a 200 grain RFN in front of 4.3 grains of TiteGroup and a Winchester WLP yield ~800 fps for a PF of around 160. This load works a treat in my two Taylor's Tactical 1911s, a Rock Island, and the 4 mentioned above. They've all been "ramped", had the rails polished and run with oil. Most issues with the 1911 platform are with the magazines and operator. You simply cannot "limp wrist" one. While Tripp Research & Wilson Combat mags are probably the best, my CMC Shooting Star mags have served me well.** The worst issue with the 45 Auto is small primer cases. * Besides... ain't an occasional bump with the palm part of the standard "manual of arms" for the 1911? 😁 ** I don't care who the maker is... when folks walk on 'em... they're pretty much toast! So watch where you put your clodhoppers! Learn how to keep your magazines clean, follower straight and lips bent. I'm still using some military mags issued in the early '70s. With proper maintenance, they can last a lifetime. (Theirs, not yours, metal does fatigue).

Every reference to Shotgun modifications, found in the SHB pg. 18,19, state if found on the original firearm type. If there was a shroud and/or bayonet lug on an original Model 12, it's acceptable to install a new one.

Once again, and for the last time I hope, the 4 and 6 denote the LARGEST size allowed. Yes, most folk use 7.5 shot, more pellets on target. SASS said, when they made this rule, they wanted to reduce bounce/splatter. Simple as that. Find another rule to argue about

OK, using that logic, why use any time at all to make sure it is CLEAR, at the end of the stage?

What was the basis for that call?

I may not have the extensive shooting experience or resume of others on this thread, but, having timed it on numerous occasions, there is slightly more than a 1/2 second advantage for me on a 10 shot string, using my .38/357 rifle and loads. Over 10 stages that is quite significant. YMMV. Cheers, FJT

This is a forum, not an airport. There's no need to announce your departure.

Plenty of us are thrilled about allowing .38 rifles. Count me as one of them. I never shot Wild Bunch and had no intention of buying a bigger rifle just to do it. Now it's become one of my favorite shooting sports. The rule of .40 or larger never made any sense and the power factor means nothing. If anyone took their ball and went home because .38s get to play, there will be plenty to replace them.

Now,now, boys!!!

No No NO. If they want to shoot under 150, for rifle, shoot wild bunch aka mild bunch aka wild bunch lite. But the range/club should understand 150pf for pistol stays. period.dot. It's not the Rifle PF that kept shooters away from WB, it's the cost of the equipment. Just about everyone has, or had, access to a single stack 1911. It was the shotgun and large caliber rifle that scared, potential, shooters away. Not the rifle PF. Now that there is WB for those who don't have, or want to get, the shotgun and rifle, and Classic for those who do. Again, Rifle PF has nothing to do with it.

Power factor for pistol is, and always was, 150. Power factor for Wild Bunch Rifle is 60 Power factor for Classic Wild Bunch Rifle is 150 The PF for Pistols was never changed. If a club decides to no longer offer WB because of the 150 PF for Classic Rifle, they need to acknowledge the PF for ALL Pistols, forever, has been 150. Nothing new here. Figure some other reason to not allow WB.

Mine get edited when I spot a typo after posting it, or I want to comment on another point, like I did about the question of how the OP's ammo looked. None were edited after another poster added their reply. GJ

Bring all rifle power factor back to 150

Tall John, You will notice that some posts are all edited because they are originally wrong and googled based, not experience and success based.

AW & GJ sorry for the misunderstanding. I posted the above for information only. Since I shoot primarily small primer brass, I have been asked if there is a difference in velocity. While I felt that small primer brass lowered the velocity, I had never compared them side by side. My only fallacy in the test is that the primers are not all from the same manufacturer; as, I am now wondering if all Winchester primers are "hotter." So let me be clear. I don't feel the need nor compunction to justify a superior brass to you or anyone else. :) JFN

A lot of folks use it to ensure PF in case there's a challenge.

SHB Pg. 10. 4th line down. "Any firearm modification not referenced in this handbook is prohibited." So, nope.

Didn't find it? Then the modification of using an oversized mag release is illegal. Unless it's a completely internal modification, in which case it IS allowed. Now, the Traditional 1911 may have neither extended nor oversized release: And the Modern 1911 may have an extended release but not an oversized one: I'll take it that the question you had was about the Mag Release, not about the Thumb Safety that the title of the post seems to talk about. For that, the Traditional pistol uses only a standard Thumb safety. And the Modern can use an extended thumb safety. See same Pistol Modifications lists on page 13. Grip Safety follows the same pattern - standard grip safety nromally, but a oversized (beavertail) safety allowed on Modern guns. good luck, GJ

Great match last year, we’ll be there again this year!

You, again, are wrong. The members suggest things to their TG's. The TG's discuss these suggestions and, if warranted, have clubs vote via the TG's. Then, if it's not a potential liability to SASS where HQ has to step in, the results of the vote are adopted. His suggestion, may or not be determined to be valid enough to warrant a club vote. Again, if you don't like SASS go somewhere else.

Well, yeah, according to SASS, he does make the rules. He’s a paid member and his vote to his TG should determine the rules. That being said, it really doesn’t matter what shooters want. SASS will do whatever they please.

I don't even think we should be allowing large birdshot. There's no reason and it's more danger because it retains more energy. I don't see how or why that turns into some sort of argument; you're simply reading something that isn't there.

I wanted to know if I was crazy so I asked ChatGPT. Excluding buckshot and non-toxic shot, somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of all shotshells sold are 7 1/2 or smaller. I think 1 in 3 to 1 in 4 shells is pretty uncommon. 4 and 6 are not common or widely used outside of hunting. They're entirely banned from clay target fields. That they can be purchased at Wal-Mart doesn't tell me anything. I can buy and load #4 shot at Sportsman's any day of the week. It's never sold out because nobody wants it. If you don't consider that uncommon, choose your own word to describe it. There is not a widespread use for large, lead birdshot other than hunting of upland game large enough to require it, which I do not do, because I am a shooter, not a hunter.

I wouldn't be using either one. Clay ranges are limited to 7 1/2 so I don't keep any shot bigger than that and I usually just use #8.

If it was up to me, we'd run a hot range all the time and that wouldn't make me uncomfortable at all. Rules are rules, and if there was a violation of the rules, a penalty should apply. But pretending like we are doing anything to increase safety by dinging the guy for what we saw here isn't adding anything.

There is no rule about keeping the trigger finger off the trigger when initially charging the pistol. The only finger rule is; when changing mags, moving, correcting malfunctions. WBAS SHB Pg 14 "When handling the 1911, the shooter’s trigger finger must be outside the trigger guard when moving, reloading, or clearing a malfunction after the pistol is first charged." No call on the trigger finger. SDQ on the 1911 after the rifle smacked it, though.

Broke the 170, SDQ Hard to see at the start, what about the finger on the trigger while racking the slide?

Spent many years blacksmithing on steel. You hit a piece of steel 28 times x 20 shooters, the steel reacts differently than hitting it 8 times x 20 shooters. Don't believe it? Grab a piece of 3/8 steel, ar or not, and hit it 460 times and hit another 160 times. Then do this 12 more times. See what the steel tells you. Steel doesn't lie.

Chapo, it seems you are correct about my assumptions from last night! I spent the afternoon at the range again and frankly, now I think the main problem is Limp Wrist syndrome. today, both handguns locked up on me multiple times using my reloads. But Wait it happened again when I used the commercial rounds and I noticed a more significant muzzle flip. As I’ve said in earlier posts, the 1911 is a brand new platform for me and getting data on my reloads led me to use a pistol rest such that I could position my Athlon chrono right under the muzzle. So I reloaded all of the bad rounds into a mag and assumed the correct position and my Ruger and then my Taurus ate every round and 150 more without another issue. As such, I apparently wasn’t necessarily supporting the pistol properly and noticed how much my wrist was flexing with the heavier recoil from the commercial loadsIt seems that this recoil operated monster can’t handle a limp wrist

Apples and oranges. Max fps is 1000 and 1400 for SASS. A 230 at 1000fps 28 times has more effect on the surface than a 200 at 1400 8 times. Basic metalurgy.

It's not a PF issue. The main reason SASS wanted an Open category, years ago, was to draw other, cowboy, shooters into WB. WB was not bringing in the revenue spent on awards etc. CAS shooters, who have now started shooting WB, didn't want to have to get a new rifle and shotgun. The cost of the guns for the amount of matches offered, didn't pencil out. So SASS had to change things up and, in so doing, eliminated the PF for all rifles to allow .38's to play. Add in the '87 and SxS shotgun, more shooters could afford to play WB. Enough WB shooters wanted the "big bore" rifles and pump shotgun, SASS decided to bring that back as "Classic". Kinda funny, if the "powers that were" had just allowed an "open" category, none of this would have ever happened. Rifle PF is only in Classic. As far as clubs using rifle PF as a reason to not shoot WB, I say BS. 150pf for pistol is more damaging to a target, because of 28+ rounds vs 7-10, it's just a reason they want to complain.

I cleaned & lubed, and polished the feed ramp of my Taurus PT1911 and loaded up another 24 rounds with an added 1/4 turn of crimp and I had zero problems! 3.7 grns of TiteGroup under my Home cast/PC’d MP mould 227gr RNFP NLG .452 sized bullets with WRE LP primers. 740fps, 168PF, STD Dev 11.4 MAXXTECH 230grn FMJ 769fps, 176PF, std dev 25.0 I’ll take the Ruger SR1911 out next time now that the FEDEX guy showed up…. (Note I ordered 2! 🤪)

Not arguing with you. I am just stating what I have observed in the past and cautioning about driving clubs and people away. I am glad that Misty saw the wisdom in making changes to bring in more shooters. I have spent time talking with shooters and encouraging them to come back and give WB another try. The old regime did their best to alienate shooters that had been shooting WB for years before they took over and changed the rules to suit them and their needs. Please try to understand that it is the disaffected CAS shooters that will grow the ranks of WB shooters. I believe in what Misty and CC are doing so strongly that I became certified to teach WB. I want this game to thrive, but harping on how the new game is not good is not the way to help anyone.

Looked up the applicable rule in the handbook. Page 13 under 1911 Pistol Modern Category Modifications good luck, GJ

All it takes is one SASS Sanctioned Match to start it and watch it snowball.

That is not a rib, it's a sight base. That older style of adjustable sight needs a long slot to mount the front part of the sight. Besides, factory (OEM) full ribs have been allowed if they are part of the manufacturing process, not an add-on. Like on some Gold Cups. good luck, GJ

You ever wonder why you were never asked to “help write the rules”? You ever notice that you have to edit 95% of your posts because they’re wrong to begin with?

A new 1911 has traditionally needed about 200 factory power FMJ rounds through it to break it in. Loosen up the action, wear in the extractor, etc. The Taurus? Would not HURT to run some through it, too. Fire 50 or so, clean the gun. Repeat. Look for any failures of any sort. If a 1911 is hiccuping on factory FMJ, it for sure has problems that can get in the way of running lighter power lead bullet ammo. Report back how the break ins go. There COULD be a function problem with both guns, but very unlikely. Unlikely either will malfunction with FMJ, but the object is to loosen the gun up so testing with lighter lead bullet ammo tells no lies. So, loosen the guns up before you seriously start looking for why the reloaded ammo does not run the guns well. The ammo you have loaded at this point looks reasonable. Nose is a little flat-ish compared to FMJ ammo. That should not cause a failure to feed the last 1/8" into chamber though. Powder coating CAN cause some chambering problems. Have the bullets been run through a sizer die AFTER being powder coated? I have seen some coatings so thick or so non-slick that they cause a failure to feed, but mostly by sticking the nose to the feed ramp and depositing powder coat color there. good luck, GJ

The disconnector is there for more than that. It prevents it from firing out of battery and from going full auto.

Can’t make up rifle or pistol…

Ok Monday morning, time to kick this horse. Boy y’all are making this way harder then it needs to be, or I’m dumber then my wife say’s I am. I’m not wanting/trying to stir anything up. But I have problems/issue’s with some interpretation’s/comments and just want to be able to make the correct call, and have proof in what is written in the book. As we all know a SxS shotgun does have an action, and therefore can be cycled.. It’s called a Break action or Break-open action. Heck all firearms have an action and must be cycled, if you ever want to shoot another round. The way I’m reading this post, it started out about the penalty for an empty left in the SxS gun. Then it appears to have moved to whether you can cycle the action on a SxS. We can all agree that the SHB state’s, “There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun. It will be cocked.” From reading the above statement, there is no penalty for an empty hull left in a shotgun. If it is open or been cycled. It’s an either OR scenario, not an And scenario. So did shooter open the SxS? If yes, no call. Was the gun cycled? If the SxS is open, it had to have been cycled, if the hammers were cocked. So another yes. No penalty for empty hull in a SxS. In the definition for “Action Cycled” where does it state “it only applies to lever and pump action long guns”? Just because that phrase is in parentheses does not make it absolute. The definition of the phrase Action Cycled is “opening the action far enough to cock the hammer” is a lot more absolute. So, the way I read it, a SxS can have it’s action cycled. So onto the last issue. Since some folks have stated that the SxS cannot have the action cycled. Either due to interpretation of the glossary or that SxS do not have an action. Anytime an individual uses a SxS in WB, will they be awarded a MSV each stage? As they cannot cycle the action of a long gun, either do to not having an action or by use of the glossary? It’s the first bullet in the MSV list in the SHB. Also FYI on the comment “addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go”. The term’s Action Closed/Open were added in the June 2014 v 7.0 SHB. There was no Action Cycled at this time. In January 2019 v12.2 SHB is when the Action Cycled, with the current verbiage was added. But since the initial addition in 2014 these terms have always had the “(lever and pump action long guns)” after the term. Unless something officially is published for this scenario, if I’m TO’ing and a empty hull is left in an open SxS (as long as you cycle the action). You will get a no call from me. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. And there sure is a lot of doubt/misconceptions in this post. Y’all have a great day. Got my flame suit on

Joe, Chased all those rabbits and then some more. My statement still stands. JFN

Griff, At the risk of "justifying their existence" I will answer your question. The main reason I like SP brass is it is much easier to load, specifically to prime than LP brass. I seem to have zero problems with high primers and primers that are difficult to seat. Second, I find that SP loads are more consistent in velocity, a narrower spread from high to low. Third, I can buy once fired SP brass way cheaper. Fourth, SP brass has a heavier web. When you cut one in half, the web and sidewall at the base are thicker like a 45 GAP or a Starline +P. Which should make it stronger in unsupported areas. LP brass runs 78-79 pieces a pound while SP brass runs 72 pieces a pound. As a side note, I have found that my 45 ACP '73 rifle needs nearly new LP brass to run well and fire every time. But, use any SP brass and problems go a way. I have a 5 gallon bucket full (5000+ pieces) that is half way through its 10th reload. I try not to take it to the local matches unless I am out of LP loads. That is my practice brass. If I have to use it (like last month) I warn every one to check their brass carefully, because I know a lot of shooters don't like it. JFN