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Well, it is called Wild Bunch ACTION SHOOTING! If I want entertainment, I’ll turn on the movie and watch it. For me the fun is in the challenge. Figuring out how I can shoot a stage to the best of my abilities. What can I do to better myself. I’ve said for years that WBAS isn’t for everyone. Neither is benchrest shooting, NASCAR racing or brain surgery.

Dang, sounds like a great match. I almost wish I had shot it. Oh well.

I am watching the evolution of Wild Bunch with a great deal of interest, as I enjoy it as much (and maybe more than...!) Cowboy Action Shooting. Evolution does not reward that which is best; it rewards that which is best suited to survive, given a certain set of conditions at the time. I was intrigued by the match; the abrupt changes made to WB were undertaken to increase the interest in the game, and, given the modestly robust turnout, with a host of new attendees, may have worked. But I feel like the match itself ran contrary to that ethos. I shot it, and did reasonably well. But, this is the entertainment business, and, listening to shooters who attended, I heard a few things which stuck with me. 1.) "I was never having any fun. I was working the whole time." 2.) "It was humbling; perhaps even humiliating, to have one shooter clean the match." 3.) "When the Super Bowl comes around, they don't move the goalposts back another 20 yards." I'm not sure what the game plan is, but I didn't think it was a great match. I respect all the work that went into it, and the workers who made it so. Also, I will shoot whatever you put in front of me. But the Fast Guys (and Gals!) will still win, and match organizers might do well to consider the experience they are offering for the 80% who want to shoot safely and just have a good time. Cheers, FJT

Just wanted to close the loop here. THANK YOU to everyone that directed me the @Boggus Deal firing pin solution! Got mine in the mail today and 10 min later was out test firing it. What a great solution! I'm all set now and the M12 is much smoother. NOTE: I did leave the bolt lock/retaining lever installed as I really don't notice it interfering with the action at lease on my M12. Ready for my next WB Match! Totes

There were a lot of SDQ. Too many of the adjacent stages had targets painted opposite, in ex. one stage the red was a multi hit and black targets were single hits. The next stage the targets were painted in the opposite way and added to confusion. The kill em all stage, was challenging for the shooters and TO alike since there were only 7 targets to a position and you could not shoot targets at the next position. This lead to lots of clearing guns for movement and SDQ. Every stage was rifle not last, which was found to be needed based on the prior year's speed rifle sidematch with 38s. We need to get back to a 150PF, so we can keep the game playable as you want. First five stages offered a little more flexibility in how the stages were shot vs the last five.

There was an, uploading, computer glitch. Scores should be posted on EOT site tonight. Match was challenging. Only 1 clean match, Holy Terror. Lots of movement, some small, dueling tree, targets. Think all had an interesting time. I imagine, next week, will have more reports as folks come home.

I have a couple custom 1911's I really like to shoot in Modern, but they take more time/care in making the ammo they like. I really enjoy shooting them, so I take the extra steps to ensure the ammo is 100% what they like. Before those, my wife and I both shot Colts. Right out to the box, they would feed dang near anything. A little tuning and they were super reliable and not the least bit picky about ammo. As a TO for WB, you see a lot of shooters struggle with ammo issues, mag issues and gun issues. Whatever you decide on, I recommend you have someone go through it if you're not knowledgeable in the platform and tune to your ammo/mags. A well tuned 1911 with the right mags and ammo is a blast to shoot fast. But any of those 3 that are not 'right' can be so frustrating, you'll want to give up on WB. Totes

Kingsnake has done both my 1911's with these. They're great

Mine run 15 recoil, 19 main. You can easily tell if you're sprung correctly. Fire a couple mags of your match ammo from one spot. Look for the center of the pattern of ejected cases. Step that off from your shooting position. If closer than 5 feet, you are sprung stronger than needed. (results in harder slide pull than needed, and can get to where you get a failure to eject) If pattern is more than 10 feet away, you are too lightly sprung (can batter the frame and slide). And the recoil and main springs usually "balance with each other" best with the recoil being about 3-4 pounds lighter than the main. The mainspring bore in the grip housing often needs honing to remove the roughness from factory machining. good luck, GJ

FJT had some good comments in the WB-EOT thread. I always expected that State level and above, certainly National or EOT matches to be challenging. In the past, the ones that I have competed in, they had their challenges, some more than others. After most "Big" Wild Bunch matches, I am mentally fatigued. I, and I have heard others say, that Wild Bunch is more fatiguing and difficult that Cowboy Action, and that the latter seem easier after a Wild Bunch match. More targets, more difficult targets, more control needed for the firearms due to the Power factor, more brass to retrieve, and more movement on tough stages have made it more challenging. Then you add in more equipment/ammo failures and often more penalties to add to the situation. Challenges abound. Perhaps for some, these aspects are too daunting; some want to be entertained with less of the above. It will be interesting to see how having a challenging shooting sport can mesh with having an entertaining shooting sport.

They absolutely are slower with the lighter bullet. Having spent way more time and money testing it, the 230 at 700-725 fps is the way to go. Anyone want my leftover 250 gr bullets I was trying to see if they were worth it….

Yes they were Boggus. But that still falls to the shooter. It was more challenging but moving with a round in the chamber has been a DQ from the beginning. There were also many 170 violations. I’d like to see the official stats on the cause of DQs

But with the goal to get the targets so close to bump them with the muzzle, that power factor would be too dangerous. Remember, this is about “entertainment”, not shooting skills. People want a clean match so instead of learning to shoot better, that’s make the targets so big and so close, you have to try to miss them.

I work in a gun store and see all sorts of 1911s come in all the time. There are a half dozen 1911s here at my house right now, ranging from a 1917 Colt to a S&W Scandium Bobtail Commander, so I am familiar with these beasties. So here is a brief break down of things to consider using the WB Shooters Handbook: 12 1911 PISTOL A full-size single stack 1911 semi-auto pistol is used in Wild Bunch Action Shooting. - Must be .45 ACP caliber - The term “1911 pistol” herein refers to the 1911A1 model as well as its clones. - No more than one main match pistol may be carried to the firing line. 1911 Pistol – Modern & Traditional Category The Modern and Traditional shooting categories carry a number of the same parameters when it comes to the 1911 Pistol. First, we will list the common parameters for both categories, then in the subsequent sections we will address the parameters specific to each of the categories individually. Common Parameters - Barrel length must be five inches. - No barrel porting or compensators or other recoil reducing devices are allowed. - Barrel with standard barrel bushing. No Bull barrels are allowed. - Magazine wells may be beveled, but may not be oversized, extended, or flared. - Stainless steel full size 1911 pistols are permitted. - Aluminum frame full size 1911 pistols are permitted. - Wrap around grips that cover a portion of the front strap are illegal. - No target style or thumb rests are allowed. - A groove can be cut in the grip to facilitate the shooter reaching the magazine release, but no material may extend beyond the original profile of the grip. Grips that are thinner at one end or the other but have a straight taper are allowed. - Magazines must be standard length and may be loaded with up to seven rounds. - Overloaded rounds that are fired are penalized as “illegally acquired” ammunition. - A base pad may be added to the magazine if it meets the following requirements: it must be made from natural leather material only. It must be no larger than the contour of the base of the magazine. The total thickness of the pad may not extend more than ¼” beyond the original base plate. - Empty magazines may not weigh more than three ounces. - Flat, wedge, or arched mainspring housings are permitted. The mainspring housing may be serrated or checkered. - Lanyard loop is optional. - Internal accurizing and action tuning is allowed. - Thumb and grip safeties must function correctly. 1911 Pistol – Traditional Category Modifications The Wild Bunch Traditional Category has specific parameters that must be adhered to, in addition to the rules Traditional shares with the Modern Category. The frame and slide must conform to the “military style” 1911 or 1911Al configuration (e.g., no light rails, enlarged dust covers, and so forth). The finish on traditional pistols varies from polished blue to very matted Parkerizing. All these finishes are legal. Also allowed are any dull color such as OD green, flat dark earth, desert tan, etc. No bright color such as red, yellow, orange, or white is allowed. 13 Pistols may also be plated, color case finished or painted. When checkering, matting, or stippling is mentioned, it means actually cutting a pattern in the frame or slide. Note: “Standard” in all cases means Standard Military Specs. - Unloaded pistol weight may not exceed 40 ounces with an empty magazine inserted - Only non-adjustable “military style” simple blade rear and front sights allowed. The 10-8 National Match and the Harrison Design 003 are approved rear sights. - Front sights may be dovetailed, pinned, or staked. - Sights may be the color of the slide or any combination of the slide color, including but not limited to blue, black, or natural stainless (natural colored) steel. The back of a colored front sight may be polished to a natural steel color. - Only rear slide checkering or serrations. No front slide checkering or serrations are allowed. - Only standard grip safeties are allowed. No beavertail style grip safeties. - Standard thumb safety only- it may not be extended. - Standard slide release only – it may not be extended. - Standard recoil spring guide only. No full-length guide rods allowed. - Short or long solid triggers are permitted. No flat or lightweight match triggers are allowed. - Lowered and flared ejection port is allowed. - Checkered front strap or trigger guard is not allowed. - Standard spur type hammer only. - Standard length magazine release only- it may not be extended or oversized. 1911 Pistol – Modern Category Modifications The Wild Bunch Modern Category has specific parameters that must be adhered to, in addition to the rules the Modern category shares with the Traditional Category. Pistol finishes vary widely. Bluing, plating, polishing, painting, etc. are all legal. - Dust cover light rails are legal. - Unloaded pistol weight may not exceed 42 ounces with an empty magazine inserted. - Adjustable or non-adjustable rear sights and blade type front sights are allowed. - Sights may not be optical or fiber optic. Laser sights are not allowed. Sights may be painted or have colored dots or inserts. - Front and rear slide checkering or serrations allowed. - No external “rib” allowed on top of slide. This means no external rib such as a BoMar may be attached to the top of the slide by screws, welding, or any other means. - The top of the slide may be flattened, serrated, and/or matted to reduce glare. - Original Colt Gold Cup ribs are legal. Ribs machined as part of the slide by the manufacturer, such as the Colt Gold Cup rib are approved. - Extended beavertail grip safeties are allowed. - Extended magazine releases are allowed. - Thumb safeties may be extended and be ambidextrous. - Slide release may be extended. - Full-length recoil spring guide rod allowed. - Match trigger allowed. 14 - Lightweight competition hammer is allowed. - Checkered front strap and trigger guard allowed. This means any type of checkering, stippling, and/or serrations are legal. - Finger grooves on the front strap are illegal. - External extractor allowed.

Simple answer is - yes, a 38 Spl rifle will be legal, especially since you already have it. And - Yes, current PF minimum is 60 for Rifle. If you need to access the handbook - it's at: SASS Rule Handbooks page Welcome to WB! GJ

Number your mags so you can identify any problem mags. +1 on case gauge. +1 on Bulge Buster for rounds that do not fit case gauge. +1 on knowing how to clear malfunctions. Be safe and have fun.

Those last 2 comments sound like they came from people that have never shot a true WB match. Makes me think that their expectations were for a SASS match shot with a 1911 and not an action match that required people to actually use their front sight. I do wonder about the comment "I was working all the time". Were the posses small? Were shooters not pulling their weight by failing to step up and do posse chores?

It is obvious that Wild bunch is evolving as a shooting sport. I suspect we will never find the perfect target arrangement, target distance or stage design as we all have our likes and dislikes. I have shot several different matches with targets at Far distance and some matches where I might scrape my front sight on the target it is so close. This year EOT was a challenge but nothing wrong with that we all shot the same course of fire . Our biggest goal should always be safety. Some stages seem to test the shooters on not moving with the loaded firearm. I think that we need to examine those stage designs and make improvements to help the shooter. that being said designing the stages for anY match let alone EOT is a major chore and I truly appreciate those who take on the task.

Most of the SDQs were moving with a loaded gun on the all knock down stage.

I thought the stages were fine. Some challenging targets but not over the top for a WB match. I don’t think you can blame 170 violations on the stage writer. That is on the shooter

Weather and illnesses has kept me from shooting a WB match since November 16th last year. I am planning on breaking the drought tomorrow with the Oak Ridge Outlaws!

Here is some more info: Cimarron's 1911 is a 1911 model, available in Blue and Nickel. It is blessed with the nubbin sights, and is a gorgeously finished pistol. MSRP is $635 and up. Taylor's is another 1911 model with a high polish Blue or Nickel finish and again the nubbin sights. MSRP is $729 in blue. Iver Johnson's 1911A1 with better sights and has a good reputation, but I haven't handled one of these myself. MSRP is $900+ Fusion Firearms has a 1911A1 with an interesting "semi-improved" set of sights, somewhere between nubs and taller sights as on the Colt 1911A1. I have built guns on Fusion frames and their stuff is very good. MSRP starts at $750. The Charles Daly is a 1911 style frame with nub sights and the stuff carrying their name seems to be well made. MSRP starts at $604 And the Auto-Ordnance and Thompson branded guns are made on the same line, so I am putting them together. They are a 1911A1 pattern with nubbin sights and all sorts of finishes available. Well finished and made over the years. MSRP starts at $750 and goes up from there. If you buy a used 1911 or A1, I would suggest in the strongest way possible to replace all the springs. Detail stripping is not difficult and Wolff makes a spring pack that is very reasonably priced, and is very cheap insurance to make your 1911 run well.

Okay, starting with the Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 1911. This is a 1911A1 available in stainless or blued. The sights are larger than the traditional JMB nubs and have 3 dots. A dab of paint or a Sharpie will black the sights out, making this legal. Finish and machining are first class and It comes with an excellent trigger and comes with one 7 round magazine with a MSRP of $725. Next up is the Tisas 1911 also called Zig, again 1911A1 models this time with a couple of options. If you have youthful eyes, there is one with the JMB sight nubs and the "US Army" model is so close to the original Colt that the CMP is selling them. Their Service PB 45 comes with a ceracoated slide, better sights and a flat mainspring housing. I have one of the basic ones and can say the trigger is decent and the machining inside is properly done where it needs to be done. The exteriors are a heavy matte eggshell bead blast. Comes with one magazine and is made in Turkey. MSRPs are from $429 to 449. Rock Island Armory makes a solid parkerized 1911A1 and one in Nickel. These have JMB style nub sights and come with two 8 round magazines. Early ones had magazine problems but the current guns come with Act-Mags, which are very good mags. Much like the Tisas' guns, interior work is very good, while the base gun exteriors are even and matte. MSRP on the Parkerized gun is $499 while the Nickel one goes for $799. If you find a used American Tactical 1911, they are very good running guns, but it seems ATI is not listing them anymore. And Daddy of the 1911s Colt. Since CZ's acquisition of Colt their quality is spotless. Their new guns come in Matte, High Polish Blue and Stainless. The sights are excellent, clear and very easy to pick up. All finishing and machine work is excellent with very good Series 70 triggers. Comes with one 8 round magazine. Most have flat MSHs and MSRP runs from $899 to $1700. Sadly Ruger, S&W and Sig do not offer Traditional style guns.

15 recoil. 17 main.

So I'm new just starting and trying to get into wild bunch I have already made up the ammo for the 1911. I was wondering if I can use a 38 rifle or if I need to use a 44 or a 45. Second question the power factor for wild bunch rifles is 60 right. Edit thank you in advance.

Howdy, Dave; I am pretty sure they did believe that they were shooting a true WB match. It may not have been to their taste. That's a subjective evaluation, to be sure. They had only shot a few matches prior to this and wanted to see if they would enjoy it as much as their local matches, on the Big Stage. "I was working all the time" was a reference to the amount of concentration and effort that the match required. Once again, tastes may vary, but they didn't feel there were any stages which they could relax a bit and run their gun as easily as they wanted. Hope that provides a bit of clarification. Cheers, FJT

Thank you, sir. Got tired of breaking pins and figured there had to be a better way. Best, Boggus

Folks, I just finished a new batch of firing pins. I have plenty available. Along with new hammer springs. If you have ordered any from me recently, they are already on the way or will be Monday. Thanks!

Reliable addition to the stock Winchester model 12. Happy with mine!

Model 25 is not legal (currently). If you can run a "short mag tube" shotgun with some single-loading required, go for it. You will likely be slow on a 6 shell stage. good luck, GJ

Would also be interesting to know how many first time or nearly first time WB shooters there were in attendance. And how many of the SDQs were earned by first time or nearly first time WB shooters. No matter how many SASS matches a person has under their belt it doesn't really prepare a shooter for full on WB. Neither does shooting a SASS match with a 1911 as those matches are usually lacking in the action department. I am always amazed at how many first time or nearly first time SASS shooters attend state and above matches. I get this is an entertainment business but I sure hope WB doesn't get dumbed down to the point where it is SASS with a 1911 because of how EOT unfolded..

That's kinda what I was thinking without saying it. I would support raising the PF for rifles to 150 and the handguns to 175-180.

You can dry fire with mine until you wear yourself out and it won’t break. A new batch should be in my hands in the next few days.

Hmmm, 20% of the shooters were dangerous enough to earn a SDQ or two? Seems to say there needs to be MUCH better introduction of new shooters to the safety precepts common to all kinds of action shooting, but especially with the 1911. None of our SDQ penalties are for a trivial safety malfunction by shooter, except for shooting out of category. good luck, GJ

I thought it was a great match. Challenging stages are what set WB apart from Cowboy. For the record, I've missed more in 8 stages of Cowboy so far, than I did in 10 stages of WB!

Exactly!

Well, there were 33 stage DQs. With two people getting two stage DQs.

Regardless of how well tuned your 1911 is or how well you reload your ammo, knowing how to safely and quickly clear a jam is not something to be overlooked. Things happen and I've seen far too many newer shooters struggle with what to do when it happens. Going to slide lock, manually pulling mag from the mag well, clearing a FTF safely and indetifying what can't quickly be fixed should be learned/practiced. When things decide to go wrong, it can really eat up time fixing it. Totes

Best advice I was given is to have mags that work every time without fail. Second was to use a loaded round gage and check every round you will use in a match. Any round that doesn't drop fully into the gage goes into the practice bin. Also check that the primers are fully seated.

You’ve got some good advice here and some poor advice. I’m going to against the grain with a couple things, though. You’ll hear people say “front sight”! Forget it! Your mind should know now how to line up the sights on target. MUCH more important is proper trigger manipulation. You can spend all day lining up the sights perfectly but when you jerk the trigger all that is moot. Dry fire practice and slow fire target practice will help. But everyone flinches to some degree at some point. Controlling it is the key. That’s the only place dummy rounds are handy loaded in the mag. It will show you your flinch. Also, forget “muscle memory”. It’s a fallacy. Your brain tells every muscle what to do, when to do it and how much to do it. Don’t pay attention to where the empty mag falls. Too many people waste too much time making sure they land on the table or carpet. All you want is it out of the gun. As for malfunctions, properly tuned guns with quality ammo and proper mags mitigate malfunctions to practically nil. Also, no need to go to the line with a “Barney” mag. That will be the mag you grab when you need a full mag.

Practice, practice,practice and then also practice for the worst. Be able to clear jams and such safely and quickly. Test all your magazines to be sure they feed and release freely. Then practice, practice, practice some more. Get someone else to load your magazines with a snap cap (dud round) in one of them somewhere. It will help you practice clearing your pistol and using your "barney".

Don't look for your mags. You don't need to pull them in a specific order. Just drop your hand and grab what you touch. Keep the pistol up when you change mags, don't lower, insert, raise, takes too much time and you have to regain the target. You don't need to hammer the bottom of the mag into the pistol, just put it in right the first time. Whirlwind Wendy taught me all this.

More time is wasted on mag changes than anything else in WBAS. Don't take the gun too far down from the line of sight and practise with your eyes CLOSED. You have to feel the change to get it right. Watch shooters, most have the gun in a lowered position and canted when changing magazines. Both are time wasters. Many change the position from mag change to mag change, they don't know where they have the gun and have to look for it. GOOD LUCK.

As stated above, if you buckle in the rear, it leaves the front open for business; mag pouches/shotshells/rifle reloads...some more robust gentlemen or ladies may not require utilizing all the available real estate, and choose to do otherwise. But, my 32 inch waist (34 after Thanksgiving dinner) is hard pressed to find a location for these necessities, otherwise. Cheers! FJT

I know who two of those shooters are just by their midsection shots! I wear a buscadero holster for cowboy so I also went with one for WB. I have long arms and no waist so it puts the grip a little lower for me. I carry 6 mags and a small slide with two rifle reloads and two shotshells. If I need more than 8 shotgun I can always stage them.

My take on your plans so far - Buy a belt suitable for your holster with NO loops sewn into the belt. Then you can experiment with buckling in front, or buckle spun to the back. A cartridge holder for at least 2 rifle reloads and at MOST 4 shotgun shells works just fine, because you can almost always start with 6 shotshells in your gun (unless you plan to shoot a side-by-side, then I'd suggest you immediately get a shotgun belt holding 10 shells (paired together) as well as the gun belt). And you might as well get 3 paired 1911 mag holders, total of 6 mags. Lots of matches shoot more than 28 pistol rounds on a stage, and you need a spare mag in case of fumble, misfeed, jam, etc. All your magazines then will come to hand the same way (height, angle). Some folks like wearing huge award buckles on their belt, and they are almost always in the back, for the AUDIENCE to see. And when worn in front they take over valuable "belly space" that is better used by ammo of some kind! Get a stout belt made for holster carry. Light belts will move around, break, sag, and holsters and holders need to stay put, too. Best results usually come from using same maker for belt and holsters and holders. good luck, garrisonjoe