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Rules written at different times by different persons? Perhaps influenced by their "home range" safety rules that they are familiar with? And perhaps because shot size is hardly important to shooting 10 yard steel knockdown targets. I have seen several WB shooters not be handicapped at all shooting #9 shot. And I shoot #8 all the time. As to exactly WHY in any of the SASS rules, perhaps developed 25 years ago and modified since then, it is almost impossible for most of us to have a real clue. But it's not like we really NEED to know WHY to play the game. Learn the rules, follow the rules - for the game you are playing. But, if you think the two rules need to be "harmonized" (made the same), suggest that to your local Territorial Governor and see if they want to "pick that hill to die on." good luck, GJ

Without any hesitation stage 8. Everyone had the opportunity to shoot blazing fast and still be CLEAN. No need for spotters either the target is down or not. Stage 5 could have been more interesting if the shotgun used all three positions. *Comment* As a PM, fun stages for shooters become stressful stages for TO, spotters and PM. "Fun" for me, happens when the stage has elements to consider.

The question should be, Why didn't the old regime start an Open category like requested? The whole issue whould have been avoided.

For years, a lot of us offered ideas. They were shot down by people who never shot Wild Bunch and had not then, and still have, no clue. I will not stop criticizing the current status because when adults ran the organization it grew. Now, not so much… If it were growing as some claim, why were the “Classic” categories created?

Both pistols are ok. The Queen of Bling uses the SR1911 for both Main Match and a second for backup; WBSHB Pg 18 "Shotgun barrels may have internal choke tubes installed provided they do not extend beyond the muzzle." WBSHB Pg 19 "Front sights may be bead or simple post types. - Mid-barrel sights are allowed and must be the same color as the front sight. - Front sights may be blue, black, steel, ivory, faux ivory, brass, gold, pewter, copper, or silver." No red sights allowed, either optical or stationary, for shotgun.

The short throat in a 1911 barrel catches a lot of new loaders of .45 AUTO by surprise, as they load a few hundred, go to the range, and find every one of the loads fails to go the last 1/8" into battery. Some keys to loading so they will feed well in your gun: 1 - the point on the nose where the upper end of the cylindrical section of the bullet (the shank) STARTS to narrow down (round over) to the nose ogive is the place where the case mouth should be placed during seating. If you crimp down on the shank, the nose will jam into the short throat of the barrel and round will not go fully into chamber. If you crimp out on the ogive of the bullet, you will have collapsed bullets during hard feeding. Remember that there is NO standard nose length on cast .45 AUTO bullets, because there have been hundreds of molds made to cast these slugs over the years. Regardless of what a manual may state. So, don't load to the published OAL, load to put the case mouth at the start of the ogive turn-in. 2 - apply a taper crimp that just returns the case mouth to 0.472", measured with a caliper. You are only straightening out the case from where you expanded the mouth, and just barely catching the surface of the bullet with the inside edge of the case mouth. Looking down from on top of loaded rounds, you should still see a bright ring of brass all the way around the bullet. The case mouth is the headspace location, so if you "bury" the brass case wall all the way into the bullet during crimping, the headspace mechanism is removed and rounds can chamber too deep to fire. 3 - get a loaded round checking gauge, and check EACH cartridge to make sure it chambers perfectly. Several companies make them, including Dillon and Wilson (the trimmer guys, not the gun guys, unless Bill Wilson just happens to be making them now, too). Yes, you can take the barrel out of your 1911 and drop rounds into the chamber, but it will "get old" breaking down your pistol every time you load a batch of ammo. 4 - good on you for bulge busting your "range" cases. But if a round fails the chamber check from step 3, the first thing to try is to bulge-bust that LOADED round. I've busted thousands of loaded rounds and never had a discharge. Second thing to do if you fail chamber-check is to look at the mouth of the case and find any lead finger-nails that "squirted out" during crimping. Depending upon the quality of bullet and your ability to squarely seat a bullet, you may or may not find a sliver of lead needing to be trimmed off the round. Those 2 corrections will almost always get the round to pass chamber-checking. 5 - chrono check and calculate Power Factor yourself. Not every 1911 will shoot a load from the manual at the velocity that the book shows! Sounds like you are well on the way to making great ammo. good luck, GJ

Again, two separate occurrences. 1 Action must be cycled when discarded for the FINAL time. 2. Action not required to be cycled WHEN FOR FURTHER USE.

You guys are a bad influence. I want to shoot classic now. Someone needs to sell me another 73.

Because there is none. It's only a penalty if there is a live round in the chamber SDQ If there is an expended in the chamber, and the shotgun is staged closed, it's a P for not cycling the action.

Wayne Novak (Novak sights) has made a gold front for at least 10 years.

I fully support....communication and openness!!!!

You can buy a 1911 for $300 these days, not sure I have seen a $1000 1911 in anyone's holster at a WB match. My wild bunch gun definitely wasn't $1000, not now nor 22 years ago when I bought it. Pump shotguns are under $500. There are M12s on Gunbroker for $3-400 all the time. Rifle there's a lot of cheaper options, but yeah, a 73 costs more than a thousand bucks. Gen Z put Creed back on the charts 30 years later. Dozens of them were shooting at the match I was at last weekend, which has a similar cost of entry. They're showing up and doing very well. A friend of mine won the USPSA Production Nationals in 2016, I believe he was 18 years old at the time. He isn't quite Gen Z, but he was shooting at 12. Interesting how the goal post moved after I pointed out that your response is not credible. Nobody has marketed it to them, and it's not "cool," so they're not doing it. They aren't having kids, either, the birthrate among them is a fraction of what it was for our generations. I don't know how Creed is getting people who weren't even born when the records came out to come to their concerts, but their concerts are full of people who weren't born when I first heard the songs, which I didn't think were particularly remarkable even then. The youth are the future of everything. If we don't market to them, we're done. Make it "cool" and they'll show up. I shot my first match a few weeks after my 21st birthday when I became old enough to buy a handgun. There's no reason we can't reel them in. I shot more when I was in my 20s than I do now, and I actively try to find the time now compared to then when I just showed up. If PRS, USPSA, NRL22, IPSC, IDPA, ATA, NSSA, and so on can do it, we can, too.

Like Joe, I got rid of questionable brass years ago. With Wild Bunch loads, you should never have to worry about loose primer pockets. You’ll crush brass or lose it before primer pockets get loose.

I test fired some across my chrono yesterday. 45 Colt with a 180gr bullet loaded with 5.0grs of Titegroup. Produced an average of 836fps. If you do the math this setup results in a 150.48 power factor. I will end up increasing the powder charge a little bit.

Thanks Joe. I’m hoping to use my Lee combination seat/taper crimp die so I can use my bullet feeder. I’ll futz with it some more this weekend.

My load….. my projectile..4520-.4525” 225-229grn cast, PC’d. two groups of dummy rounds. Both groups plunk and manually feed Group A OAL is 1.168” ; 0.473” case mouth. Looks like maybe too much crimp? or Group B OAL 1.178 case-mouth 0.4755 Thoughts?

Not really. Can't think of anything I need.

Your Ruger should feed either of those bullets with no problem, they both have a nice shape to them. Good magazines are a must for any 1911, the Ruger factory ones are good, MecGars, Wilson's [the best but expensive] . KimPro mags are good but avoid the basic Kimber ones.

Thanks Joe, this is great info!

It seems to me that, apart from deliberately choosing to wear a hair shirt, or perhaps as an exercise in willy-waving, if there is no reward/penalty for shooting Classic v. Modern, that Classic shooters are needlessly handicapping themselves with the use of larger bore rifles. I know that I am faster with a .38 than a .45 rifle. While that may be just me, in the consideration for the overall finish, I will have to consider that, moving forward. Great match, and a lot of fun! Cheers, FJT

I looked at the overall and the top cowboys and top cowboys. 8 classic shooters in the top 20 for men and 11 in the top 20 for the ladies. That doesn't appear to have made much difference, but it remains to be seen with more data.

But no one wants to shoot that. I mean, after a year of planning to shoot sub caliber guns and having the classic rules announced less than two months before, still a third more shot Classic. Maybe that’s what people want…

I've got pink on the front and lime green on the rear. 😄

There is no penalty for "overloading" any long gun. The penalty occurs when something is done with the "overloaded" rounds, i.e. Shot downrange (P), used to complete a sequence after ejecting a round (P+M), left in chamber of gun, action open or closed (SDQ) Other penalties are: Expended round left in chamber and action NOT cycled (MSV) The only Possible penalty for loading 4 when the instructions called for 2 is 1: P for not following stage instructions 2: Get someone who knows the rules to write the stages.

WBSHB Pg 14 "Sights may not be optical or fiber optic. Laser sights are not allowed. Sights may be painted or have colored dots or inserts." No restriction on colors for 1911 sights in Modern.

Thanks Joe, hope you are doing well

Not an orange fiber optic sight that "glows" in sunlight. But, sights can be painted or a colored insert or dot (non-fiber) can be applied. The rule: But of course, different rules for Traditional guns: good luck, GJ

My favorite is a 1/8” gold bead. I’m not sure who is producing them at the moment. I’m working on it but the price of labor and gold…

It is great what happens when the rank and file get listened to, instead of like days of old told to "like it or leave". Many left. As soon as my shoulder replacement heals I will be shooting many more WB matches. Not having to buy new guns, and having realistic power factors allow me to shoot.

No body said "no one wanted it" the past regime said "nobody would shoot with the .38 rifle"

So, out of 164 Shooters at EOT WB: 86 shot classic 68 shot wild bunch Yeah, I see an overwhelming demand for classic, not. Or, are those 68 not "real shooters"

As part of the under 38 demographic, things that make the game interesting: Condition 1, movement with loaded chamber. WB was always cheaper to get into $600 1911 vs $1700 revolvers. Doughboy and Teddy Roosevelt got to a $500 rifle Big guns at further targets, DB and TR was much more fun than pistol cal. See 3 gun rifle distances. Targets getting bigger and closer are less interesting for WB. It was nice being able to shoot two different games (targets/speeds) between WB and cowboy. shooter's choice on gun was great, but that's fading out with the PF changes. It let the shooter attack the stage how they wanted to do so. I am glad to see the correction with recommended pistol round count.

Let's see. 1000+ bucks for a rifle, 1000+ bucks for a pistol, 1000+ bucks for a shotgun. Gen Z can't afford to get into the game. They don't have the disposable income nor time to play. They're invested in earning a living, family, stuff other than shooting. Start a tik tok string up, see how it works. Don't think you'll get many, gen z, followers but, I've been wrong before It was said, the Youth were the future of SASS. The youth won't be playing cowboy or wild bunch until they are the old.

I don't know why people keep saying "it's been tried." How? Gen Z people are on tiktok. They are not reading this (or any) forum. When they were born, the internet already existed. Before they became old enough to have an account on social media, social media exploded and they look at it for 16 hours a day. When's the last time you saw anything related to Wild Bunch on Tiktok? If we are serious about reaching Gen Z and Alpha new members, the marketing has to fit the target audience. I am far from an expert on how to do it, and they're half my age, so they're not in my social network. But until I see a critical mass of young adults who are not at a match with their parents, my response to "it's been tried" is that is nonsense. Whatever was tried didn't work because it didn't aim at the target, it just shot aimlessly out into the world. As for condition 1 and movement, it is absolutely essential. It is the change that will make this into a dynamic and exciting shooting sport instead of a game based on a hybrid between movie reenactment and target shooting. I'm sure the movement especially will come with considerable opposition, because the majority of the people shooting this game came from SASS's other game. That is how it started after all. But if we want our own identity, there is one way forward: make it athletic. It's already fast; people comment all the time about how rare it is to have a clean WB match (I'm proud to have two of them). So the next layer is get people's feet moving. Get the sights bouncing and put some long shots in there. Raise the round counts. We have a whole bay, so it's time to use it.

Dude, you keep bitching and complaining but I don't see you putting any ideas up. Stop it.

WB is not tracked by age. It's broken into age range categories. 2026 EOT WB had over 160 shooters. But, you weren't one....why?

Once again hosted by Gunpowder Creek Regulators in Lenoir, NC. Five stages with lunch included. Details will be posted on the host club’s website.

I tossed out all my .45 auto brass that had a military head stamp before 1990, and commercial head stamps with the lettering almost smashed level from recoil. Because several of the old (1960 and 1970s) brass cases were splitting upon reloading or firing. Since brass recycling gets me almost half the price of new brass back, it was not all that painful. But never have I seen a primer pocket enlarge enough to start spitting out primers. Which is what I would guess the OP is worried about. good luck, GJ

231 is an excellent choice for 9mm (even better in 9mm than .45 Auto). 4.7-4.8 grains with a Hornady 115 rn at 1.100" puts it at the upper pressure range for 9mm, so I wouldn't push it more than that. The 5.1 grain load exceeds +P numbers. At 4.7 you will be making 136 pf, which is just about perfect. Colt does not use ramped barrels for 9mm 1911s so I would stick to round nose bullet designs. My non-ramped 9mm doesn't like flat bullets at all. I have had really good luck with the Mec Gar magazines recently. Before that I was using Tripp Research magazines for a long time.

I have used TG in a lot of .45 Colt loads. I never worried much about the velocity because all my 200 grain loads easily made a power factor of 165 - close to 180. I ran 6.2 grains of TG. But I suggest you start with 5.7 grains. Your load "velocity requirement range" is kinda slow - so with the chamber diameter and even bore variances, you will need to chrono the load. It will be a sooty load and probably not seal the chamber very well. Keeping the gas blow back down to a livable level out of Uberti toggle gun was the main reason I ran about 6.2 grains - that was enough chamber pressure to seal a .45 Colt case, even if not annealed. good luck, GJ

The new SASS WBAS Shooter Handbook, Vers 17.7, dated January 2026 Page 20, "Tie down holsters are allowed"

That looks like a Novak sight cut. As long as there is no optic mounted, Novak sights are legal in Modern. Obviously, it can’t have a fiber optic either.

That's the dream

Ha!

All of this seems like good news. Maybe the next round we'll get loaded starts and movement.

SASS® Wild Bunch Action Shooting™ Effective January 1, 2026 SASS Led (Business Policy) Changes 1. Maximum pistol weight for the 1911 will be changed to 43 ounces. 2. SxS/Double shotguns must be staged open and empty. The provision to load under TO supervision will be removed, eliminating any contradiction to SASS’ firearm handling and safety covenants. 3. Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy will no longer be official WBAS Main match categories. They will be moved back to WBAS Side match status. 4. Lady & Junior WBAS categories will be protected. These categories will not be subject to minimum mandates and will be honored regardless of the number of entrants. 5. The age determination for the WBAS Senior category will be changed to 60+. 6. SASS will add Elder Statesman Wild Bunch and Grand Dame Wild Bunch as official categories- with the age determination of 70+. 7. SASS will add Classic Wild Bunch Categories. a. Classic Wild Bunch Modern b. Classic Wild Bunch Traditional *These “Classic” categories will carry the reinstated parameters for Power Factor and Firearm requirements; 12-gauge SG (Model 12 or 97), 1911 and Rifle in 40 cal. or larger, 150 PF minimum. Classic WBAS and will also be broken out into Senior and Elder Statesman/Grande Dame (with minimum entry mandates in place). 2026 Clarifications/SHB Edits 1. 1887/1901 loading procedure: At the loading table, load as many rounds as the 87/01 will hold – up to 6 in the magazine and carrier. Close the action on empty chamber, hammer must fall unimpeded. 2. Tie down holsters are legal. Appropriate verbiage will be added communicating it. 3. Dotted sights – Appropriate verbiage stating darkening dotted sights as a 1911 pistol modification in the Traditional category, is legal. 4. Shotgun gauge clarifications: Aside from the new Classic category parameters of 12-gauge, new verbiages will be added to simplify and clarify the acceptable gauge range for shotguns in WBAS. 5. The average pistol rounds of a WBAS Stage is 28 rounds.

As they say, "it is what it is, not always what one hopes for"

Now if they colored the brass, say purple, when they had small primers - that would be fine 🙂

I am officially retired from Wild Buch management BUT I can tell you for the first 10 years of real Wild Bunch this question of "Shooters Choice " never was even thought about or considered. If you had a failure to fire the 1911 for any reason, you just cleared the gun, put in another magazine and continued where you were. Everyone shooting would do as Eyesa asked. Fix the gun and proceed to avoid penalties and hopefully misses. Aparently those days are past. Very sad in my opinion.

That would make it a clean stage, yep. Drop mag at end and rack to slide stop to make sure the 1911 is open and empty. GJ