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I did not find pistol and shotgun targets at 3-5yds fun, and I don't feel the drive down from Tucson was worth it for a match like that. I still like to shoot some local matches to support the folks around here that put them on, but this mindset of bringing all the targets in that close has got to go. It's not safe, and it's not fun. No shade to Zona -- he puts on quality, well thought-out matches, but let's put the targets out further.

Maybe there were only six of us shooting, but I'll take it! First time shooting the newly acquired 1897 Winchester with no issues. All in all, it's been a pretty good week with my first ever match win and clean shoot, 10 year anniversary with my wife, and the presidential election results.

In the "early days" when we first set up Wild Bunch we followed the target mfgrs. recommendation on distances. We set pistol targets at 10-12 yds. SG targets at 12-15 yds and rifle at close to 20 yds. It was a lot of fun. Aparently what is fun has changed but the lawyers haven't.

How Close Should They Be? Hummm . . . What an interesting question. I believe the answer to be this: It depends on whom you are asking? Ask the persons who shot in the El Rey / La Reina categories at cowboy matches when they are lumped into the Modern or Traditional WB Categories at the State or higher level because there weren't five or more persons in their categories and the match director would not open up those Senior categories for whatever reason. Yup - been places where this has happened. Ask the persons who have shot stages where the scenarios are so complicated that 90% of the posse they are on received a Procedural. Ask those persons who have to struggle seeing rifle/pistol targets that are set at the back of distant berms where the front sight of the pistol is larger than the targets. And of all the places I have been shooting WB, very few clean the stages, no matter how the range is set. So am I advocating targets being set up close and personal. Not by any means. I know how I set WB targets when we had our range. Targets were 16"x"16' for squares and circles were 16" in diameter for our club. The pistol targets were set anywhere between 18' to 22'. Rifle targets at around 35', rifle/pistol targets at 25' and shotgun targets around 27'. I always used a tape measure. The Texas Stars, dueling trees, hostage/hostage taker targets were right at the 15' mark. These are just what I did and your mileage vary at your own clubs. I will make another observation . At State level Cowboy Match in the state where I live, the then President of the club made some remarks that went something like this: As he stood at the front of the audience he surveyed the trophies laid out to the front and sides of him. As he addressed the audience, he stated that statically about 10% of the audience would receive the those trophies. The other 90% of the audience were there to watch and see who were awarded those trophies. He went on to further say, those 10% of the audience receiving those trophies, would probably be in the top 10% no matter where they went. He state that he was writing stages, he struggled with who should he be writing a match for? Those top 10% who will continue to be in the top 10% no matter how challenging a match is or the 90% who will come back to support the club knowing that most will never have a chance at wining an award or ever seeing they names in the top 10% of whatever match they are attending. I believe that same challenge should be applied to any Cowboy or WB Match no matter what the level of the match is. Your audience will dictate what to write. No matter which group stages are being written for, attempt to make a challenge for everyone without writing stages that are only for the top 10%. In other words, everyone's organization is different. Do what works for you at your organization. When you travel and you don't care for the hosting clubs written stages let your pocket book do the talking. Thanks for reading - J.J. PS - Remember, all of those writing stages for any match, this is an entertainment business. Too hard, too close, too far away, too easy - well I'm sure you get the jest.

This. I would go further and suggest forcing inexperienced shooters to shoot duellist style or WEAK HAND could border on the unsafe. Certainly "unfun" for those not comfortable with it. Which sort of defeats the purpose of the game surely? No offence to the other poster, but I don't see the relevance of police type training to a recreational activity. LOL..I'm a HALO qualified military jumper but I don't expect civvie Skydivers to jump with equipment packs!😉

230 LRN over 4.0 gr WST

I installed the new Boyd's hardwood stock and it looks great! no fitting needed. I am going to keep the original one but I threw the ugly synthetic 3D printed junk in the trash. The foregrip was a breeze with the tool

DOC 12379 3.8 grains of WST may be a little light to make PF . Most use 4.0 or 4.1 to make a little room over PF in case they test with a cheap chrono and it is a bit off.

I like the idea of adding a bit of fun to the proceedings, Whitey! Series 70 Colt for Traditional. Les Baer Premiere for Modern. Seems to be working out! Cheers, FJT

I use a lot of Missouri bullets. Good stuff. Just recently ordered some bullets from Slippery Bullets. They have a 200gr .45 that is a hybrid between a 45 ACP and 45 Colt that pretty nice. Loaded some for the last WB match I shot. fed great, no issues.

Wolff most likely has to be snipped too to make 6 rounds fit. There are kits available with a replacement follower which is shorter than the Winchester (or Chinese) original. Those help, but they also replace the spring with a shorter length, IIRC. I've got 3 of the IAC 97 clones which will take 6 rounds in mag AND feed perfectly well with only a spring cut back to be 5" longer than the total magazine tube (that is, with all the guts out of the magazine, action closed, the forward end of the uncompressed spring is 5" longer than the mag tube body itself). That includes the factory follower being used. Snipping a spring is free - the 6 shot conversion last time I looked is about $40. If you make a mistake, order a new 12 gauge spring for a Rem 870. Same diameter and strength, and easily available. $7 last time I bought one. good luck, GJ

Just back from Bordertown, the Arizona State Championship, where, as an adjunct to the Fastest SASS Match In The World, they have a very popular and well attended WB sidematch. It is not formally sanctioned, so they played a bit fast and loose with the SASS WB rules, such as allowing shooters to start C&L (Condition 1), to make up missed SG targets with reloads, and Bordertown distance targets. It was fast, furious, great fun, and no one put their eye out. 'Zona designed a great match, and, if you find yourself in the area next year, I highly recommend it for something different! Cheers, FJT

Well… Having discussed this with all of the major steel target manufacturers in the country, they all say no less than ten yards for pistol targets. My suggestion is ten to fifteen yards for pistol targets.

It’s odd that every year until this year after the changes, Winter Range and EOT sold out. Had a cap and a waiting list. While cowboy attendance steadily declined. All you have to do is look at the final match results.

The combination of guns used for WB is what I like most. The 1911, lever action rifle, and the venerable Winchester model 97 shotgun "stoked" makes WB for me. Stages with no rifle or no shotgun totally misses it for me, the combination of guns and transitions is what makes it fun. A pistol only stage is just bullseye shooting, and that already exists elsewhere. There are tons of combinations that keep it interesting with 2,3,or4 magazines, exceeding four mags on a stage usually is doing the same sequence again, and again. I like combination rifle pistol sequences. The allowing 38 rifles is a great addition to WB. At this time I see no need to up the power factor. Knock down targets will cure that. Timers picking up the 38s can and is done all the time. The only firearm I have not been able to time is a suppressed .22. TO you need to get closer regardless which firearm is last to ensure you get the last shot. There is no rule saying "rifle not last" unless there is some type of obstruction (window doorway) that prevents the TO from getting a little closer to the gun, allow rifle last. Target distance and size always seems to come up in these discussions. This is totally on the range officials and what they have to work with. Remember who your shooters are! Dumping 7 on 3 big targets at close range is "meh" for me, but my wife gets a kick out of it and if you transition to 15 yard smaller targets on the same stage, you have something for everyone. WB doesn't need everything big and close, but there is nothing better for the sport than a grinning shooter coming off the line cuz he/she had fun mag dumping on an easy target.

Set and enforce a minimum target distance. Some clubs have targets at 3 to 4 feet from the muzzle. That's way too close no matter how the steel is set for WB loads. Stages should be a variety of distances, target arrangements, shooting order. Keep the movement. Stay out of the 10, 10, 4 rut that has become SASS. Encourage stages that only use two guns vice three, stages with a SG or Rifle reload. Clean WB stages shouldn't be the norm Minimum PF for rifle rounds. (125) Allow Lugers, Broomhandles, 1917s etc.

All good thoughts so far. And besides the Condition One start, movement with the pistol in any condition would be fine by me too. (Full disclosure, I also shoot IPSC! 😄) A reasonable PF for 38 Rifles for sure... 125? Its pretty standard elsewhere.. TOTALLY agree with allowing WWII rifles rechambered to other SUITABLE calibres... I think of that as an "Internal modification" LOL

You just backed up my argument. While I have never been to a Wild Bunch match that was a “precision pistol match”, they should be more challenging. Not bump the barn door sized target with your muzzle and pull the trigger. Changing the guns is not the problem. Making it cowboy with a 1911 is. If I were to go to the cowboy wire and throw a tantrum because I can’t shoot my .38s in Classic Cowboy what would happen? Everyone would go into vapors! Over a costume category… Just a costume category… Wild Bunch was a stand alone shooting sport.

Stick with the 230. If you have to make power factor, the 230 at 700 fps is quicker split times between shots than a 200 at 800 fps. Also, softer recoil.

There is a reason the target manufactures say 10 yards…

My opinion is that we should have the option to make up shot gun "misses" or hits that don't cause the shotgun targets to go down. If you don't want to make them up then you have the option not to. No one is going to force you to make up a shotgun target. It was brought up at Land Run not by me and I agreed that shotgun makeup should be allowed again. Yes again, shotgun makeups were allowed in my region when wild bunch first came out over 14+ years ago at all our local, state and regional match. Then it was changed, just like the magazines changes going to 7 instead of 5 or setting the age to a Senior category at 65. Wild bunch was also being shot as a category during the cowboy shoots at several matches in the early days back then. This was why 5 in a mag was the norm back then so people could shoot Wild Bunch during a cowboy match because there were few if any WB matches out there in the early years in my area. Some shooters like to have less misses for the match even if it takes them longer to make up the targets than it would be to take the 5 second penalty. We have all seen some bad targets out there whether bad design or bad angles depending on the shooters position or height of the shooter etc... Also those that shoot State or Regional Wild Bunch Mini matches one day then shoot the cowboy match the next day have to break the habit of the day before on whether to make up or not make up the targets the rules need to be the same to avoid confusion or potential issues for those that shoot both matches back to back. Another reason that I think that we should have the option on making up shotgun targets is that F-word it is Fun to blast away as fast as you can with 6 shots from a pump and not have to worry about getting a 5 second penalty for a miss when you have the option to reload. Let the slam fire begin. It was also brought up at Land Run by a TG not me about changing the ages of the categories to match CAS. Senior for cowboy is 60 and senior for wild bunch is 65. I have heard about a 60 year old shooting SENIOR in wild bunch because they did not know there was a difference between the two types of shoots and no one ever really checks for age at local or state matches. Eliminate the confusion and stop having 64 yr olds shoot against 18 yr olds in a category. Many people complain about oh too many categories but when your aging shooting population in CAS and Wild Bunch is over 60 there needs to be more protected categories such as Senior at 60, a protected category for 70 and 80. I am not opposed to 49er also. In 2010, when I shot my first wild bunch EOT in New Mexico the categories offered where different that what was offered at the state level in 2010 just like the shotgun makeups. https://www.wolverinerangers.org/pdf/RW2001-Present/RW2010WildBunchCAT.pdf in 2010, for example there was a 59er category used at the state wild bunch side match. In then in 2011 until 2020 there was only traditional or modern. Senior categories showed up in 2021 in our state side match. If States, Regionals, Nationals or EOT want to break it down to even 5 yr increments if they have 5+,10+ shooters in a category and award a silver senior award then I am good with that as well but it is up to the match to go beyond the protected categories. (49, 60, 70, 80) I personally like having a youth protected category for those under 16? or whatever mirrors SASS even if they shoot .22 cal 1911 and rifle. I really don't see why people complain about more people winning and also shooting against people in their own age bracket. Men's and Women's would both have the same protected classes. If the cost of awards is the complaint at the State level then maybe increase shooter fees or instead of buckles or expensive awards switch to plaques etc... I personally believe that the 3 more protected categories would increase participation. People like finishing higher in their categories and they like a shot to win their category that they might not of had under the current categories. For example, we had a 65 yr old shooting against an 85 year old in the Senior class at a State Match I was at. So instead of finishing dead last in the senior class the 85 year old would of won the 80+ class. That makes more sense to me and I think it is morally the right thing to do as I would guess the bulk of the shooters are over 50 or maybe 60 now. I am no where near 60 but why not promote and recognizing more of our senior citizens with more opportunities for awards for them. More happy people is better for growing the sport of Wild Bunch. This is just my opinion, as a wild bunch shooter of 15 years or so going from different State, Regional, National and EOT matches. As a current TG, I have already talked to those that I represent after the Land Run meeting and I would vote to allow the option of shotgun makeups if this makes the list to vote on next year. They are also on board with protecting more categories.

I am not one for creating an infinite numbers of shooting classes. Attend EOT or Land Run and see the vast number of awards but, it seems that there are more and more older shooters. I would like to see Senior class dropped to age 60 and an elder class at age 70. Keep the no make up rule on shotgun. The easiest target on a stage is the shotgun if you miss it is your loss.

Thanks CC for the details. I am excited about the future of WB. I enjoy shooting it and hope it's got a long life ahead. Totes

That would be fun for experienced shooters. Something a lot of experienced WB shooters seem to forget is not everyone is an experienced shooter and would be very uncomfortable shooting one handed, much less off hand. I would be fine, my better half would not, and I would not like to see the results of the many WB shooters who have never even attempted one handed or off hand shooting with their 1911. We often see the WB posts about how it should be "more challenging" and I agree. However you have to take into account the not so experienced shooters perspective. What is challenging to us may be too much for others and that is not good for the sport.

Ive always thought bayonets should be MANDATORY on trench guns...😄 They look so cool....

I shoot the WB monthly with the Jackson Hole Gang in NJ. It’s a 2 hr ride, sometimes longer with the NJ traffic. My pards and I shoot the Muster at Fort Misery- NY State WB championship every year. It’s a fantastic 2 day match that attracts over 100 shooters. It’s a good mix of target size like lolly pops to standard plates, movement and target distances. Takes me 3 hours to get up to Balston Spa NY. Gringo

230 gr. Desperado Cowboy bullets with either: 3.6 gr. Clays 4.3 gr. VV N320 4.1 gr. WST 4.8 Unique 5.1 HP 38 Any of these will work. A Chrono is your best friend. I also use Federal Large pistol magnum primers. Marshal Stone

It's going to take a little time. Many hate the precision pistol matches that WB turned into. Once they see the setup of the way WB will be ran at clubs, more will participate. I talked to many at Land Run this year that have never shot WB at LR before. They are already planning to shoot it next year. Time will tell. What I don't understand is how allowing .38 rifles and non-pump shotguns hurt the game. It has no impact on how purist WB shooters shoot the match, they can still use the .40+ rifles and model 12's. If they are worried about SxS shooters and .38 rifle shooters beating them, they have bigger issues they need to work on. Totes

I like both Cowboy and WB. I feel like the biggest barrier for WB is/was the lack of shotgun choices since there are no modern reproductions of model 12's and 97's. My understanding that this was changed recently to allow any SASS approved shotgun. Even with this, on a stage where you stoke 5-6 shells a double would be a huge disadvantage. I have found WB more challenging than Cowboy. Not saying that Cowboy shooters can't shoot,it's just designed for speed with very large/close targets. WB has you shooting much smaller/further targets with your handgun and you have to do mag changes and clear any malfunctions. To me, this is fun and challenging. I have known about SASS for many years and had watched videos on YouTube of people fanning mouse fart loaded revolvers with weak hand thumbs with zero recoil and it didn't appeal to me. I thought initially that they were shooting .22's. After actually doing it I have a new found appreciation for it because it is very rewarding to hear the steel ring! Having said all of this, I truly feel like the stages in Cowboy could be a bit tougher though. either smaller targets at longer distances or raise the power factor to that of factory ammo. Shooting a clean stage or match should be an accomplishment like bowling a perfect game , finishing a round of golf under par, pitching a complete game shutout and not so easy. Thankfully, we have a choice and I will continue to shoot both styles but prefer WB for the reasons I listed.

Well…. Since you asked. 99% of cowboy action dress up players can’t really shoot, they don’t like a higher round count, targets out past 3 feet or targets smaller than a barn door. Or the fact that that Wild Bunch stages aren’t choreographed like a kindergarten play.

Can be loaded with lots of powders. I get great accuracy with 5744, but it's very expensive. For 100 yard shooting, 2400 or 4227 is a good choice. Red Dot can even be put into use. For 200 yard accuracy, better to go to a powder like 4198 or 3031 or Reloder 7 - of course, those are rapidly increasing in price, too. Really depends upon what you want the muzzle velocity to be. And accuracy of each cast bullet load in a rifle tends to be specific to that rifle. Here's a great summary of military rifle cast bullet loading: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article My favorite for 30-06 with a 170 to 200 grain slug at about 1800 FPS tends to be........Reloder 7. 4227 if shooting slower loads (1400 FPS) friendly to normal steel "cowboy" targets. A copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (all cast bullet loads) or the Lyman Reloading Handbook 51st edition (this edition now has several cast bullet loads for each bullet and cartridge combination) is going to be your best reference material. good luck, GJ

I have wanted a Colt 1911 since I was a kid (when Colts were the only 1911's, now everyone makes one). I have bought 2 Springfields, 1 Remington, and 2 Ruger 1911's (one of the Rugers is in 10mm) but the only Colt I own is a new version Anaconda so I decided that my collection is incomplete without the brand that started it all!

Yes, the cap unscrews. They can be VERY tight. I use a system engineered by the Winchester service department. It helps prevent slippage of the wrench and splitting of the fore end.

As I am one of the old folks shooting traditional the current two brackets are ok with me. I would not like being the only one in my category just to win by default.

That's something to consider. Marshal Stone

Some areas and ranges in the country have the ability to offer DB/TR, however I will go out on a limb and and say most ranges we shoot at and east of the Mississippi will not allow rifle cartridges in the “berms”. The gun clubs that own the ranges have rules against it and the berms are only 20 yards deep.

I agree that not every club has the capability to have DB/TR due to range limitations, Clubs that have WB matches need to indicate in their advertising if DB/TR are allowed in the main match.

This has always baffled me. Please explain how you can shoot a different set of targets with a different sequence than the other competitors and still be scored as "main match" category? I fully support the DB and TR as side match, just don't see how you can put them in the main match, also you need a RIFLE range to shoot it. Most of the CAS ranges I go to only have pistol ranges (50 yards or less) and couldn't even support rifle caliber shooting. CAS has long range rifle as a side match, WB should be the same.

Restrictions on the 1911 and shooting one handed are the defining aspects of Traditional, but I don't see the need to force a switch. I'll do it if there's a problem, but no other reason. Traditional is usually 25-35% of the matches I attend. Land Run and EoT have the best Traditional/Modern ratio.

Pershing's Pursuit was Missouri State WB up through 2023 (and sort of SW Territorial) and was the first to run DB and TR as main match category in 2023 before it was fully approved. They are two of the best categories, but baffle me when people say "rifle is the least emphasized part of WB." Unnecessary verbiage, that pushes things in the other direction.

For shotgun makeups?😆

Get WST powder. Cleaner than Titegroup. 200 grain slugs making about 160 PF will probably need 4.6 grains of WST, but I find each 1911 gives slightly different velocities. Find a buddy with a chronograph and test your loads. good luck, GJ

Doc, I like all your ideas, I will add these: 1, Continue to allow .38 rifles, but put a minimum Power Factor in. No Mouse Phart Loads. 2. Open the handguns back up to allow Lugers, Broomhandles, 1917s etc.

When Model 12 hunting, do NOT get a 3” Heavy Duck gun. I have not been able to make them run with 2 3/4” shells. As previously mentioned, the Lightweight versions don’t hold 6 shells. All Model 12s are takedowns and all will slam fire. I see some dealers advertise like those are super rare features.

After you get a model 12 contact Boggus Deal for one of his firing pins. ST

Model 12 is by far the fastest, most reliable and available shotgun for Wild Bunch.

This summer we started allowing folks to shoot our CAS match WB, allowing 5 in the mag for the 1911 and stoking the 97 for the usual 2-4 SG. Only a few do it, but seems to be well received so far.

When I set up a WB pocket pistol side match, I made it any 1945 or earlier model, .32 or .380 , with a barrel less than 3.5 inches, mag loaded with 6 rounds. If anough folks had expressed an interest in shooting .22s I woul dhave set up a separate category for them. The caliber limits didn't seem to bother anyone as those are the only ones anyone seemed to reload with lead bullets.I made an exception and allowed the Walther PPK/S

I can attest that this is a nice rifle.

Measured the two pills that I have and also their length so fully understand now how the reloading manuals OAL's are meaningless if they don't tell you the pill. Got the crimp good now. Loaded round are going in easy and dropping straight out of the case gauge and pistol barrel and I can turn them with my fingers in the barrel. Did put some Hornady locking rings on the Dillon dies, made things easier for me. Its all fun.......just hot in the shed in the middle of Summer!!!