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I am officially retired from Wild Buch management BUT I can tell you for the first 10 years of real Wild Bunch this question of "Shooters Choice " never was even thought about or considered. If you had a failure to fire the 1911 for any reason, you just cleared the gun, put in another magazine and continued where you were. Everyone shooting would do as Eyesa asked. Fix the gun and proceed to avoid penalties and hopefully misses. Aparently those days are past. Very sad in my opinion.

Ahh, Wednesday morning and this horse is still kind of twitching. I was really hoping someone with actual authority would have chimed in and answered this. But oh well, It's like waiting for the VA to make a decision, very slow and hope you get the desired outcome. I will also say I do not intend to start using a SxS in WB. But I did actually shot a stage at a North Carolina match recently and did use my SxS. It was the perfect scenario. Only two shotgun targets, sitting right next to each other. SxS kinda stoked will sure beat a pump every time, at least for me in this situation. Everyone called me a gamer, "NOT ME", I said. Ok final comment from me on this post, to try and lighten it up a bit. Maybe my attempt at humor will wake that horse up, and he can run far away from this post. Many years ago when I was working at our HQ, we had one of our instructors who taught the mini gun and 20mm armament system on the Cobra helicopter. He really was not a good instructor. He would basically read verbatim from the lesson plan to the students. If anyone had a question this instructor would re-read the same exact verbiage, except he would read it really slow. Then he would ask, "got it?" Repeat this action if questioned again. Then move onto the next lesson plan. This guy was the perfect example of an individual who experiences the phenomenon called "Illusory Truth Effect". So I will continue to give a no call on this situation, if it ever come's up. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. Hey about a new Mantra: If you see a SxS cycled-it's cycled If you think a SxS is cycled-it's cycled If you think the SxS is open-it's cycled If shooter throws it on table, not opened-It's not cycled Y'all try and have a nice hump day

Thanks Marshall. I do agree with that. But I still have an issue/concern. First the Cowboy handbook has no bearing on what we do in WB. But I will follow your recommendation to look at both handbooks, to include the new ROBS course. Agree both ROBS and SHB for both Cowboy and WB state, safe to leave shooters hands "empty", for the shotgun reference. But if you read in the MSV section, for Cowboy, bullet 1 and 2 both reference leaving an empty in the action or chamber of a long gun as being a penalty. So this penalty follow's with the "safe to leave shooters hand" statement. I would also emphasize "EMPTY", as this is the correct call. Now the problem is in the ROBS and SHB for WB. I agree that both ROBS and SHB for WB have the "safe to leave shooters hands" statement, and that condition is "Empty". But in the WB SHB (ROBS does not mention this issue for WB) under MSV infractions, there is no mention of leaving empties in the action or chamber of a long gun as a penalty. So this does not follow with the safe condition to leave shooters hands. And where/what penalty would be assigned? Nothing is stated in any of the penalties overview for this condition. Reading further down in both ROBS and SHB we start to run into conflicting statements. Starting with ROBS unit 10: CAS v WB - Key Elements. Third bullet is "There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is "OPEN" or that the shooter has cycled". Not going to get into the fight on whether it's possible to cycle a SxS. By opening the gun and cocking the hammers the requirement has been met for "OPEN", and the result, according to the new ROBS book, is no penalty. But then I'm also assuming that a hull is referencing a fired, empty shot shell. If it's not, maybe that's where my problem is. WB SHB also has this same no penalty statement for leaving an empty case/hull in the safety section for all firearms. So if your statement "and I emphasize is, "EMPTY", is the official ruling. You will need to remove all those other statements (from the WB ROBS & SHB) of no penalty for an empty case/hull, in addition to the PO Pocket Card. The RO Pocket card only list one MSV, and it is not for empty hulls. You will also need to come up with an addition to the MSV infractions to award a penalty for this action. The way it is now is very conflicting. If we use your emphasis of "EMPTY" what is the penalty and where can that be found for WB? Depending on how this goes, you should also look at the verbiage for Rifle Conventions (in both BODS & SHB) as it has the same empty case in the gun, it is a NO CALL-as long as the gun was cycled. But then almost directly under that statement is the "safe to leave shooters hands, Empty" statement. Again just trying to get this straight in my head. Because the way I'm reading this, no matter what call I make. There cannot be a penalty as nothing is listed in the Penalties Overview covering this situation. Thanks buddy.

Ok Monday morning, time to kick this horse. Boy y’all are making this way harder then it needs to be, or I’m dumber then my wife say’s I am. I’m not wanting/trying to stir anything up. But I have problems/issue’s with some interpretation’s/comments and just want to be able to make the correct call, and have proof in what is written in the book. As we all know a SxS shotgun does have an action, and therefore can be cycled.. It’s called a Break action or Break-open action. Heck all firearms have an action and must be cycled, if you ever want to shoot another round. The way I’m reading this post, it started out about the penalty for an empty left in the SxS gun. Then it appears to have moved to whether you can cycle the action on a SxS. We can all agree that the SHB state’s, “There is no penalty for an empty case/hull in a gun that is open or that the shooter has cycled. If a proper attempt has been made to cycle the gun. It will be cocked.” From reading the above statement, there is no penalty for an empty hull left in a shotgun. If it is open or been cycled. It’s an either OR scenario, not an And scenario. So did shooter open the SxS? If yes, no call. Was the gun cycled? If the SxS is open, it had to have been cycled, if the hammers were cocked. So another yes. No penalty for empty hull in a SxS. In the definition for “Action Cycled” where does it state “it only applies to lever and pump action long guns”? Just because that phrase is in parentheses does not make it absolute. The definition of the phrase Action Cycled is “opening the action far enough to cock the hammer” is a lot more absolute. So, the way I read it, a SxS can have it’s action cycled. So onto the last issue. Since some folks have stated that the SxS cannot have the action cycled. Either due to interpretation of the glossary or that SxS do not have an action. Anytime an individual uses a SxS in WB, will they be awarded a MSV each stage? As they cannot cycle the action of a long gun, either do to not having an action or by use of the glossary? It’s the first bullet in the MSV list in the SHB. Also FYI on the comment “addition of “lever and pump action long guns” in the definition of Action Cycled” makes it a no go”. The term’s Action Closed/Open were added in the June 2014 v 7.0 SHB. There was no Action Cycled at this time. In January 2019 v12.2 SHB is when the Action Cycled, with the current verbiage was added. But since the initial addition in 2014 these terms have always had the “(lever and pump action long guns)” after the term. Unless something officially is published for this scenario, if I’m TO’ing and a empty hull is left in an open SxS (as long as you cycle the action). You will get a no call from me. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. And there sure is a lot of doubt/misconceptions in this post. Y’all have a great day. Got my flame suit on

At least SASS retained the concept that an empty case or hull left in a long gun is a “no call” as long as the action has been cycled. They could have changed the rule back to mirror the CAS rule that the shooter had to clear the rifle or shotgun. Cowboy shooters who want to use a double in Wild Bunch have to clear it, same as in cowboy. That’s simpler than having a different rule in each sport.

How About: Call Mernickle Holsters and tell them exactly what you wrote above. They will be honest with you about how any of their holsters will hold the gun. Cliff is one to ride the river with! good luck, GJ

I don't think your read is correct. I also think the fact that we can't agree on how to read this language suggests that this needs clarification. A SxS can certainly be "cycled" and "cocked." Neither of those concepts are unique to pump or lever action guns. Even a bolt action gun can be cycled and cocked. A definition that is limited to what "cycled" means for a pump or lever action gun doesn't tell you anything about what "cycled" means for a SxS nor does it exclude a SxS from the concept of what it means to be "cycled." In this case, it's likely the authors never considered it, but even that would not have any bearing as language often has to address facts not considered and the intent of the authors has nothing to do with what words mean even if some would find it persuasive. I think looking for ways to penalize someone for something that isn't clearly a penalty is an automatic no-no. If there's no clear rule that makes a certain infraction a penalty, then it should be no-call, just like "I thought I saw a miss" is a hit. That said, I have never used a SxS in WBAS and I don't intend to start, absent my M12 going down mid-match.

That would make it a clean stage, yep. Drop mag at end and rack to slide stop to make sure the 1911 is open and empty. GJ

Thank you for the reply. I was not sure Driftwood

Hehe, Still fail to see any actual rule referenced above. But if I use your reasoning and think that a SxS cannot "cycle the action", I might buy it. I'm still calling no call. Your statement of the SxS must be empty as it is not "cycle able" holds no water for me. When the ROC tells me different, I'll change my call to a MSV. Have a great day.

So opening the action would not be considered “cycling” it? Maybe the whole idea of doubles in Wild Bunch should be reconsidered…

Read the definition of “Action Cycled” in the current SHB-it only applies to lever and pump action long guns. The Double cannot meet the “condition”.

We had our state WB match Thursday and Friday 6-4 got done in time for people to shoot side matches seemed to work pretty well

Great match! Fun and challenging! Thanks to the whole Circle K gang who put on this match. It gets better every year!

Once again, a great and challenging match. Thanks Seth and all the Circle K folks who worked so hard to make this happen. MK

I'd be in favor of eliminating that definition in the interest of competitive equity. What is "attempting"? That requires us to get into a shooter's head. Obviously there's a good argument if the hammer falls and the round doesn't fire, but the fact that we even have to debate it is too unclear. I'm also in favor of round count stages, especially for wild bunch. It'd be a whole lot easier to have high round counts and more shooting if it wasn't for sweeps.

That is a major difficulty for some shooters to understand. Review the definition of engagement of a target once more. And, no, engaging a target is not fully equivalent to firing a round down range intended for a target. The use of "engaging a target" is mostly to protect a shooter from a "target-sequence P" on specified-target-order scenarios (like sweeps) during situations where the round does not fire. I have never liked that the rules ever included having to watch for "engagement" of target just in case the shooter could not get the round to fire, and then protect the shooter from the P IF they skip trying to fire another round there. I am much more in favor of discarding "engagement" with just counting rounds fired and misses which occurred. good luck, GJ

General recommendation for making cowboy/WB shot loads, which are almost always loaded lighter than the minimum starting load normally published by Hodgdon or Alliant or VitaVouri, is to start with a 3/4 ounce wad and the powder weight from a 7/8 ounce load. Although there is a trend recently in conventional shotshell loading (trap, skeet, sporting clays) to load lighter payloads, they usually drop the shot weight to 3/4 ounce and add a little more powder to a published 7/8 or 1 ounce load and accept a higher velocity (like 1250 or 1300 FPS). That type of load does not make friends on the Cowboy range and has more recoil than you want when shooting fast. So, loads for Cowboy shells are almost never found in a published manual! They do not have a lot of "conventional" use. You have to either try stepping down powder a little at a time from what you do find published until you find a load that you like, or you get another pard who has a load built the same way who shares data with you. There's not a lot of SAFETY risk with decreasing powder weight in a load (and thus chamber pressure and velocity), but you do HAVE TO BE AWARE OF GOING SO LOW ON POWDER AS TO MAKE AN INCONSISTENT performing shell. The big danger - squibby shells that leave a wad stuck in the barrel which could bulge a barrel on the next shot, or even worse. You also have to be concerned that you have enough stack height (powder plus wad plus shot) that you can make a solid enough crimp to avoid shot leaking out! Next concern - TiteGroup is a fairly dense powder. The Clays or Red Dot you have been shooting are fluffy (low density) powders - only Trail Boss is significantly more fluffy. Using TG leads to lower stack heights and poor sunken crimps that don't "seal" the petals at the center. So, fixing that? Use a tall wad....the pink Winchester-clone wad CB0175 from ClayBuster is often chosen, as it is one of the "taller" wads in any maker's 12 gauge wad line. Second suggestion - load in one of the smaller volume hulls. Any of the Remington target type hulls (STS, Nitro27, Gun Club, American Clay and Field). Or, the new Federal High Overall hull (which is just a maroon colored STS hull). Or, a Winchester AA-HS hull. Don't run yourself through the ringer and try to load very light loads in the econo Federal Top Gun, or any of the European straight-wall hulls (Rio, Challenger, Nobel, Cheddite etc). Too much volume to have to fill to get the crimp to work well. Third (reluctant) suggestion - a little filler or an over-shot card or plastic disc over the shot. A Cheerio or similar cereal piece has been used by many light-load shooters. I avoid that, since I load on a progressive loader and don't like to slow down the process to stick something into hull after the shot drop. Fourth (even more reluctant) suggestion - trim hulls enough to make a good folded crimp, or even put a roll crimp on the light loads. I never would, ,though, and have never needed to. I find a light 7/8 ounce shot load in a Remington hull with a 7/8 ounce wad, with only enough powder to give me 1000 FPS, suits me just fine. Never have a knockdown fail to tip over, never have to worry with a flying clay bird, or a 20 yard KD target. Make a few slow 7/8 ounce loads - you may find you like them! The main "safety concern" that the powder makers who publish shotshell loads have is folks trying to load "too heavy" thinking that will kill more birds or varmints. So, they are quite concerned if you ask for anything outside of their pre-set range of chamber pressures that they consider best for conventional shooting (targets, upland game, rabbit and squirrel). But, they also want to be sure their published loads will cycle most of the semi-auto shotguns on the market. They get tired of answering mail (texts today I guess) saying - "Your starting load won't cycle my 3" chambered auto-go-boomer! They really don't worry too much about you modifying a recipe to go lighter, as long as you know how to stay away from squibby loads. If all you are willing to load is a published-minimum-load from Hodgdon, you are right, you won't find one light enough for pleasant Cowboy shooting. good luck, GJ

Mr. GJ and Mr. Eyesa JG - thank you for your quick response. Used Titewad quite a bit when first starting shooting Cowboy in 2003. Back in those day shot 45lc. Used Titewad until joining the Juneau Gun and Trap Club. Was there that I discovered called 'Clays'. Clays, from the Gun and Trap Club, cost $69 for a 8lb container back then. I never looked back. With what little I/we could afford back then, as much as afforded was spent on powder, primers and shot. Now that I am reverting to a powder that was used earlier, I did look to see if there was a shotgun load for Titegroup. Looking in Hodgdon's Loading Center (and other places) found the Titegroup settings for the 7/8oz load. However, could not find anything for a 3/4oz load. Any suggestions?? Also - thank you for the note that High Gun is the same as Titewad. Did not know that. Folks learn many good things on the SASS WB Forum. Eyesa - Why was there such a difference between the 3.9 and 4.0 grains of Titegroup? I pondered that while looking at the numbers displayed on my iPhones app for the chronograph and quickly came to the conclusion that had absolutely no idea why the difference. My reloading machines are Dillon 750s. I set the powder slide for the loads, weighed them on my RCBS Balance Beam Scale that was acquired in 1976 and reloaded 14 rounds of each load using the same weighing procedure. Still no real idea why the difference. Did decide to use the 4.0 load for my future 45acp loads when using Titegroup. Appreciate both of you responding here and a large thank you goes to both of you and anyone else reading this thread. J.J.

Look at the velocity variance of the 3.9 grain loads. Velocity range ran both lower and higher than for the 4.0 grain load. Sounds like that 3.9 grain load just was not a consistent performer. There should in general only be a slight increase in muzzle velocity going to 4.0 grains, but trying to compare one load that had velocities wandering all over to another more consistent load, it becomes to hard to draw much meaning in the differences. It's not a true decrease in velocity going with 4.0 grains, and if 25 rounds of each load were chronographed, the statistics would likely show a more realistic velocity average difference. "5 shot" velocity groups are suspect here. GJ

Use a diamond grit, small round ball-tip grinding bit and a Dremel or other rotary tool like a die grinder. Knock in a starting ding with a center punch where you want the retainer dimple. Then, secure the slide stop in a vise, brace your arms and carefully grind a single divot into that rather hard slide stop surface. Use other commercial slide stops as a guide. Grinding hardened steel is easier than spot drilling it. If you do put a stronger slide stop plunger spring in, it WILL make it slightly harder to operate the thumb safety. Not a problem in WB but if you need to shoot quickly for other purposes - consider if increasing spring strength is what you want to do. I've deepened worn dimples in slide stops before. It's pretty quick. good luck, GJ

Thanks Joe, by the time I shoot a WB match I'll be clearer on the rules! Most appreciated. EH

SHB Pg 19, top of page. Handling Conventions - Shotguns - In Wild Bunch Action Shooting, side by side/double barrel shotguns are loaded under TO supervision at the staging location and staged open. The action may not close until “after the beep.” Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position. If vertical staging is used, the double/side by side will have to be staged empty. It's allowed at the Start of the Stage, not any other time during the stage.

Scarlett Darlin’ sells .45 ACP “Cowboy Cartridges” for those who don’t “roll their own”.

Depending on application, I have springs from Wolff, ISMI, Springco, Wilson Combat, Colt, EGW, Thunder Mountain and others.

Okay, am I the only one who keeps a Wolff 1911 spring pack on hand for when I buy a used 1911?