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That rig is set up for the buckle in the back.

Yep, me at EoT several years ago. 0.1 ozs overweight. Slim grips fitted!! See Happy Jacks last two sentences!! Jim

YES I weighed guns at matches for years. I had a few go overweight and the shooter fixed them or changed guns. That was when we would weigh them before a match if asked. I remember after we went to weighing them during the match and they failed. Then the person could shoot the remaining stages if they wished but for no score for the match.

I like having the separate forums. I wish people would use the Wild Bunch forum more. I think there are people willing to help out on both forums...but it is nice to have more specific places to go to for certain information

This forum doesn't have nearly the same amount of traffic/volume that the SASS wire maintains. 13 hours since your question and less than 30 views. If it's a general question about reloading or a popular firearm, including a 1911, there will be more feedback at the SASS wire than here. There are plenty of knowledgeable individuals over that may or may not be shooting Wild Bunch. Moving Wild Bunch under a sub-thread at the SASS wire would seem to make navigation and account login easier - and also potential invite more views from those not started in Wild Bunch... but if you're trying to argue your relevancy and existence, that last thing you'd want to do is be a step child at another forum.

I purchased one of the WSP trade in's that were being sold just after they were traded in. I think I paid about $125 with LEO discount They sold fast. I had my pick. Never fired it. Still sits in the gun room. Serial # places it as 1954, one year younger than myself. One of several M12 that I have. Driftwood

Burn them. Burn them with fire. Terminate them with extreme prejudice. That is all. FJT

Mine is. Just about every male WB Shooter I know is in the back. Makes it easier to place you holster and mag pouches.

Now if they colored the brass, say purple, when they had small primers - that would be fine 🙂

I have wanted a Savage 99 since I was a kid reading Roy Chapman Andrews' exploits in China and Mongolia. But prices kept going higher and higher on them. But we had a shooter grade one come in to the LGS I work part time at, so I put it on layaway. It will be next month before I pay it off, but I am stoked to get it. It's in .300 Savage, so reloading is on tap for it. Hopefully I can use it in Teddy Roosevelt shooting and not embarrass myself too much.

I’ve not DQd a shooter but I made them swap guns. Just like a very nice lady whose husband had given her a liteweight Kimber to shoot. She did not speak English and had no idea. Her husband was an a*^. If he had been shooting the gun, I would have DQd him.

The most reliable and most competitive shotgun for Wild Bunch is the Winchester Model 12. Takes no parts to have it hold 6 rounds. Most are quite smooth and reliable as is. You don’t need 2-3 like with a 97. A myriad of 1911s available for Modern category and a number for Traditional. Wild Bunch is more a game of equipment reliability and quality ammo than cowboy. The .45 ACP ammo needs to be consistent and 100%.

Howdy, Just sharing a recent acquisition. I picked up a neat Model 12 Riot stamped "Washington State Patrol". It's in good shape with normal wear, scuff marks and dings from being carried in a car. The serial number puts the manufacturing date in 1959. Still has a legible rack number on the stock. The interior of the receiver was extremely dirty and the bolt was gummed up with small pieces of wood, dirt, old grease and oil that was a sticky, hardened mess. The action was rough and stiff until I did a complete tear down and deep clean. After cleaning and shooting a few boxes of cowboy loads, it is smooth, like a model 12 should be. It won't be my primary Wild Bunch shotgun, but I will use it in matches/stages occasionally and shoot it for fun. I will use it, not abuse it. Based on my research, the Riot shotguns for Washington State Patrol were factory stamped on the left side of the receiver. They were replaced by the Remington 870 police model starting in the 80's. The 870's were phased in as officers retired and the last model 12 was taken out of service in the early 90's. Anybody out there know anything more about these riot shotguns?

Very nice gun! Would love to get my hands on one of those!

I'm right handed, I thought the belt was for a lefty but it's not. It's designed to be buckled in the back which up until I put my 2023 state championship buckle on it, I didn't like that. Now I can buckle it in the back with almost no trouble with the new buckle on it. I've spent some time drawing and doing mag changes and wow this is so much better than the rig I made from old duty gear I've been using for 5 years! I've cut 2-3 seconds off my mag change times! Man I love this set up!

Thinking the belt is buckled on your backside and the holster is supposed to be placed next to t he shotgun shell holders. Could be wrong. Been wrong before, will be wrong again. However, it is a nice looking rig. J.J.

I've seen a gun that was too heavy in Traditional back about 2011. Shooter brought out his backup. He carried on. good luck, GJ

A question was raised at Land Run during the warmup, so the match director specifically addressed it in the main match shooter’s meeting as allowed/legal. There is nothing in the rules about it, and I would have a hard time arguing against it when I look at original issued 1911 holsters.

I’ve worn a tied down holster since I started shooting Wild Bunch. And no one ever said a thing. But that was when common sense ruled.

Survey Update, I have included the only other results published. Jim WB_Survey_Data (5).pdf

Because the WB TG's are the ones who decide what rule changes/clarifications are to be introduced. SASS has asked that the TG's take ownership of the "survey" and, after receiving input from the shooters, submit changes and clarifications to SASS HQ for adoption. Nothing nefarious going on, just making sure the TG's, some are new, understand their duties and who does what.

What I've found interesting is despite the folks on the wire are all folks that like firearms, despite that most are conservative, despite that most like the old west time period, despite that most like competition, despite that Wild Bunch has been around as a Main Match competition for 15+ years. somehow we can find something to disagree about.

From the WB ROC, This will be in the updated SHB when it comes out. "1887/1901 loading procedure verbiage shall read “at the loading table, load as many rounds as 87/01 will hold, up to 6 in magazine and carrier. Close action on empty chamber, hammer must fall unimpeded.”

Illegal modification………was it approved paint?

Just painted the dots.☺️

Ahh, Wednesday morning and this horse is still kind of twitching. I was really hoping someone with actual authority would have chimed in and answered this. But oh well, It's like waiting for the VA to make a decision, very slow and hope you get the desired outcome. I will also say I do not intend to start using a SxS in WB. But I did actually shot a stage at a North Carolina match recently and did use my SxS. It was the perfect scenario. Only two shotgun targets, sitting right next to each other. SxS kinda stoked will sure beat a pump every time, at least for me in this situation. Everyone called me a gamer, "NOT ME", I said. Ok final comment from me on this post, to try and lighten it up a bit. Maybe my attempt at humor will wake that horse up, and he can run far away from this post. Many years ago when I was working at our HQ, we had one of our instructors who taught the mini gun and 20mm armament system on the Cobra helicopter. He really was not a good instructor. He would basically read verbatim from the lesson plan to the students. If anyone had a question this instructor would re-read the same exact verbiage, except he would read it really slow. Then he would ask, "got it?" Repeat this action if questioned again. Then move onto the next lesson plan. This guy was the perfect example of an individual who experiences the phenomenon called "Illusory Truth Effect". So I will continue to give a no call on this situation, if it ever come's up. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. Hey about a new Mantra: If you see a SxS cycled-it's cycled If you think a SxS is cycled-it's cycled If you think the SxS is open-it's cycled If shooter throws it on table, not opened-It's not cycled Y'all try and have a nice hump day

Great policy for you. Won't help grow the game, though, if you have any concern there. Won't help keep older folks shooting as joint pain creeps into their lives. And gets SASS into a nanny role on reloading. good luck, GJ

And, that's the reason for the change. Gets more folks shooting.

I'm curious how many folks have actually lightened their pistol loads. My guess, is some but not most. Granted, some new WB shooters may be starting with a lighter load as I've seen some new folks have 1911 cycling issues. IMHO, Rifle is not the gun that determines matches. For me, I'd bet my .38 rifle and .45 rifle are only a few tenths different in a 10 shot string. I have yet to see a SxS at any WB matches I have shot since the change. Are Power Factor rule changes actually making any measurable difference in the game? I honestly don't know. The rule changes don't seem to prevent anyone from participating the exact same way they did before the change. Is it the position on the scoresheet that has folks upset? Shooting my .38 rifle sure didn't raise me up on any scoresheets, but it makes reloading for my wife and I easier and cheaper. Totes

Easy mistake I think. I don't often see mens belts buckle in back. But there are some!

Yeah, I figured that out last night messing with it. Not sure how I like that though. Now I feel stupid that I sent them a message that "they" screwed up...lol... oh well, at least now I have a funny story to tell at the next match...

The change from a 230 grain slug to a 225 grain slug will make about 3 Power Factory numbers difference (lower). It will NOT knock down a 180 PF to a 155 PF or so! There is still something really wrong in your understanding of the load. 5.2 grains of Unique cannot make that load have 180 PF. good luck, GJ May be time for another person to chrono your loads. Not every chronograph is accurate nor is every shooter good at setting up and calibrating and operating a chrono.

NOPE! I don't believe something with your data! Lyman loading manuals for years have shown the starting load for a 225 grain cast bullet and Unique to be 5.5 grains of powder, which they report making 695 FPS. That would be 156 Power Factor - just barely legal for WB. Tell us your EXACT bullet weight and chronograph muzzle (5 feet away) velocity reading. I suspect you have the velocity reading wrong. I doubt you would ever need to be below 5.5 grains. Otherwise, you have a 1911 that is able to make a much HIGHER muzzle velocity than would be expected. I went way back in Lyman handbooks. The 45th Edition (1970 vintage) shows a starting load for the 225 grain slug as 5.0 grains of Unique. Manuals newer than that start the load data at 5.5 grains. And as to "flash-over" (AKA Secondary Explosion Event)? NEVER heard that concern when loading light loads in a 1911 or any other handgun using a normal speed handgun powder. But, there is no real reason to be below Lyman's 5.5 grain starting load that I mentioned above. I suspect the "powder company rep" made quite a mistake with his advice, or you asked him a poorly worded question. If he was from Alliant, he needs to go back to school. Did you calculate Power Factor correctly? PF = bullet weight (grains) x velocity (fps) / 1000 So, Lyman's starting load makes 225 x 695 / 1000 or 156 PF. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now, if by any chance you are using a 250 grain slug in the 1911 - STOP! All the 250 grain bullets I have tried do NOT seat well in the short .45 Auto case. The base of the slug bulges most brands of brass at the mid-case area when seated to put the top of the bullet lands at the mouth of the case. There are several real reasons why no loading manual shows loads for bullets heavier than 230 grains in the .45 auto. Potential failure to chamber loaded rounds is one of them. Also, easy to get recoil that pounds the gun too hard. My personal experience - when I was much younger and longed for my 1911 to really buck, I loaded the 225 grain cast bullet with 7.0-7.5 grains of Unique - kind of the standard load with Unique back when Col Cooper was holding court. A load that will make you understand the 1911 is a potent gun. But now I like the 5.6 grain load better with a 225 grain bullet, but not as well as I like several cleaner modern powders. good luck, GJ

I've never noticed any holster-tie-down (or strap) being used in Wild Bunch over the last 18 years. So, the call seems to hold to customary equipment use. But then, I would not see that any holster hold-down provides a lot of assistance. Nor would I consider it to be harmful to the "traditional" look of a shooter's costume. I think you took the correct course of action at the match. good luck, GJ

Most people run 20-22”. Some like a little short. Some longer. It’s a matter of personal preference.

The 6th round sits on the carrier. When you close the action it is pushed part way into the magazine tube. Some 1887's will hold six with no modification. Others need a slight modification to hold the 6th round. Explained nicely below. First the review and then the fix

HI JJ et al, Flying Ramrod got it right in his post. As with a lot of these posts they tend to wander. Please may I refer you back to my original post that started this discussion. I, as a TG can only represent the membership within my club. With the help of Wooden Nichols and the 4 Corners Regional meeting we expanded the survey. So far, the results as posted represent 55 WB shooters. I have only seen one further set of results to the survey posted. The survey only reflects the issues within my club. It can be used as a template or completely revamped it is up to your TG as to how they represent your club members. Do you have a WBTG? Have you spoken to them? This fall, the WBTG's are supposed to vote on members concerns/issues so they need to know what they are. Hence my one liner post. As always, from my end of the rope. Jim

I loved my first Series 70 - Bought it in 1975 for $208 new - Accurate, would feed anything, eject anything. The collet never bothered me. Put pachmyers on it and a micro MMC rear sight and used it for 20 years. One of the few guns that I REALLY regret getting rid of. I tried to "replace" it by buying another around 2012 that had had the collet replaced with a King. Good gun but really finicky about what it would feed. Lost count of the 1911's that I've had but nothing was as good as that first Series 70.

Hello Mr. Miller - As I read your short note here on this wire, can only wonder what has prompted this one liner? Is SASS WB ready to sent to the slaughter house and why the sense of urgency that now is the time for all of us WB shooters express our concerns to SASS through our TG’s? The bigger concern with your statement is why all the secrecy? There has to be a reason why this was generated. . . . . Why not place your best foot forward, spit out your reasons for this and dispense with the suspense?? J.J.

I have a High Standard model 200 thats stamped "LVPD 42983" i got in a trade for of all things, a hi point 40cal that i traded an eig 22 saa for... I wish I could use it in a WB match... Its part of my "police gun" collection. Maine state police HK45, WV state police Glock 19, AACO MD colt police positive 38spl, south saxony (germany) police Walther PP .32acp, 1918 police Luger P08 9mm, and my Hopkins and Allen Safety Police 38S&W from some town in TN (i forgot what town it was from) I got on auction arms 10 or so years ago for $25 shipped from a charity auction for the town raising money to restore the old jail/fire dept...

Love that beauty!

Mr. Moonshine - I dropped back into the WB Forum to see if anybody had furthered along this thread. I suspected that if anyone was to make any comments that it might be you. By the way, I do not consider that to be a bad thing. Before I get further along in this, I have to repeat a quote of a person that I met quite some time ago while shooting WB at some of the California State WB Matches at DDCT. This quote from him expresses my thoughts also: "I actually enjoy it more than CAS (I know - Sacrilege!)" Your response on the first read through reads well enough. The second time through I had some questions. Your first statement I can agree with completely. Your second sentence is where the questions start. You state: "there is a ton of conversations taking place almost on a daily basis regarding great ideas for WB". What are these conversations? Our TG has never mentioned anything these conversations? Another of your comments draws questions to my mind. You state: "WB is growing at an unprecedented rate". Where is the data to back this up? The first part of the sentence that contains the last statement also states this: "TG's and WBROC are all talking and there will be several topics at Land Run and again at EOT 2026." Interestingly enough our TG has not stated anything like this. Neither have the TG's, that I spoke to, in the areas we traveled to shoot WB Matches this year. With one exception (and one match only) I have not noticed any type of significant growth in WB. From April to August our travels were directed to matches that also held WB Matches. Not side matches, but real 10 stage WB Matches. Let me tell you what I learned. With that one exception most of the WB targets were further out than I have ever shot. The shooters at the top will always be at the top. It's from the middle of the pack to the bottom is where the discontent is. At award ceremonies, match directors ask the crowd if they had a good time at their match. The guys at the top of the heap are mostly quiet. You can catch an attitude that some of those enjoyed the match. Those that didn't are quiet. It's too bad that match directors can't be sitting in the back, anonymously, and listen to what others have to say about the targets further back than last year, procedurals are up because of ridiculous scenarios and this misses they all had. Then listen to them state they aren't coming back to this again. This didn't happen at just one of the matches. For my own self been to matches that had targets 63' back (correct figure, because a person in the posse before day 1 took out his 100' tape measure and measured the distance). Been to matches, this year, where out of a 17 man posse, the Day 1 had 15 procedurals. Day 2 brought only 12 on the same stage. Was at a match with misses like this: This is after the Top 5 shooters, 10, 5, 9, 12, 16, 31, 33, 23, 31, 7, 6, 35, 25, 27, 21, 30, 37, 25, 28, 43, 28, 24, 42, 57 and 34. Listening to those guys at the lower half of this match did not express much of an interest of coming back next year. Another of the matches I attended went something like this. Before Day 1 started, some of the club officers realized that targets had been sent waaaay to far out. They dragged all of the targets on the bays 3' in. At the end of Day 1, upon advice for some shooters, these same club officers dragged all of the targets further in by 10'. On day 2, the closest target was 18' back. Not a respectful distance for a WB Match for that one set of targets. The others were further back. I could go on much more. I think everyone that has made it this far has an understanding what I am attempting to get across. Of all the WB matches we attended this summer, there was not a single WB match that had a clean shooter. Neither did the 38/45 rifle issue seem to be an issue to most anyone. So where is this going? All this little person in the WB shooting community would like to see is some answers to statements above. By the way, the one exception to far out targets was a 10 stage match, where the targets were in even closer than I like to shoot WB. What those close in targets did was allow the fast shooters at the match (I was on a posse with some really, really fast 1911 shooters) to spray away. I learned that just like at the Tombstone Cowboy Match, no targets can be brought in close enough to where they will not be missed. There was not a single clean shooter at this match either. And No, I do not believe that WB should be dragged down to WB Shooting at close Cowboy targets. Where is the happy medium. A good match director, pared with a person who is experienced at setting WB stages, knows how to give their audience an enjoyable WB match experience. I'm not going to give up WB shooting. WB shooting is still is enjoyable. However, I m going to start voting, with our hard earned $'s, to attend matches that are enjoyable. Tired of spending thousands of $'s, traveling for days with hundreds of miles on the truck for hours and hours, the cost of fuel going up and not have an enjoyable time. There has to be a happy medium out there. Am also tired of listening to match directors state "this is a state/regional/national/world match. It's supposed to be challenging." My belief is a quote from the person who taught me how to shoot WB and coached me everywhere we met up. His statement was this: "Set a match so that the shooters out shoot the targets and not the targets out shoot the shooters." Kinda an encompassing statement when you think about it. This year in our travels, we met a whole gaggle of great new shooters to us. We look forward to seeing them on a range again. Perhaps all of those folks mentioned above that are in the know, can start to plan just a little differently to make matches just a little more enjoyable. Thanks for reading this probably somewhat boring saga and have a super weekend. J.J.

Well, you’d be wrong, too. See my post above. And reread the rule book. It says military STYLE blade sights and it specifically mentions the Harrison Design and 10-8 rear sights.

Blacked out three dot sights are legal. I don't know which ROC member said they were illegal, but they are wrong. Marshal Stone ROC member

Whoever dreamt-up Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy should have thought a bit more about the pistol requirements. Both of these new WB categories should require that they be shot with a Mil-spec 1911, Traditional, single-handed grip - the way the Good Lord and John Browning meant for it to be.

IMO, it's just being inconsiderate of everyone that has been using the large primer 45Auto brass for decades. So yep, user name fits. Folks using the small primer brass are simply making it harder for those set up for large primer 45Auto to reload. Brass is not cheaper. I haven't found anywhere that sells new, unprimed small primer brass, and those that sell used brass charge the same, whether small or large primer. I will not return your brass to you, when it winds up in my brass bag, I put it in my scrap brass bin and sell it. In my view, small primer 45 Auto brass is probably the brain child of some "anti-gun" engineer who thought it a great way to infuriate gun folks. Very much how I feel about Hodgdon and its Pyrodex rusting agent that burns.

Do you have any authority for that proposition? It seems like a quite dramatic oversight, but CAS rules do not apply to WBAS and they are co-equals; WB is not inferior or subject to the rules from the other game.

You can load anything with Unique. Unique will do all things good . But not the best it can be done .

SHB Pg 19, top of page. Handling Conventions - Shotguns - In Wild Bunch Action Shooting, side by side/double barrel shotguns are loaded under TO supervision at the staging location and staged open. The action may not close until “after the beep.” Any additional rounds needed must be loaded from the body or other specified staging position. If vertical staging is used, the double/side by side will have to be staged empty. It's allowed at the Start of the Stage, not any other time during the stage.

Try 5.5-5.6gn of Unique. OLG