New shooter questions

[Dantankerous]

Hi all. I have been shooting CAS for about 9 years and am wanting to get starting in WB. Not many matches in my area this time of year to watch or in which to participate and learn so I am trying to glean answers to my questions from reading and watching WB shooting videos on YouTube. A couple of questions:

 

It looks like shooters have the option of loading 1911 mags at their guncart OR the loading table. NO mag in 1911, of course until at loading table. Load table actions involve loading rifle and shotgun and inserting a loaded (5 rounds only) mag into 1911, but NOT racking 1911 until on the clock. Is it standard practice to have mag pouches on belt with loaded mags and an extra to load into the 1911 when approaching the loading table? Seems like 4 mag pouches (2 double mag pouches) and an extra mag, all loaded prior to arriving at load table with the extra mag carried to the load table to be inserted into the 1911 works and follows safety rules and that this combination would suffice for an average stage in terms of rounds needed? Some stages more, some less, but 5 mags per stage average?

 

Seems like loading all pistol mags at loading table would be burdensome and waste time therefore mags can be loaded away from loading table?

 

Also looks like a shooter may carry as many mags on the body as is comfortable and on opposite side of holster which I presume means a shooter can have loaded mags on his person whether he is approaching the firing line or not, much like live ammo carried in loops on cowboy gun belts at all CAS matches? No need to unload mags NOT used on stage, just keep them in mag pouch?

 

Shotguns... how often are there more than 5-6 shotgun targets? Most CAS shooters carry up to 20 shot shells on the belts for shooting cowboy. Is this ever really necessary in WB? How many extra shot shells might one need for a WB stage?

 

Other than the special rule about the Model 12 (regarding the internal hammer) is there anything else to consider between the '97 and 12 for WB?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Garrison Joe]

Loading mags - yep, load 'em at the cart.  Keep 'em loaded on your person or anyplace else - a mag is NOT a gun.  One gets inserted into pistol at loading table.  Pistol is cleared of the last mag used (and any cartridge in the chamber) on the firing line at end of stage. No problems.  A mag is not a gun! 

 

You may carry as many mags as you can fit in single mag or double mag holders on a belt.  As long as you carry none on the side where your holster rides.  That means for most folks, you can carry 6 in mag holders.  If you need more, you can carry mags in pockets, or even stage loaded mags at various positions on the firing line.  It is real rare that I need to have more loaded mags than the 6 on my belt and the 1 I charge into the pistol at the loading table. 

 

The common and practical limit to shotgun targets on a stage is 8 to 10.  For that, a four or six shell slide on the belt works when you need more than the 6 you can load in the shotgun mag tube.  Mernickle makes one I use, which snaps over the belt buckle and gives me 4 shotshells and 5 rifle rounds.  If someone sets up more targets than 10, extra shells can be staged on props.  Or a cowboy-style shotgun belt can be strapped on for that particular stage.  It's been a couple of years since I needed to do that.

 

More 97s are used than Model 12s.  Folks have lots of experience running a 97.  A Model 12 can be smoother, but hard to make it much faster than a smooth 97.  No new production of Model 12s by Chinese at this time, but there is for 97 clones.  97 was designed by JMB.  The 12, not. 

 

In reality, it's not worth arguing about, they are that close.  Just depends upon what you want to devote practice to running fast. 

 

[Blackfoot]

GJ covered it pretty well.  I, like a lot of other Wild Bunch shooters use a stage strip that will hold 6 shotgun shells, 10 rifle shells and a 1911 magazine.  I have 4 shotgun shells and 4 rifle shells on my belt along with 6 magazines.

 

Blackfoot :)

[August West]

Around our part of the country, 30 round pistol strings are common.  That means six magazines, assuming everything works harmoniously.  But, of course, Murphy being how he is, seven magazines are minimum for a 30 round stage.  So......  four, double magazine pouches are a standard set-up around here.  Guys who are in good shape carry eight loaded magazines at all times.  While I have four double pouches on my belt, I only carry more than six when the stage calls for 30 rounds.  Six, however, is the minimum, normal load-out.

[Garrison Joe]

Gotta be careful with 4 double mag holders on your gun belt.  Folks at about a hip size of 34" or smaller cannot usually keep all the magazines between their belly button line and the spine.  If your mags extend past the spine, you don't have all mags on the opposite side of your body from the holster.

 

Now, if you are willing to wear two belts, you have more room for mag holders....

 

[Dantankerous]

Gotta be careful with 4 double mag holders on your gun belt.  Folks at about a hip size of 34" or smaller cannot usually keep all the magazines between their belly button line and the spine...

 

I am well past a 34" waistline these days. Should be more than enough room on my belt for 3 double mag pouches if not 4 without creating a problem.

 

;D

 

Thanks for all the help, folks.

[Boggus Deal]

Winter Range and EOT this year both had 12 round SG stages. If you don't have a shotgun, get a model 12 and don't look back!

One bit of advice, never put your empty mags back in your belt after a stage. Somehow, they will end up being pulled at the wrong time when you need full mags.

[Dantankerous]

I have been looking at the model 12. Seems like a solid choice. I once had a '97 but never could get the hang of loading it on the clock so I sold it. I shoot Classic Cowboy so a '97 just don't git much use... until I figgered to try WB. Ugh...

 

I handled a couple 12's down at Red Dirt Rampage and probably should have purchased one but at the time I needed to do some research on them. Most recently missed out on a beaut at Cabela's too. Bummer.

 

Does the extra "safety" step in showing the 12 safe at the line ever cause problems? I'd imagine you fail the check once and you'll never forget to do it again.

 

The '97 does have a certain look I prefer over the 12 though, most certainly the WW1 military version. I know, heat shield is unnecessary, but it is stylish. the 12 seems to have a bit more reliability over the '97 from what I have read. Comments?

 

I have done some IDPA and know what you mean about putting empty mags back in a pouch.  :o

 

 

 

 

[Garrison Joe]

Does the extra "safety" step in showing the 12 safe at the line ever cause problems? I'd imagine you fail the check once and you'll never forget to do it again.

 

Yes, it has SDQd some shooters MORE than once.  Almost all 12 shooters have some indicator (a bandana, a plastic clip, etc) that they run through the trigger guard and remove once they see it at the line and ask the TO to listen as they pull the trigger.  That visual, physical reminder works SO much better than trying to remember to pull the trigger "just because you are shooting a 12"

 

 

[Boggus Deal]

It's usually not a problem. As a T/O, I try to remind a Model 12 shooter to declare it. I use a bandana for my own self.

There are some T/Os who ho out of their way to not help the shooter but they are extremely rare.

Remember, Model 12s  have won Winter Range and EOT for the last few years.

[Garrison Joe]

When a 12 decides to break or go out of time, you won't find many Cowboy gunsmiths to work on it.  I've had to send mine back to the two or three good Model 12 mechanics in Illinois or Missouri.  12s break firing pins, 97s break left hand extractors.

 

(Hmmm, maybe I ought to retro-fit a 12 extractor into my 97s......)

 

Remember, Model 12s  have won Winter Range and EOT for the last few years.

Seem to remember EOT 2016 Traditional and Sr Traditional categories being won with 97s....

 

And last year's WR speed shotgun team match was won by a couple of 97 shooters.  So, as stated earlier, it's just what you decide to pour your practice time into... 8)

 

 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Two top Model 12 mechanics are Mark Braid (Idaho Six Gun Sam's husband) and Goatneck Clem.

[Lone Dog]

I have 6 M12s now and love them more than any of my dozen or so original and Chinee 97s and 93/97s. Goatneck slicked up a coupla of them well.

 

At the LT I stick a good sized white bar towel in the triggerguard to remind me to show the loose trigger at the line. Then it is good to wipe guns, your hands or your brow with...

[Allie Mo]

Hi Dan...,

 

I have room for six mags. The normal inhabitant of the mag. that is farthest back, is the Barney Fife bullet. In other words, that mag. only contains one bullet.

 

In a WBAS class, I was told that would likely come in handy. It sure has. I've lost count of the number of times something went amiss and I needed just one. If we have a 30 round stage (rare), I put the Barney mag in my pouch.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Dantankerous]

Allie Mo,

 

Thank you. Makes sense to head off Murphy at the wrong time. Ammo problem, mag problem = Mr Murphy. Now, how about carrying an extra 5 rd loaded mag so when the shooter drops the loaded mag on a mag change? I am betting some shooters have that extra just in case too. I'd hate to fumble fingers my way into 5 misses.

 

::)

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

I have two double magazine pouches for reloads and I carry a fifth mag to the LT to start off the stage. Our local matches are usually 20 pistol rounds per stage, seldom more so my five magazines give me five extra rounds in case a malfunction causes me to toss out a live round.  I used to carry a "Barney mag" loaded with one round but I grabbed it by mistake in a match and got one round off when I wanted five.  Keep in mind that a loaded magazine can be carried in a pocket.

 

We were using Model 12s before they were officially allowed.  I don't have trouble remembering to show it to the TO.  I forget other stuff!

 

Lots of used Model 12s out there.  I don't feel quite as confident with the M12 as I do with a '97, having more trigger time with the former, but that's nothing to do with the gun.

 

For lack of another way to carry extra shotshells to the line, I wear a single loop shotgun belt for Wild Bunch.  If I need more than six shells on a stage (rare in my area). I pull them from the belt and single load through the ejection port.

[Legendary Lawman]

Hi Dan

 

Some of the others eluded to it, confirming your last question - yes, always have at least one more mag than the stage calls for.  The Barney mag is in addition if you so choose.  Some carry one of those but many don't.

While in some places you shoot a maximum of 20 rounds, get 6 pouches, because a lot of places have some stages with 25 and 30 rounds thank goodness.

[Last Chance]

Get a model 12. A good model 12 will be faster and smoother than a 97.