Power factor for Rifles

[Jim Miller]

When looking at load data for the 38spl round it would seem that the WB 150 PF is easily achieved. I tested my Cowboy knock down loads with 158grn bullets.

With an average of 969fps they gave a PF of 153. Well within the SASS max of 1400fps. As this was with low humidity and at 6,000ft I may have to up the charge a little to be comfortable wherever I travel.

All rounds tested were started with a clock held one step directly behind and at waist height both under cover and in the open. All rounds were recorded. 

 

[marshal stone]

I did some testing with factory .38 HSM and Winchester cowboy action loads. (158 gr. bullet)

I did the test with the rifle flat and tipping it up to about 170 degrees between shots.

Rifle used was a Uberti 357 with a 20-inch barrel.

Testing was done in an indoor range use a Lab Radar chrono. Temp was about 65.

We are about 400 ft. above sea level.

HSM flat gave a power factor of 157.1 Tipping up gave a power factor of 158.8.

Winchester flat gave a power factor of 167.6. Tipping up gave a power factor of 169.8.

So, as you can see 150 PF is easily attainable. Just need the minimum bullet weight for

38/357 to be 158.

WB ROC and TG's need to consider this.

Marshal Stone

 

 

[July Smith]

Is there a PF requirement for the rifle now?  I agree it is easy to make 150 PF with a fairly moderate 38sp load, but I though eliminating the PF for the rifle was one of the more controversial rule changes.  

[Jorge]

The minimum power factor for rifles in SASS Wild Bunch is 60.

The minimum power factor for .45 acp is 150.

 

[El Chapo]

A 158 grain bullet at 1000 fps out of a 20" barrel is a piece of cake if that was what we were expected to load.  I don't bother because the power factor is 60, so I doubt my 125s are more than 900 fps.  I could probably bump them to 1200 or even more out of the rifle if that was what was required, but I don't think it'd enhance the game at all for them to require me to do so.

If people really cared about power factor, the power factor for 45 ACP should be raised to at least 165, if not 175.  A handgun at that power is much harder to shoot fast than one at 150.  A 45 ACP with a 10 pound recoil spring and 150 pf ammo is a mouse fart compared to a 16 pound spring and 180+ pf (factory type) hard ball loads.

[Boggus Deal]

9 hours ago, El Chapo said:

A 158 grain bullet at 1000 fps out of a 20" barrel is a piece of cake if that was what we were expected to load.  I don't bother because the power factor is 60, so I doubt my 125s are more than 900 fps.  I could probably bump them to 1200 or even more out of the rifle if that was what was required, but I don't think it'd enhance the game at all for them to require me to do so.

If people really cared about power factor, the power factor for 45 ACP should be raised to at least 165, if not 175.  A handgun at that power is much harder to shoot fast than one at 150.  A 45 ACP with a 10 pound recoil spring and 150 pf ammo is a mouse fart compared to a 16 pound spring and 180+ pf (factory type) hard ball loads.

Any one that shoots a 10# recoil spring with even a 150PF is inviting trouble. Broken firing pin springs, frame, slide and barrel battering, short spring life. 
 

[Jorge]

Many seemed to have loaded the .45 acp for a power factor closer to 160, to ensure making the cut.  Not unreasonable for the power factor to be 150-160 for the .45

For the rifle, it would be easy to get to a PF of 120 with a 158 gr bullet and many of the common powders used for the .38 special, according to the loading manuals that I have looked at.  Going to a .38 +P or even a .357, which is the chamber anyway, may require a different powder, and I would bet that some would use that (getting another powder) to PREVENT them from shooting WB.

In any case, I am in favor of a higher (than 60) PF for the rifle, and continuing the 150 minimum for the 1911, .45 acp.

And, I would chrono at State and above matches.

[marshal stone]

A 150 PF in .38's isn't a problem using 158 gr. bullets

I did some testing recently and had the following results with FACTORY .38 special 158 gr. COWBOY AMMO.

Grizzly just made it with a 151 PF, HSM made a 158 PF, Winchester made 168 PF

All shot at indoor range with my 20" rifle

The Winchester is the ammo that is provided to the club for the annual

youth day. Kids from 8-18 shoot this out of revolvers and rifles, without issue.

What's the problem with a 150 power factor for both pistol and rifle.

Shoot .38's if you must but make 150 PF. Just don't make excuses!!!

Marshal Stone

WB TG

Alaska 49ers

[CC Moonshine]

Good day all,

Just for consideration, keep in mind why the rifle power factor was dropped in the updated rules.

WB needs people to try it and it has to be easy for them to try.

Our #1 goal right now is growing WB. We really really have to grow it by a pretty good margin.

By removing the power factor, people from CAS can just grab their standard CAS load and try it. 

Then if they enjoy it, they can easily continue without major time or equipment investment.

It has already completed the checkmark as proof of concept and is growing.

We can't hang up the progress right away by fine tuning things that detract the progress.

I know, myself and at least 5 , maybe 10 people that don't have time to add loading 158 grain ammo on top over everything else we load or do.

I would just stop AGAIN shooting WB and so would they. It's purely a time issue for most of us.

Besides, We are talking about the least considered firearm with the least round count in the game. WHY are we thinking it needs to get harder right now to draw in 

new blood ?

Please think about the growth for now, how to make it easier for people to get in the game and try it.

That is the most important and pressing issue for WB. Everything else can come after.....

Just something to think about,

Have a fantastic week,

CC Moonshine

 

 

 

[Boggus Deal]

4 hours ago, CC Moonshine said:

Good day all,

Just for consideration, keep in mind why the rifle power factor was dropped in the updated rules.

WB needs people to try it and it has to be easy for them to try.

Our #1 goal right now is growing WB. We really really have to grow it by a pretty good margin.

By removing the power factor, people from CAS can just grab their standard CAS load and try it. 

Then if they enjoy it, they can easily continue without major time or equipment investment.

It has already completed the checkmark as proof of concept and is growing.

We can't hang up the progress right away by fine tuning things that detract the progress.

I know, myself and at least 5 , maybe 10 people that don't have time to add loading 158 grain ammo on top over everything else we load or do.

I would just stop AGAIN shooting WB and so would they. It's purely a time issue for most of us.

Besides, We are talking about the least considered firearm with the least round count in the game. WHY are we thinking it needs to get harder right now to draw in 

new blood ?

Please think about the growth for now, how to make it easier for people to get in the game and try it.

That is the most important and pressing issue for WB. Everything else can come after.....

Just something to think about,

Have a fantastic week,

CC Moonshine

 

 

 

Just like every other rule change made in the last ten years “to get people to try it”, thinking dropping the rifle power factor will get anyone to try it is just bull produced fertilizer. What it did do and will continue to do is drive dedicated shooters away. Just look at EOT 2024. What was it down? 50-60 shooters? EOT sold out last year at 175ish. This year there were just over 100 shooters. As I’ve stated many, many times, the same complainers will continue to complain and NOT shoot. The one big complainer over on the cowboy wire already said he still won’t shoot because he can’t have an ambi safety on his Traditional gun. He was also that said years ago he would shoot when he could load 7 in the mag. Guess what? He still don’t shoot it. And won’t. He’ll just keep whining. I’m not sure why he wanted seven in the magazine. He can’t count to five in his revolvers. How does he expect to count to seven in his magazines?

[CC Moonshine]

Good morning,

EOT 2024 can't be the barometer for the future of WB. 

 I talk with several match directors and shooters all the time, that have seen a huge upswing in WB numbers from cross over CAS to WB shooters.

Most are using 38 rifle and their standard CAS loads. 

Our club alone has over 50% of the shooters using 38 CAS loads and that never shoot WB prior to the rule change.

We need to build the ranks of WB, using the path of least resistance for them to try it and transition. 

This does not have to be a "forever" rule nor does any rule, but shouldn't we let it run to bring in the folks we need, get on firm ground,

then through the TG's and their clubs, review ?

Just thoughts.

Thanks,

CC

 

[Artemus]

"Rifle is the least empathized firearm" in Wild Bunch always bothered me. This is just not the case, and I would challenge that with anyone that felt that way. We the shooters would not have bothered trying to get Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy for years if we didn't like shooting rifles. 

On 7/31/2024 at 4:01 PM, CC Moonshine said:

Besides, We are talking about the least considered firearm with the least round count in the game.

As for this round count comment, almost every single match I have shot in the Rifle round count is 7-10 per stage and the SG is 4-6. Maybe one 8 SG stage, but clearly not the lower round count. I would encourage people writing things like this shoot in some Wild Bunch matches before building these assumptions. Especially don't take advice from the biggest pair of whiners out of Texas, that I am convinced only shoot in WB matches to complain about them.

[CC Moonshine]

14 hours ago, Artemus said:

Rifle is the least empathized firearm" in Wild Bunch always bothered me. This is just not the case, and I would challenge that with anyone that felt that way. We the shooters would not have bothered trying to get Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy for years if we didn't like shooting rifles. 

Hello,

My statement is that "rifle is the least considered in WB" is absolutely true and has been stated countless times in posts by many veteran WB shooters.

No one is saying to do away with rifle, but no one that I've ever meant that is in WB says rifle is their favorite gun. It is always " I love shooting 1911 or I love 

shooting a stoked shotgun." I think we can all agree on that.

There is also zero debate in the fact that adding "all SASS main match rifles and shotguns " has already increased the ranks of WB and is moving in the right direction needed. 

TR and DB are their own exception to the rule, since they are a category choice like CC is for CAS. (BTW, both categories got complete support by Misty and the SASS Board during talks last year). 

My purpose for this thread was to hopefully invoke conversation and thought on the gains made already by WB becoming more inviting as a option for CAS shooters to try it with minimal time and money invested to enter the sport.

38 without power factor has allowed this to happen. By (at this time) adding back in a PF we would only slow or stop the interested shooters from easily grabbing what they have and a 1911 and trying it.

Down the road, if the clubs and TG's want a PF or a PF category, or a big bore  category, or any other plan, then by all means, they can have those conversations.

We are working hard with several shooters and clubs to help get WB growing even more and could really use the support of old and new WB shooters.

Have a great weekend everyone,

CC

[Boggus Deal]

On 8/1/2024 at 7:16 AM, CC Moonshine said:

 

EOT 2024 can't be the barometer for the future of WB. 

 

Why? Because it doesn’t fit your narrative? For 10-12 years, the national and world championships sell out. You change the rules and it doesn’t sell out, by a large margin. 
To me, that’s about as good a barometer as possible. Cause and effect. 
 

 

[wyliefox]

Page 11 of the 

WILD BUNCH ACTION SHOOTING™
ANALYSIS & ACTION PLAN
November 1, 2023
Effective date: January 1, 2024

MONITORING RESULTS
Testing and analyzing results will occur every quarter. Adjustments will be made accordingly. Adjustments in focus will be made as needed throughout the fiscal year.

Have there been any posted analysis or adjustments?  If so please send link, I have not seen any.

If the goal was to increase participation, from the beginning, in my opinion, the wrong approach was taken.

The basic structure of WB should have remained, NO changes.  Keep all those shooters.

Introduce an Open category.  "What" you say, another category.  YES.  More awards more recognition.  More participation.  More happy faces.

Open category is any SASS rifle & shotgun and any 1911 style pistol (yes 9mm).  Many clubs were already doing this.  Power Factor, for Open?  None.  The goal is participation.  Most, if not all reactive targets can be adjusted.  See what happens. Then, Testing and analyzing results will occur every quarter. Adjustments will be made accordingly.

Leave the historical WB alone, keep all those shooters'.

Use the Open category to increase participation.

Just my opinion.

 

[Jorge]

There is still a power factor for rifles; it is 60, as stated in the rules.  There is also the 1911 power factor, 150. 

Power Factor could still be checked at State and above matches, especially with the newer, more easily set up chronographs.

At the Club level, one would not need to meet power factor, whatever it might be, in order to "get shooters interested."  But should they go to a "Big" match, ammo might have to be changed.

Cowboy Action was always Revolver(s), shotgun and RIFLE.  Wild bunch Action Shooting should continue to be 1911, shotgun, and RIFLE.  As in CAS, the rifle shooting may be less difference from shooter to shooter, it is still important with the shooting as well as the transitions.

[TriggerHappy]

Just my 2 cents, after shooting the World Championship Wild Bunch Match at this years 2024 EOT, to me the match was nothing but a cowboy match with a 1911. There was no challenge to the match, target sets were the same as the Cowboy match, with maybe a couple of added Shotgun targets. Target sizes were big and close, with a couple of plates racks to engage. I believe SASS will continue to lose veteran and seasoned Wild Bunch shooters under the current rules. Whatever you are attempting to gain in new shooters, you will lose in the veterans, who loved and enjoyed the challenge and variety of targets and scenarios of the original basic style Wild Bunch matches. Wild Bunch is not a speed match as depicted in your comments in the new rules booklet, page 4, version 17.4, dated April 10, 2024. Maybe an Open Category or a Mild Bunch side match, would be a b etter place to start, to collect information and drive interest. Power factor, even for .38 ammo should still be required, as with weapons (1911) safety checks. It's suppose to be different than Cowboy Action, with a greater challenge. Not a match where lots of clean match pins are awarded for accuracy and speed. Let's get the 28, 35 & 42 pistol round count back in the game. Pistol only stages with lots of targets. Rifle round counts in the 5 to 10 per stage. Shotgun- 4, 6 & 8 rounds to a stage.  Poppers, swingers, action target sets. Again, just my 2 cents. The old way was better. I'm afraid the new way will end up being a Cowboy version of fast and furious with a 1911.

[CC Moonshine]

On 8/3/2024 at 8:19 PM, Boggus Deal said:

Why? Because it doesn’t fit your narrative? For 10-12 years, the national and world championships sell out. You change the rules and it doesn’t sell out, by a large margin. 
To me, that’s about as good a barometer as possible. Cause and effect. 

I'm short on time this week, so I'll be brief.

Please retain the FACT that WB was a failing venture (for 10-12 years) and it was only operating thanks to funds transferred from the CAS side to support it.

Without changes it would have been disbanded. This isn't new news, it has been part of the countless conversations for 2 years. So because a single event would sell out at 175 still equated to the fact that there wasn't nearly enough people playing the game throughout the year. Also, not enough clubs offering WB even at the monthly level to build up participation for state and above matches to host a full field of shooters or even offer it at all.

So a sell out at any EOT, National, or and other shoot prior still presented the fact that WB was not successful, no analysis (or base line) should be based on what wasn't working.  

2024 EOT was like a new start up venture and had it's soft launch so it becomes the new baseline or zero. It was also clear that many of the WB veterans that were upset that changes were implemented, boycotted EOT. Which was expected, while disappointing the people don't want it to make strides to grow and have a strong future.

All your ideas and suggestions can be taken to the TG's later this year and a conversation can take place.

Open categories were offered as a topic on more then one occasion and was strongly rejected by the prior WBROC.

I have no doubt that WB will see many more changes over the next few years (based on the TG's) some will be old ideas revived and some brand new. This will be great for WB (we hope). 

For those that are still upset about the changes, keep in mind that we didn't change the way any of you can play, you can still shoot your 150+ PF .45 loads. No change is permanent and all things can be adjusted in the future as voted on by the TG's.

Just think about the future, get clubs active in WB, become a WBTG, be constructive in the process. We all want this to work.

Got to go, have a good week,

CC

[Deacon KC]

Okay, I will put my 2 cents in here. I want to see WB grow. I hope that it becomes SO popular that one day we can see Zoot Shooting become a category. As a Zoot shooter I saw that perhaps it greatest draw was allowing the huge variety of firearms that could be shot.

That being said, realize that I LOVE the 1911 and 1911A1. I have 6 of the beasts, ranging from a correct 1917 US marked 1911 to my daily carry gun a Scandium frame Commander. However, one way I believe we could make WB more enticing is opening up the handgun choices. In CAS we see Peacemakers, Remingtons, Schofields, Opentop Conversions, Bisleys, etc. This lets lots of folks shoot the guns they always dreamed of. Opening up WB Pistol to guns designed and used before the end of WW1 would encourage someone to break out their 1917 Colts or S&W revolvers, a Luger or Broomhandle Mauser. Use the same power factors as CAS to keep it simple. A shooter using a 1917 S&W or Colt with full moon clips could certainly be competitive. And if someone wanted to use a Tommygun, limit the magazines to 10 rounds.

I understand that the title of our organization is SINGLE Action Shooting Society, but double action guns were common before the end of the 19th Century. Since WB is based on a movie set in 1916, those guns were certainly popular in this time frame.

[CC Moonshine]

On 8/11/2024 at 5:07 PM, Deacon KC said:

Okay, I will put my 2 cents in here. I want to see WB grow. I hope that it becomes SO popular that one day we can see Zoot Shooting become a category. As a Zoot shooter I saw that perhaps it greatest draw was allowing the huge variety of firearms that could be shot.

That being said, realize that I LOVE the 1911 and 1911A1. I have 6 of the beasts, ranging from a correct 1917 US marked 1911 to my daily carry gun a Scandium frame Commander. However, one way I believe we could make WB more enticing is opening up the handgun choices. In CAS we see Peacemakers, Remingtons, Schofields, Opentop Conversions, Bisleys, etc. This lets lots of folks shoot the guns they always dreamed of. Opening up WB Pistol to guns designed and used before the end of WW1 would encourage someone to break out their 1917 Colts or S&W revolvers, a Luger or Broomhandle Mauser. Use the same power factors as CAS to keep it simple. A shooter using a 1917 S&W or Colt with full moon clips could certainly be competitive. And if someone wanted to use a Tommygun, limit the magazines to 10 rounds.

I understand that the title of our organization is SINGLE Action Shooting Society, but double action guns were common before the end of the 19th Century. Since WB is based on a movie set in 1916, those guns were certainly popular in this time frame.

 

Hi Deacon,

Thanks for the input. 

During the past 2 plus years of conversations, meetings, think-tanks, and general opinion gathering, other guns, categories, rules, and styles were talked about often.

I personally (personally completely stressed here, lol) love the idea of more handgun choices for sure. I'm of the opinion that the more options presented to play will allow people to "bring what you already own" like grandpa's old "fill in the blank" from WW I . How that would all work (new categories, etc...) would all be TG and ROC business to sort and provide to SASS HQ for review. So there is absolutely opportunity here. 

Here's the beautiful part of all of this, we now have several dozen WB-TGs and more every week (some veteran WB and some are new WB) signing up, we have several new to WB clubs nation wide that are starting to offer WB in some format and with the announcement pending for release a new WBROC. We will see allot of conversations not to far in the future on dozens of topics with the TG's and in turn, they should be talking to their club members to see what they want!

I encourage you to talk with club members, TG's, Veteran and new shooters, to start people thinking about options for all things Wild Bunch! 

If you are not a TG (I apologize for not knowing I don't have a current list of names), but think about becoming one and talk to your clubs in your area. If they don't have a WB program, they can reach out to Ruby Ruthless at SASS HQ for more information.

As for ZOOT Shooting, I have some CAS friends that have done it and really had a great time. I've seen video's of it, but haven't had the chance to see it in person. 

But would like to go see it for sure !

Have a super balance of the week,

CC

 

[Blastin Brad]

I just read all of this... here are a few of my thoughts.

1.  I talked to CC Top (now CC Moonshine) several times thru out this change.  I didn't like the idea of the changes then and let him know.  we talked for hours over the possible changes.  I understood that the numbers were down and we needed more participation.  The Ohio State WB match went from high 20s maybe low 30s shooting to 8 prior to the changes.  Eight shooters at a state match... yes we needed help and things needed to change..

2.  I was all for an "Open" category that allowed 1911s in 9mm, any rifle, and any shotgun.  I didn't want to compete against a 9mm 1911 as they are inherently faster than a 45acp.  The rifle and shotgun change didn't really bother me as someone shooting a SxS was not going to outdo a stoked 1897.   the question came up if you could win the "overall" match if you shot this category.  That all depends on what you want to do... grow wild bunch or grow shooters to enter what we all considered the "real" categories at the time.  Yep, we are trying to get more shooters in.

3.  I must admit that when asked about the rifle I said it didn't make a difference to me cause I could not tell the difference shooting my main match 38 or my WB 45.  Mine are both the exact same rifle, just of different caliber.  Do I shoot the 38 now?  yes I do, it's cheaper and that rifle runs a little better...

4.  What I thought we lost... well I liked the targets a little smaller and further out.  I liked the challenge and we have lost some of that.  However, there is no reason we cannot have some targets further out or smaller... as the rules say "typically" the placement is. 

5.  We now have new rules.  Lets play the game and enjoy it.  We can work on changing the rules as we go.  The addition of TR and DB classes is interesting to say the least, and I'm interested to see if they grow!  Now that we have the new rules, lets get behind the game and make it better, whining here is not going to help.

6.  Last.. I've worked with the folks in Historic 3 gun.  I'm sorry they walked away from SASS, I think they jumped the gun leaving, but that is their prerogative.  They lost me when they started talking and running an "open round count" for the shoots.... I personally am not a fan of that.

Hope to see you all at a WB match in the future!

[El Chapo]

What I really wonder is why more wasn't considered from other shooting sports.  Things like allowing every 1911, allowing plastic basepads, and having an open round count with a certain number of hits per steel target seem like no brainers to me.  I can think of a few other suggestions I have as well that come from other sports that will not sit well with traditional cowboy shooters but will potentially draw people from other shooting disciplines.  I don't even understand how the 38 rifles are controversial, and if that's an issue, it should be adjusted with power factor requirements, not bullet diameter.  Maybe the simplest suggestion that I can give is to stop worrying about appearances so much and focus on the marksmanship.  That is what shooting matches are about after all.