Rule Changes

[Flying W Ramrod]

46 minutes ago, Silvertip said:

Hello Norfleet yes that holster obviously is fine but I have seen a lot that don’t cover the trigger guard.

ST

mine doesn't. The Queen's doesn't and it's a mernickle rig.

Lots of them don't.

 

[marshal stone]

On 11/7/2023 at 12:49 PM, Flying W Ramrod said:

mine doesn't. The Queen's doesn't and it's a mernickle rig.

Lots of them don't.

 

I've got 3 different Mernickle 1911 holsters that were bought for WB, all three cover the trigger guard.

4 if you count my everyday carry holster.

Marshal Stone

[J. Frank Norfleet]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:22 AM, J. Frank Norfleet said:

USPSA rules 5.2.7.4

"A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger while holstered."
 

Hey everyone,

Re-read the USPSA rule above. The IDPA rules have "cover the trigger guard." That to me leaves a lot to interpretation. Why do they want to cover the trigger guard? So no one can activate the trigger. USPSA is a lot clearer when it says, " . . . completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger while holstered."  That wording saves a lot of grief when dealing with anal people.

JFN

Edited November 9, 2023 by J. Frank Norfleet

[Caboose]

On 11/2/2023 at 4:16 PM, Flying W Ramrod said:

Folks, concerning the "Condition 1" idea.

Every shooting sport, that utilizes Condition 1 to start, require the holster cover the entire trigger guard.

This is to keep the finger off the trigger when drawing your pistol

If we go Condition 1, everyone will have to get a new holster.

Just FYI

Not everyone, the early rule book for WBAS required the trigger guard be completely covered and that’s the way I made mine and a couple others back then.

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

The clubs where I shoot local WB matches have used what some call "Mild Bunch" rules for a long time, in an attempt to get more participation -  any SASS legal rifle, any centerfire 1911, 87 shotguns OK, no power factors.  And, it worked!  We had a lot more shooters come out than if we had gone strictly by WBAS rules.  The new rules make almost all of that official & makes the double legal (which several potential shooters asked us to do, but we just offered to loan our 97s or 12s).  If the intent is to increase participation, then the rule changes will likely succeed.

All that said, I have always used equipment & ammo that conformed fully to WBAS rules & will continue to do so.  I have always enjoyed "old school" WB so why should I change?

Holler

[Jack Spade]

23 hours ago, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

The clubs where I shoot local WB matches have used what some call "Mild Bunch" rules for a long time, in an attempt to get more participation -  any SASS legal rifle, any centerfire 1911, 87 shotguns OK, no power factors.  And, it worked!  We had a lot more shooters come out than if we had gone strictly by WBAS rules.  The new rules make almost all of that official & makes the double legal (which several potential shooters asked us to do, but we just offered to loan our 97s or 12s).  If the intent is to increase participation, then the rule changes will likely succeed.

All that said, I have always used equipment & ammo that conformed fully to WBAS rules & will continue to do so.  I have always enjoyed "old school" WB so why should I change?

Holler

I am with you Holler, and shoot with you, and will continue to use equipment that meets WBAS rules.  I don't really feel like letting people use other equipment is much if any advantage but if the people who shoot at that club feel different then just add an open category where you can shoot anything.  So you add the cost of a couple more ribbons, if it brings in more shooters that's a big plus. 

[Doc Holloman]

I think my biggest gripe with the rule changes  is that it might eventually lead to "rifle not last" in Wild Bunch.

 

[Two Dot]

Can’t see where we are not there now.

[wyliefox]

IMHO, rifle not last is an indication that the TO needs replacing.

TO's do your job!!!  hold the timer to pick-up the rounds.

Our club has a few shooters that use 38SPL mouse-farts in rifle (including me).  By holding the timer correctly they are ALL recorded.

I have seen many TO's holding the timer low and away from the shooter.  Really!!  Yeah, mouse-farts will NOT be recorded.

[Flying W Ramrod]

10 hours ago, wyliefox said:

IMHO, rifle not last is an indication that the TO needs replacing.

TO's do your job!!!  hold the timer to pick-up the rounds.

Our club has a few shooters that use 38SPL mouse-farts in rifle (including me).  By holding the timer correctly they are ALL recorded.

I have seen many TO's holding the timer low and away from the shooter.  Really!!  Yeah, mouse-farts will NOT be recorded.

Which is one of the reasons why the .38 should not be allowed at state or higher matches 

[wyliefox]

2 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Which is one of the reasons why the .38 should not be allowed at state or higher matches 

Respectfully I disagree.

It is the reason to have skilled TO's.  Why would a state match or higher want a adequate-at-best TO? 

BTW I am not commenting on allowing 38SPL.  That is for a separate post..

[Two Dot]

The problem with your idea is that at larger matches there is no way to guaranty that every t.o. will be top notch. Like spotters, not all t.o. s are created equal. Another consideration is the buildings or props that make it extremely difficult to be in position to pick up light .38 rifle loads.

[Doc Holloman]

16 hours ago, wyliefox said:

IMHO, rifle not last is an indication that the TO needs replacing.

TO's do your job!!!  hold the timer to pick-up the rounds.

Our club has a few shooters that use 38SPL mouse-farts in rifle (including me).  By holding the timer correctly they are ALL recorded.

I have seen many TO's holding the timer low and away from the shooter.  Really!!  Yeah, mouse-farts will NOT be recorded.

Well, this weekend I will test it after our club cowboy match.  I will be shooting lightly loaded 125/147/158gr loads at both enclosed and open stages to see if out timers pick them up.  (I don't have any 105gr bullets, but the 125s are laded pretty light -- 2.5gr of Titegroup.)  

Somehow I don't think that 177/180gr rule is going to end up being applied to .38s.  Don't know anyone that loads bullets  that heavy.

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

4 hours ago, wyliefox said:

Respectfully I disagree.

It is the reason to have skilled TO's.  Why would a state match or higher want a adequate-at-best TO? 

BTW I am not commenting on allowing 38SPL.  That is for a separate post..

The only way "rifle may not be last" will happen is if .38's are allowed. 

The ability of the TO is NOT the issue here.

[wyliefox]

2 hours ago, Doc Holloman said:

Well, this weekend I will test it after our club cowboy match.  I will be shooting lightly loaded 125/147/158gr loads at both enclosed and open stages to see if out timers pick them up.  (I don't have any 105gr bullets, but the 125s are laded pretty light -- 2.5gr of Titegroup.)  

Somehow I don't think that 177/180gr rule is going to end up being applied to .38s.  Don't know anyone that loads bullets  that heavy.

 

Excellent!!!  If possible include photo of where the timer was located.  Especially if it fails to record the shot.  Also, ifm possible, see what it takes to get a 150PF rifle to fail.  My mouse farts are 105 gr with 2.5 grains of clays.  

Edited November 13, 2023 by wyliefox

[Doc Holloman]

Update on .38 rifles for Wild Bunch.  Will it require “Rifle not last?”.   I had planned to test my .38 rifle  against shot timer after today’s Tejas Caballeros Cowboy match, but circumstances made it unnecessary. 

I ended up as a TO for our posse and was able to observe whether the timer was picking up .38 Special rifle shots over several stages.  In  short, the answer is “sometimes.”  Interestingly, while the load being used was important, and to a lesser degree, whether the stage was open or enclosed was a factor, perhaps just as important was barrel length.   Two shooters back to back on the same semi-enclosed stage, the first shooting 105 grain oner 2.5 gr of Trailboss, the other shooting 158gr over 5gr of Trailboss.  Most, but not all of the first shooters shots were picked up.  But, counter intuitively, the second shooter’s shots, with the heavier load, were not picked up at all. The big difference  appears to be barrel length.  The first shooter was using a 73 with a 20 inch barrel, while the second was shooting a Marlin with a 24 inch barrel.  As another data point, I was shooting 147 gr over 2.6gr of Titegroup, using my 73 with a 19 inch barrel and the other TO said the timer picked up all of my shots.

I was taking care to hold the timer at shoulder height, as close to the shooter as I could without crowding him. 

Bottom line, the timer would not reliably and consistently pick up the .38 rifle shots, even with heavy loads.

[Jvs4570gmail.com]

SASS is saying that these new rules reflect on conversations and meetings with the Ambassadors and general members.  Do we have an actual count of how many Ambassadors were in favor of doing away with the rifle power factor?  

The observation was made that our aging membership will spell the end of SASS.  While the up close and fast targets work for the new and aging shooters it does little to bring in the younger shooters.  I look at the other shooting sports, that we share the range with, and they are getting the younger shooters but still keeping the older shooters.  Our club will routinely get 45-60 shooters for USPSA and Steel Challenge matches.  If we seriously want to attract some of those shooters we need to look at our condition 3 start and not moving with a chambered round rules.  I don't see us going to 8" plates at 20 yards but keeping a balance of speed and accuracy will at least make us attractive to other shooters.  SASS has the reputation of just being repetitive, 10-10-4, and not being enough of a challenge.  I had hoped that offering an open class would bring out other shooters to try WB but we have mainly promoted it to CAS shooters and not to outside disciples.  I don't see where SASS has promoted WB to shooters, outside of CAS.  I actually haven't seen a SASS promotion of WB period.

 

[Jvs4570gmail.com]

On 11/9/2023 at 10:43 AM, Caboose said:

Not everyone, the early rule book for WBAS required the trigger guard be completely covered and that’s the way I made mine and a couple others back then.

It also was required to cover the entire ejection port.  That rule was modified when they realized that the Evil Roy rig didn't cover it, completely. 

[Jvs4570gmail.com]

On 11/10/2023 at 7:02 AM, Hollifer A. Dollar said:

The clubs where I shoot local WB matches have used what some call "Mild Bunch" rules for a long time, in an attempt to get more participation -  any SASS legal rifle, any centerfire 1911, 87 shotguns OK, no power factors.  And, it worked!  We had a lot more shooters come out than if we had gone strictly by WBAS rules.  The new rules make almost all of that official & makes the double legal (which several potential shooters asked us to do, but we just offered to loan our 97s or 12s).  If the intent is to increase participation, then the rule changes will likely succeed.

All that said, I have always used equipment & ammo that conformed fully to WBAS rules & will continue to do so.  I have always enjoyed "old school" WB so why should I change?

Holler

I'm glad that you had success with offering Mild Bunch, but after, over a year, of offering it we have yet to have any shooter take advantage of it. We even offered to allow any pump shotgun and any handgun, just to get folks to try it.  We have had several CAS shooters add WB to their match schedule but they've all had the correct equipment.

[PeeWee 15785]

Open category will be outlined in the WBAS Shooters Handbook and RO guide for reference and will allow any single stack
1911 (No PF), any SASS legal rifle in .32 caliber or larger, and any SASS legal shotgun

 

Does this mean the short barreled 1911's is OK?

16 and 20 gage?

.32 H7R MAG IN A RIFLE?

I know everyone is talking about the .38 but doing an Open category may let me play a little longer.

[Doc Holloman]

On 1/14/2024 at 2:40 PM, PeeWee 15785 said:

Open category will be outlined in the WBAS Shooters Handbook and RO guide for reference and will allow any single stack
1911 (No PF), any SASS legal rifle in .32 caliber or larger, and any SASS legal shotgun

 

Does this mean the short barreled 1911's is OK?

16 and 20 gage?

.32 H7R MAG IN A RIFLE?

I know everyone is talking about the .38 but doing an Open category may let me play a little longer.

Yes, but.  Open category is only sanctioned for local matches.   But within that, commanders and officer models are good, as are 9mms .40s 10mms, and .38 Supers.  

Within traditional and Modern categories, the 1911 rules appear to be unchanged.  Any SASS legal shotgun is OK, so 20 and 16 gauge are allowed (had my eye on a used 20 gauge Model 12 the other day.  HMMMM) .  Your .32  rifle should be OK.   I'm guessing that with the opening up of the rifles allowed, that "rifle not last" will become the rule. 

 

[Artemus]

5 hours ago, Doc Holloman said:

 I'm guessing that with the opening up of the rifles allowed, that "rifle not last" will become the rule. 

 

Especially since PF is set at 60. It's going to change the game and prevent ending with a rifle. Which is a real bummer, I liked the flexibility in WB, it helped break up the monotony. Especially for those that liked moving to the left, it helped them out some.

[Boomstick Bruce]

So, to stay competitive against 38 mousefarts, I'd need a 24" barrel on my 45colt 92, 141gn .454 round balls in 45colt cases loaded to 450fps (that the timer can't hear) then write a whole match with "rifle MUST be last"?

 

Challenge accepted

 

 

Edited July 22 by Boomstick Bruce

[El Chapo]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:08 AM, Jvs4570gmail.com said:

I'm glad that you had success with offering Mild Bunch, but after, over a year, of offering it we have yet to have any shooter take advantage of it. We even offered to allow any pump shotgun and any handgun, just to get folks to try it.  We have had several CAS shooters add WB to their match schedule but they've all had the correct equipment.

I would have done it a long time ago if they had offered that rule.  I was putting off having to remove my magwell, remove my fiber optic sight and install a plain one, obtain flush fitting magazines, buy another rifle just to shoot another caliber, and buying a pump shotgun when I shoot CAS with a sxs.   Now at least I only needed to do the first few things to be able to shoot.  If I could have used my 870 police (wood stock, basic as it gets) that alone might have pushed me over the edge to try it.