Garrison Joe

It would be unacceptable. Same as a pistol that is one ounce under the limit, or a power factor that is one-tenth low. There are no tolerances specified for the rules that set a limit. It is a hard limit. AND YOU WERE TOLD WRONG. Pushing limits is a dangerous hobby. Apply a "safety" margin in case some match does not have quite the calibration that your test equipment had. Good luck, GJ

I'll start you on this journey with a couple of easy principles: Four targets in a bank - that lets a continuous Nevada sweep work well. 1-2-3-4-3-2-1 is a magazine full. Single, double, triple taps if you want. Three targets in a bank - a two-reverse continuous Nevada sweep 1-2-3-2-1-2-3 is a magazine full. Add multiple taps as well. Five targets don't work well for a Nevada sweep until you are willing to shoot 35 shots at that one set of 5 targets. (At least as far as my thinking has gone.) What have you folks figured out?

Next excuses for not shooting WB - I need to shoot my .38 special rifle and light loads. And Reduce PF to 100 because the 1911 hurts my hands, and I have a 45 GAP or 9mm I want to shoot. Which, by the way, is a Glock striker plastic piece. I predict we will also have puzzles trying to figure out fairly simple sweeps and sequences in enough variety to not get boring, and still not be interrupting sequences - "when you get to 14 shots, stop" instead of getting to the end of a bank of targets. Would someone like to publish a list of the sequences they believe work smoothly with 7-shot mag changes so all the match directors don't have to ALL start reinventing the sweep universe from scratch? Now's the time for local clubs to be testing and developing some, so we don't get to WR and find a nightmare of strange patterns. As this thread's title says, and it's no longer a joke - now it's a directive and homework assignment - Think of the new sweeps

Every gun likes a different cast bullet load. Maybe it's time to say that again. Rifles are a lot more picky about cast bullets than they are jacketed. If you expect a hum-dinger load in the first 20 loads you try, you may be expecting too much. Some folks work on loads for a year. Anyway, best of luck. "That's why they call it shooting, not hitting." - to adapt an old fishing joke. With a 6.5 Swede, if you are up over 1600 FPS and going sideways, for sure cut back powder. The load Your recipe that I used for Accurate 5744 is just about the starting load in Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 for a 150 grain slug in 6.5 Swede. As also is the 4227 load. And both are shown at 1600 FPS or real close. It's just that some loads just don't work well in some guns...

Yep, ask the shooter to run it again. You didn't say HOW the TO knew the timer "didn't record all the shots", but if he ran back through the entire shot string and only had perhaps an 80% capture of shot count, then he sure would be justified in demanding shooter run again. This brings up a real good point, though. The TO MUST be looking at the timer on the last couple of shots to make sure the last shot got recorded. If the TO had done that on this scenario, TO would have seen that he was not capturing the shots and would have called it out as the shooter completed the stage. It's happened to me - I have had to tell a shooter: "Sorry, pard, but the timer was not picking up your last several shots. We'll get a different timer and I'll run you through again. But right now, we do not have a valid time for you." It does happen. But you also want to make sure it's not the TO's fault because he's not getting the timer into a good position to hear the shots, too. (or a bad timer, or a bad battery) No need for this to happen again for the next few shooters or even later stages. Good luck, GJ

Well, I'd repeat: When you get all the right parts together, a cast bullet load in the 6.5 Swede is a sweet heart. Otherwise, it can be a heart breaker. (ducking). I've never shot Hi-tek coated bullets in anything. So, those are a mystery to me. I've never seen top shooters in the Cast Bullet Association talk about shooting coated bullets in their published match results. I've seen my 6.5 Swede and a couple of same model of rifles from fellow BAMM shooters here in Albuquerque area (whom you probably know at least by name) shoot 16 Brinnell hardness non-quench-hardened bullets with lubes like White Label XLOX 2500+, Carnuba Red, or conventional NRA formula ALOX shoot under 2 MOA at least out to 300 yards. My favorite load right now is 17.5 grains of 4227 (checked) under the Lyman 266673 bullet (weighing about 150 grains with GC and lube). Make sure you have scrubbed ALL the copper fouling out of barrel. Clean until patches are white. Check barrel groove diameter that it matches bullets well. Check for good action to wood contact. Seat slugs out so that they don't have to jump far to hit start of rifling. All the standard things needed to work up good loads..... Maybe there'd be a match we both are at if you'd like to double check against some of my ammo in your gun? :) Happy to help. A fellow WB shooter was out at EOT this summer, and I'm afraid that when I loaned him that Swede and ammo and he shot it pretty well, that he got hooked immediately on BAMM. The behavior of your 5744 loads would suggest either severe fouling or excess muzzle velocity, especially if you are shooting up your chrono. Stepping velocity down below 1600 would have more chance of finding accuracy than pushing it above 1600, I would guess. Those long nosed slugs just don't have the strength in the nose to prevent slumping over as they go down barrel. So the story goes.

Don't know how long the MIM fire control parts hold up. Mine didn't stay in after the first 5 round function check. Tool steel replacements installed and fitted immediately. ;D

Nope, dovetail cut right through the tenon and you have plenty of steel to hold a front sight in place. If he doesn't like doing it, I can suggest a gunsmith I've used for 1911 work to do exactly that, and he fabricated a nice front sight of my specified thickness (0.140") to fit the 10-8 rear sight notch well. Contact Mars Armament in Salt Lake City. http://www.marsguns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=36&sort=20a&page=3 They did one for my Colt Series 70 five years ago (old small tenon), and sight has never moved or wobbled or interfered with slide operation. No rebluing needed. And they only needed the slide sent to them, so it turned around quick. Good luck, GJ

Each mil rifle seems to like a different cast bullet load. But if you look in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4, and look for a 170-200 bullet design, and think powders between 2400 and 3031 burn rates, and load to about 1500-1800 FPS, you can usually find a gem in there someplace. I've not yet got an '06 load I like well enough to shoot BAM matches, but I'm getting closer with a 200 grain bullet and some Reloder 7 powder. (That's why I shoot a 6.5 Swede or an 8mm Mauser (Yugo) in BAM matches). I'd rather shoot 4759 powder, as it just loves to push cast bullets down range, but I'm afraid to shoot up my last bottle in case IMR never wises up and makes it again. Here's an interesting place to find loads that worked well enough to win their Cast Bullet Association military rifle matches recently: https://castbulletassoc.org/match-results The Lyman design 311299 or 314299 usually shoots real well for folks. Night Owl Enterprises also cuts a very nice copy of that mold. Usually weighs about 200 grain in linotype or Lyman #2 alloy. Here's what that looks like: http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=30_357&products_id=1706&osCsid=jdjqdggm0mssv6tjlfar2tmqg3 Good luck, GJ

test post to see if db errors have been fixed yet....12:02 PM MDT Ok, now that I can post something again, The Type 38 Arisaka rifle uses 6.5x50SR cartridge. It's not very easily available anymore at a reasonable price. Midway has some Hornady at about $43 for 20. And it's all jacketed ammo. No commercial lead-bullet ammo commonly sold - but lots of BAM matches require cast bullets only. The Arisaka uses a very shallow rifling (Metford design) that is fine for jacketed rounds, but not very accurate for cast bullet loads. Lots of folks moan about how bad the accuracy is on the Arisaka rifles with cast bullets. So, although the gun is priced cheap, unless you want to be paying premium prices when buying ammo and fighting to get good accuracy with a 6.5 mm cast bullet (hard enough to get good accuracy with) in a gun that is known to have problems with cast bullet loads, I'd recommend another gun. Now, if you have matches to go to that allow jacketed ammo, perhaps you won't be disappointed. Some of the Yugoslavian Mausers are still circulating like the 24 or 24/47 models, which shoot cast bullet loads VERY well and commercial 8 mm Mauser ammo is much more readily available for. Or the Russian Mosin-Nagants, for which some 7.62x54R mm mil surplus ammo can sometimes be found. Both are quite a bit cheaper than a Springfield 03, 03A3, or even most German-made Mausers. And lots of folks are pretty happy with Swiss K-31 rifles (7.5x55 ammo).

;)

Welcome to the fun! Sure, wear any hat that is of or before WW I times, if you are fearful that folks will be picky. The rules only prohibit two types of hats - Shady Brady feathery hats, and ball caps. Several folks wear a cavalry stetson. I wear an Indian Campaign slouch hat. You don't have to wear a hat at all, though it does keep the sun and the brass out of your face. In practice, if it looks good, wear it. No one has grounds for grousing about it.

And, several BAMM shooters use bullets from Norm Purcella - see this thread of yours a few months ago: http://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=2236.0 I do not KNOW if he makes any 6.5 mm bullets. They are not-so-much a common stock item.

Well, not casting limits your choices a LOT. First, find out what your barrel groove diameter is by slugging it. You can look up instructions all over the internet or the SASS Wire for how to do that. Second, find a bullet supplier who is willing to size at or up to 2 thousandths over groove diameter. Take a reasonable guess at the slug that will work best. I like the Lyman 266673 design myself (in a M96 Swedish rifle made in 1911), which runs about 150 grains in #2 alloy, for me. I like a bullet at about 16 Brinnell hardness or slightly higher. If you can find a feller who lubes with the older NRA (ALOX) soft formula lube it will usually shoot better than the newer hard wax lubes. Also reasonable choices for a design that you may find commercial casters making - RCBS 6.5-140 gr-SIL, NOE 270-163 gr-FN, or a Saeco 62264 (140 gr). Third, load with 2400, 5744, Reloder 7 or 4198 powder so that you get 1600 FPS on the chronograph. Beg borrow or steal a chrono, it's that important with the 6.5 Swede. Because of the VERY FAST twist rate set for 156 grain military FMJ bullets (long for their diameter) for a muzzle velocity of 2,379 FPS, the barrels are touchy with "normal" looking cast bullets. Much over 1600 FPS on a cast bullet in the Swede, and most folks can't keep the bullet shooting tight groups. And you want a kinda skinny nose on the slug so you don't have to seat the slug base deeper than the base of the neck - bore riding designs can have chambering problems. When you get all the right parts together, a cast bullet load in the 6.5 Swede is a sweet heart. Otherwise, it can be a heart breaker. For sources I'll start you with a list of some potential suppliers: Montana Bullet Works - https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product-category/rifle/?filter_caliber=264 Gardners - http://gardnerscache.com/ Moyers - www.moyerscastbullets.com/rifle.html Western - http://westernbullet.com/2665mmcaliber.html But, I endorse none of them specifically, as I cast my own.

+1 for SBC's reply. Yes, slide can be eased down. Hammer can not. The important TEST is that there is no live round in the chamber after you have cleared the gun. Finely tuned 1911's are not going to like having the slide dropped hard on an empty chamber. It wears the sear and hammer notch, and leads to hammer following down even when charging rounds into the chamber during normal firing.

It gets hard to build a good .45 auto load for a standard-built 1911 down below about 140 PF. You would be talking about a bullseye type gun with light springs. The original concepts were to keep highly modified guns out of the sport to avoid pricey technology races. I have greatly appreciated that approach. But, a 9 MM would be much easier for folks with aches and pains to handle. I could see a minor class with a PF floor around 105 or so. It won't be easy finding any commercial lead bullet ammo like that, though, so shooters would still be handloading their ammo. It is already being done at several WB matches. Call around and see,,,,

HJ is talking daily shooter-check scoresheets, posted on the wall at Founders as shot each day. Yes, all those were posted as raw time, penalties and total time. Most of the post here is about the final times posted to the EOT web site and used to make the presentation of awards. THAT was published as stage points only. That is where the consternation rises way up into the throat. ;D Good luck, GJ

How many sporters you suppose still have the mil sights on them? That's the big problem. Most were upgraded substantially to either scope only or a peep receiver sight. Makes them a whole new category.

For a governor sweep, I'd set 5 targets. 1 1 3 1 1 Three governors between the bars. Or Set the center target back 2 paces from the rest of the array. Then ... Three governors behind bars.

The usual Wild Bodie Tom spring and follower to allow 6 shots in the tube is made for the Win 97 (specifically, the IAC imports need it the most). If you need one for the 97, see Uniquetek - http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1413 But Tom also now makes a spring and weighted follower for the Mod 12 - Uniquetek - http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1528 And, yep, Nu-Line has lots of Model 12 parts and even does service work on them. But, if all you need is a new mag spring, the Rem 870 mag spring works fine and is easy to find. Shorten to hang 4 inches of the uncompressed spring out of the end of the mag tube when no end cap on the tube. (Then take that M12 and go shoot a few Southern Illinois hickory-fed fox squirrels for me, will ya? Yummm, chicken-fried) Good luck, GJ

Once again, the 1911 shows that it runs ammo very differently depending upon what gun you're shooting it through. Lyman handbook shows a 230 grain slug loaded on top of 4.0 WST to make 775 FPS GS got: This reinforces what WB shooters have known for a good while - You MUST check your 1911 loads over a chrono at similar conditions to the match you will be shooting, or else you need to at least try to hit a 165 PF so you will have some wiggle room when you get to a match! Good luck, GJ

"Standard" 20" barrels on my three IAC 97's. Love 'em. Good luck, GJ

There is a third way that I have proposed to the WB committee that guarantees (mathematically) to keep the category rankings straight and still allow some hope of declaring an overall champ who makes sense. Do the stage point scoring on each category (separate from all others). Take the top male and top female shooter in each category and figure a "fraction of best shooter" total times. Multiply each (male or female) shooter's stage points in category by that (male or female) adjusting factor and compare all the adjusted stage points. Put all shooters into that adjusted point order. You have an overall that keeps all shooters in a category in their same order, but allows comparisons between the various categories. It went no where last few times I suggested it. Oh well. It would have made for a clean result this EOT, I am pretty sure, but I don't have access to the total time numbers for shooters to actually check it out. It is a REAL abomination that we do not publish the stage times for each shooter, just the stage points. As long as we continue that practice, no one but the match director and scoring folks will ever know how to do this better!

Hey ya, Back 40. You didn't warn me that Shell Stuffer and you were out at EOT to CLEAN UP on us western boys! ;D Ok, the range of serial numbers on 1903 Springfields where the heat treat was not real well controlled, and some receivers end up brittle, was below ABOUT 810,000 on a gun made at Springfield Armory. From a pretty definitive source of that info (CMP): http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=81770 Temperature control via pyrometer rather than eyeball started at serial 632,826. I'd feel good trusting this number to be the low end of what I would use. This was from: ttps://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulletin.net/forum/military-rifles/109-springfield-1903-serial-number-date-ranges And Rock Island Armory guns were considered weak/brittle below below 285,507. IF you feel compelled to shoot a low serial number, you might want to keep pressures down at about 40,000 psi. Note that the below-810,000 or 285,506 serial numbers are not allowed to be fired in CMP authorized matches. Good luck, GJ

(A lot of this confusion for the initial scores released from EOT was due to data entry error. Watch out for tempests in teapots.)