Garrison Joe

Thanks for that bit of data, Goatneck. I've not shot a poly coated bullet, and from things I've read on Cast Boolits site, don't think I will for rifle loads. Too many molds to try and not enough time.... ;D Good luck, GJ

170 grain bullet - Wasn't legal in the 2017 or earlier versions of the rules, either. So, doesn't matter if you haven't read 2018 version. 180 grain is the minimum, and a 185 nominal slug is the lightest any reasonable person would want to load, (in case you get a batch that are running lighter than nominal weight, you will still pass the bullet weigh-in if you are selected for a Power Factor check). Good luck, GJ

Cast Boolits forum has a great article on "The Load" that works for most bolt action military guns of the 20th century. It's here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?13425-Cast-Bullet-Loads-for-Military-Rifles-Article The article is long, but the summary is a set of four different levels of power: 1. 125 grain plain based "small game/gallery" 900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent pistol powder. 2. 150 grain plain based "100-yard target/small game", 1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grains of Bullseye or equivalent pistol powder. 3. 170-180 grain gas checked "200 yard target", 1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grains of Alliant 2400 or equivalent. 4. 180-200 grain gas-checked "deer/600 yard target", 1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grains of Reloder7 or equivalent. I will certify that the #3 load is a sweet shooting target load, and is quite good for all the bolt action rifles I've tried it in, from 6.5 Swede to 30-06 to 8 mm Mauser. And it will work with a slight powder weight reduction with a lighter (150 grain) slug. Keep velocity below about 1600 FPS and almost any gun will shoot good groups and not lead the barrel. There's tons more info in the C.E. Harrison article that is at the URL. 4759 is a great powder for cast bullet loads - except you cannot buy it anymore. Stopped production about the end of 2015 and ALL the store stock has disappeared. IF you decide to shoot cast bullet loads, you will normally need to scrub all the copper fouling out of the barrel before trying to get reasonable groups with cast bullets. The poly-coated bullets may be a little more forgiving and let you switch between jacketed and poly loads - I've not heard results from anyone on that point. Good luck, GJ

About the only big match that is semi-lost brass is Winter Range, but if you are willing to stay until folks are done shooting each day, you used to be able grab a "suitable amount" of spent brass from what fell on the ground during each day when it is cleaned up by fellow shooters. In 2016 and 2017, WR was able to get enough Boy Scouts to turn out after school on week days that they did go to lost brass (with a sell-back which didn't work all that well). So, for Winter Range, assume you will either lose the WB brass or pay more than the range brass is worth (perhaps you consider it a good cause). Almost ALL other WB matches, large and small, are picked up as the shooter goes through. EOT WB is shagged after each shooter by some of the local Albuquerque area Boy Scouts (and tips that go to camping supplies and equipment are willingly accepted). There is more brass to be shagged in this game than in Cowboy, but also more of the WB posse seems willing and able to shag brass as we go. EVERY monthly or state match in NM and AZ I have ever been to shags as the shooter finishes the stage. So, I'd say what you have been told is not close to most WB reality. :o And worrying about losing brass at WR is among the least of my worries, considering that small cost in the big scheme of WR expenses. I have heard of a few clubs that have lots of props, and they hold off brass recovery until end of day, and they jointly pick up and split the brass. I'm not sure they save much time doing that. And it's less satisfying to each shooter. Good luck, GJ

There is NO reason I know of that, when folks developed the Stage Point Scoring reports in a couple of the software scoring programs, they left out the raw time, misses and penalty data. They made a BAD mistake when they did, because it becomes hard for a shooter to track strengths, weaknesses and possible ways to improve. It also becomes impossible for shooters after the fact to verify that results were correctly entered and tabulated. :-[ Yes, the extra data takes more space. That could have been provided by adding another row to the stage point score line for each competitor. Those details really are important - perhaps more so than powdered sugar on sugar cookies! Good luck, GJ

Now that you have explained a lot more. There is ALMOST no way that you will have a problem with mild Cowboy and even (moderate) Wild Bunch loads with Trail Boss powder with any commercial bullet loaded to 1.55" instead of 1.58" Trail Boss is an expensive powder to use. Red Dot would be easily available and quite a bit cheaper. Or Clays. Both cheaper by quite a bit, and still have a large enough volume to see powder levels in the case. You will still need that Lyman Cast Bullet handbook on your loading shelf. And you do not even need any loading equipment except a powder scale or set of Lee dippers to do the powder height test I laid out for you. You WILL need a fairly short nose bullet to hold length as short as you are planning. A short-nose RNFP may be the only way you get a length down to 1.550". MY 200 grain TC bullets I would not be able to load to much under 1.570" because the nose is too long. In other words, DO NOT buy a ton of reloading components UNTIL you (or a friend of yours) can load some test rounds to check for BOTH compatible OAL and a mild to moderate load that shoots well from your gun. Winter is when shooters often have extra time to try out new loads (even if you have to brave the elements to shoot 'em)! Good luck, GJ

Tully - Fire and Ice at Cowtown! http://www.dustybunch.com/fire_&_ice.htm Good luck trooper! GJ

Well, we gave you some real good advice on the SASS Wire. :o But, why don't you just throw a load of Trail Boss like you want to load, into a dead-primer case. Then hold one of your slugs up next to that case with the case mouth level with where you want to crimp the slug. If the powder level is higher than where the bottom of the slug is, then, yes you would have some compression. Once you do that you will know for certain! And you will have done it your own self. I could do it but I don't own (have never bought) Trail Boss, and I don't have one of your bullets to test with! 1. I REALLY doubt you need to drop to 1.550 overall length to get ammo to run in your gun. My Pioneer short stroked 73 runs any ammo that fits in the carrier shaft - right up to 1.600 OAL. A couple three dummy rounds made with just case and slug would tell you REAL quick (less than 5 minutes work and testing), then you can knock out the slug with a bullet puller and reload case like normal. 2. Trail Boss, like most other smokeless powders, can be compressed a little bit without raising pressures dangerously. Unless you are trying to load at the VERY TOP END of MAX LOADS, a 20 thousandths deeper seating depth of the bullet is not going to blow up a gun. You sure don't need to have anything like a MAX 45 Colt load to shoot either cowboy or Wild Bunch! So stay at a moderate load that makes about 165-185 power factor in your rifle and you have PLENTY of Trail Boss for our games. 3. And if you ARE trying to load a hot load (above SAAMI pressure levels) don't do it in a 73 that has an expensive short stroke kit in it. Get a 92 or even a clunky 94 that was (somewhat) made by the factory to handle 45 Colt cartridges. THOSE guns will handle pressures up well over what a 73 will take. From your line of questions, I would suppose you haven't done a lot of reloading, especially with cast bullets to make low velocity loads. Can I suggest you get and read the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook? It will tell you info you didn't even know you needed to know. ;) Good luck, GJ

At Founder's Los Pistoleros match Saturday, rifle targets were shot at about 17-20 yards. I wrote stages where we shot seven from rifle, so that the same pattern on the longest pistol set could be used for the rifle set (aka, the same target bank). Worked very naturally. (Yes, there was usually a closer shooting position for that 1911 set than where the rifle was shot from but not always.) Good luck, GJ

I REALLY hope that the big front sight gets WELL locked into the mortise on your slide by the person doing the installation. It is RARE that those big heavy replacement front sights can be held securely by that same tenon design that worked for the little nubby original sight. A dovetail for the big front sight is used by almost all custom 1911 builders because it is much more secure and easily replaced if damaged.

No strong preference, but Stage Points with the details left out is not the way to show results. Stage points with the details included, would be fine by me. As we drive WB stages to be similar round counts, as Cowboy did over several years (in order to make multiple posses run smoothly at larger matches), the amount of difference in results between SP and TT becomes pretty small.

I wouldn't decide on a $1000 competition gun based on the cost of a $25 touch-up blue repair after lowering the ejection port. Buy the finish you will shoot better with. I run a blue gun because glare off the slide is slightly less. But I have a SS backup (also Colt 70) that I shoot almost as well. If you just can't stand normal wear showing on a blued gun, by all means get the SS. After a month of shooting one, most folks have gotten over the "looks brand new" desire and don't care how the gun looks, just the score sheet. ;D Personally, neither of my guns have a lowered ejection port and I rarely ding a case mouth. And if I do - wow, I really don't care if I have to throw out a 4 cent piece of .45 auto brass after every match that can't be straightened. (I buy range brass by the 60# box.) A lowered port IMHO makes zero difference to gun reliability. Get your EXTRACTOR tip shaped right and you don't have a worry.

A standard approach to a loose sight in dovetail is to center punch the bottom of the sight base a couple three times, enough to push up a ring around the punch mark. This adds a couple thousandths to the effective height of the dove tail on the sight - which is the cheapest thing to replace. Folks sometimes just peen down the lips of the slot onto the sight base, which leaves marks on the slide and tends to loosen up again.

Yep, simplest scoring with stage points would be, as Griff suggested, "don't stage-point-score each category separately." Just run the stage points calculation, ignoring whatever category the shooter is in. Everybody shoots against the fastest shooter (regardless of category) on each stage, and gets points based on that. Add together each shooter's stage points, and you have total points, and sort that to have the overall ranking (positions). Then do the grouping of shooters into their category, carrying those overall positions along, and you get enough information to assign the finish positions within category, and they are guaranteed to reflect the SAME order as their overall finishes would tell you. No "third place in some category" becoming the overall match winner. Seems pretty simple. But, still not as simple as just total time. ;) But, it would keep slightly more "suspense" than TT, as you have to wait till the last shooter finishes to see who was going to be the fastest on each stage, to let the fastest pard provide the scoring basis for all the other shooters on each stage.

With 7 rounds in the mag, it will now take a more SOLID slap on the bottom of mag to seat the mag, compared to 5-round mag loads. Because the mag spring will be under more compression (as well as the loaded mag being heavier). I predict we will see more palm bites as an unintended consequence, until folks "shape up" their 7-round reloading skills.

Go read Hodgdon's online data for .45 auto and a 230 LRN bullet and WST. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol You will see they call 4.3 grains of WST and the 230 LRN bullet the MAX load. Making 812 FPS, which would be a PF of 187. Yep, I agree, 4.0 WST is a great load under a 230 grain slug. Some 1911s might even need 4.1 or 4.2 grains. WST is still a great powder, but I seriously think you are way over recommended pressure if you shoot 5.2 grains under a 230. Maybe that data is wrong, but it is what the powder manufacturer themselves are publishing and have published for as long as I've used WST (over ten years). Be careful out there!

Large numbers of .45 auto shooters use WST powder for target loads (which is essentially what we fire in WB). With a 200 grain bullet, you can go well above the necessary velocity for WB. (A 230 grain, you have very limited range of data for getting a safe pressure load that also is safely above the Power Factor). WST burns clean and cool, compared to TG. The Semiwadcutter bullet will not be as versatile as a Truncated Cone or Round Nose Flat Point. Using the H&G 68 design 200 grain SWC, load that so the top edge of shoulder comes just barely above the mouth of case and taper crimp down to about 0.471" OD right at the mouth. At least, that was my recipe for 30 years of shooting the SWC, before switching to TC design that is a little more forgiving on having an exact seating depth. The sharp shoulder on a SWC seated slightly long will jam on the rifling that starts very close to the chamber on a standard throated 1911 barrel. Leading to failure to chamber during the last 1/8" of slide travel. And, WST will work fine for a light loading in the .44 Mag, too. Good luck, GJ

It would be unacceptable. Same as a pistol that is one ounce under the limit, or a power factor that is one-tenth low. There are no tolerances specified for the rules that set a limit. It is a hard limit. AND YOU WERE TOLD WRONG. Pushing limits is a dangerous hobby. Apply a "safety" margin in case some match does not have quite the calibration that your test equipment had. Good luck, GJ

I'll start you on this journey with a couple of easy principles: Four targets in a bank - that lets a continuous Nevada sweep work well. 1-2-3-4-3-2-1 is a magazine full. Single, double, triple taps if you want. Three targets in a bank - a two-reverse continuous Nevada sweep 1-2-3-2-1-2-3 is a magazine full. Add multiple taps as well. Five targets don't work well for a Nevada sweep until you are willing to shoot 35 shots at that one set of 5 targets. (At least as far as my thinking has gone.) What have you folks figured out?

Next excuses for not shooting WB - I need to shoot my .38 special rifle and light loads. And Reduce PF to 100 because the 1911 hurts my hands, and I have a 45 GAP or 9mm I want to shoot. Which, by the way, is a Glock striker plastic piece. I predict we will also have puzzles trying to figure out fairly simple sweeps and sequences in enough variety to not get boring, and still not be interrupting sequences - "when you get to 14 shots, stop" instead of getting to the end of a bank of targets. Would someone like to publish a list of the sequences they believe work smoothly with 7-shot mag changes so all the match directors don't have to ALL start reinventing the sweep universe from scratch? Now's the time for local clubs to be testing and developing some, so we don't get to WR and find a nightmare of strange patterns. As this thread's title says, and it's no longer a joke - now it's a directive and homework assignment - Think of the new sweeps

Every gun likes a different cast bullet load. Maybe it's time to say that again. Rifles are a lot more picky about cast bullets than they are jacketed. If you expect a hum-dinger load in the first 20 loads you try, you may be expecting too much. Some folks work on loads for a year. Anyway, best of luck. "That's why they call it shooting, not hitting." - to adapt an old fishing joke. With a 6.5 Swede, if you are up over 1600 FPS and going sideways, for sure cut back powder. The load Your recipe that I used for Accurate 5744 is just about the starting load in Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4 for a 150 grain slug in 6.5 Swede. As also is the 4227 load. And both are shown at 1600 FPS or real close. It's just that some loads just don't work well in some guns...

Yep, ask the shooter to run it again. You didn't say HOW the TO knew the timer "didn't record all the shots", but if he ran back through the entire shot string and only had perhaps an 80% capture of shot count, then he sure would be justified in demanding shooter run again. This brings up a real good point, though. The TO MUST be looking at the timer on the last couple of shots to make sure the last shot got recorded. If the TO had done that on this scenario, TO would have seen that he was not capturing the shots and would have called it out as the shooter completed the stage. It's happened to me - I have had to tell a shooter: "Sorry, pard, but the timer was not picking up your last several shots. We'll get a different timer and I'll run you through again. But right now, we do not have a valid time for you." It does happen. But you also want to make sure it's not the TO's fault because he's not getting the timer into a good position to hear the shots, too. (or a bad timer, or a bad battery) No need for this to happen again for the next few shooters or even later stages. Good luck, GJ

Well, I'd repeat: When you get all the right parts together, a cast bullet load in the 6.5 Swede is a sweet heart. Otherwise, it can be a heart breaker. (ducking). I've never shot Hi-tek coated bullets in anything. So, those are a mystery to me. I've never seen top shooters in the Cast Bullet Association talk about shooting coated bullets in their published match results. I've seen my 6.5 Swede and a couple of same model of rifles from fellow BAMM shooters here in Albuquerque area (whom you probably know at least by name) shoot 16 Brinnell hardness non-quench-hardened bullets with lubes like White Label XLOX 2500+, Carnuba Red, or conventional NRA formula ALOX shoot under 2 MOA at least out to 300 yards. My favorite load right now is 17.5 grains of 4227 (checked) under the Lyman 266673 bullet (weighing about 150 grains with GC and lube). Make sure you have scrubbed ALL the copper fouling out of barrel. Clean until patches are white. Check barrel groove diameter that it matches bullets well. Check for good action to wood contact. Seat slugs out so that they don't have to jump far to hit start of rifling. All the standard things needed to work up good loads..... Maybe there'd be a match we both are at if you'd like to double check against some of my ammo in your gun? :) Happy to help. A fellow WB shooter was out at EOT this summer, and I'm afraid that when I loaned him that Swede and ammo and he shot it pretty well, that he got hooked immediately on BAMM. The behavior of your 5744 loads would suggest either severe fouling or excess muzzle velocity, especially if you are shooting up your chrono. Stepping velocity down below 1600 would have more chance of finding accuracy than pushing it above 1600, I would guess. Those long nosed slugs just don't have the strength in the nose to prevent slumping over as they go down barrel. So the story goes.

Don't know how long the MIM fire control parts hold up. Mine didn't stay in after the first 5 round function check. Tool steel replacements installed and fitted immediately. ;D