El Chapo

That seems like a very nice gun for $800. I have been shooting my STI Spartan 9mm for the last 14 years and eventually it's going to need a friend in the safe. I'm pretty sure it cost me something like $650 then, which is $943 in today's money. To be able to get an American made gun for $800 is a steal.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

How was the smoke?

As long as an arms race isn't created, people will come. That is where I have seen my other sports really screw up bad. No rule changes should be seriously considered that make existing equipment obsolete without a lot of thought and a very good reason. As to the rest of the stuff, I'm not surprised one bit that your tone is dismissive of serious changes; that's the nature of any established organization. If your "research" suggests that people can't be poached from other 1911 shooting sports, someone needs to look at what the survey question is asking (probably not measuring what you think it measures) and start marketing to them. America loves 1911s and there are tons of them out there, the question is how to get those people to a match to shoot. Many of them probably don't know we exist. ICORE, IDPA, USPSA/IPSC, and Steel Challenge are all great possible sources for more members. They may even try CAS after using WB as a gateway.

There seems to be a great deal of resentment from allowing the 38 rifles. I've observed that in person and on this forum. Personally I think it's more important to draw shooters from other disciplines rather than trying to be like CAS, especially if the scheduling is like it was at EoT where I would have had to choose one or the other and couldn't have been there for both. Abandoning this idea that WB should be CAS with 1911s is the #1 thing that will draw people from other disciplines. No more sweeps and round counts on every stage would go a LONG way. The power factor of 165 (actually 175 internationally IIRC) has proven plenty safe and comfortable in IPSC for many decades. If we don't care about power factor, 9mm 1911s should be allowed. I just loaded all my WB ammo for Geronimo Trail last night and I will be shooting 165-170 pf ammo. I doubt a 45 1911 would run all that great at 150, but either way I wasn't going to try it; there are no book loads with 230 grain bullets that soft. Maybe someday I'll mess with 200s again and push it down some, but it's really not worth it. 150 with 9mm would require heavier bullets/pushing the velocity a bit, but it could easily be achieved--there's factory ammo that makes that. They could keep the same categories in place and allowing 9mm 1911s to play wouldn't change the game at all. Until then, I'll continue to play with God's caliber. Factory 45 ACP is over 195 power factor by the way; 165 is nothing.

That is awesome.

Part of what makes SASS great are the people and the congregating at big matches and I will certainly do that. I am "new" to SASS in that I've only been a member for ~4 years, but I'm not new to 1911 shooting sports, having shot tens of thousands of rounds out of 1911s in several other sports over the last 23 years and I am happy to share my experience with anyone who will listen. I was also a certified range official for over a decade and I have held the timer and looked over the shoulder of some of the best handgun shooters who have ever lived. Part of the challenge with SASS members is that CAS has been going on for decades and has a lot of traditions that would have to be abandoned to "borrow" these ideas from other shooting sports. As to SASS shrinking or dying, the stuff you're all talking about here with younger shooters taking a break when college, girls, cars, and other things get in the say is not unique to SASS. Sarah Irish the first junior grandmaster in USPSA and as far as I know, she hasn't shot a match in a long time. She's got to be ~30 years old by now and I have no doubt you'll see her and others like her back shooting someday. Those who love the shooting sports won't leave them forever. That people need a break from a hobby is not uncommon at all. Once they have their own families and are established in their careers, they will be back. I have many suggestions that could keep the cowboy heritage (steel targets at modest distances) and make Wild Bunch more exciting so it can appeal to shooters of other disciplines. Hopefully someday we can see that happen. One such suggestion, that I've made in other threads, is to raise the power factor to ~165 for both the rifles and pistols, but certainly at least the pistols. Hopefully that would satisfy the people who are angry about the rule changes that allowed 38 rifles. The movement is another one. When that conversation happens among the people who can make changes, they will have to decide if tradition is more important than the gains from the rule changes. Maybe you all will tell me to kick rocks. I don't have any way of knowing. All I can do is share my experience from other shooting sports and tell you how we did it safely and then those people can decide.

Perhaps this is something that can be fixed with the next rule change. I know CAS doesn't really like us moving with loaded guns, but literally every other handgun shooting sport allows movement, so it's really not clear why we have to be different. Even Steel Challenge has one stage with movement.

https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=249215

For 45 ACP, I use a 14 pound recoil and 19 pound main. For 9mm and 40, I drop the main to 17 pounds and the recoil to 10 and 12.5, respectively. I use ISMI springs. Main spring should last a good long time. Recoil change it out every few years or more if you shoot a lot. I've heard people say 5,000 rounds and I'd say that sounds about right. I shoot almost all CCI primers and so I want the extra power to pop the large pistol primer.

Yet I shot 170+ PF ammo at steel targets in another shooting sport (as I was required to do by the rules) and not only did nobody die or get hurt, even jacketed bullets were allowed! Old habits die hard. SASS is more guilty of it than any other sport I've tried. Although I'm not even sure my gun will run with 150 pf .45 ACP--I've never tried to load it.

That's kinda what I was thinking without saying it. I would support raising the PF for rifles to 150 and the handguns to 175-180.

My comment wasn't to determine if it was possible, my question was whether we can persuade them to change the rules to require it.

I wonder if it'd be possible to go to 150 pf even with the .38s? I am pretty sure I can get a 158 grain bullet to 1000 fps no problem out of my rifle even with 38 brass and probably with the powder I'm already using.

Already booked that weekend or I'd be there.

My WB 1911 is a Kimber I've had for 20 years. I also have an STI Spartan 9mm, Springfield EMP 9mm, and a 2011 in .40 S&W. So 2, 3, or 4 depending on how you count. I keep saying I'm going to get a custom 1911 but maybe I will wait until I retire. I used to carry the EMP more but I bought a Shield and it's close enough that when I carry an auto, that's what I carry.

Round count instead of sweeps Raise power factor for pistol and rifle All wood stock pumps should be allowed I like the idea of plastic basepads

I don't think it's true that spam filters caught the confirmation email for this forum. It never sent me one. I even changed email addresses and it never went to either one. Something is wrong with the forum software. I don't think telling people to call is a solution. Not everyone is going to do that. The software needs to be fixed to start allowing people to sign up without having to to email or call. If we want to grow, we need the technology to work for us.

What I really wonder is why more wasn't considered from other shooting sports. Things like allowing every 1911, allowing plastic basepads, and having an open round count with a certain number of hits per steel target seem like no brainers to me. I can think of a few other suggestions I have as well that come from other sports that will not sit well with traditional cowboy shooters but will potentially draw people from other shooting disciplines. I don't even understand how the 38 rifles are controversial, and if that's an issue, it should be adjusted with power factor requirements, not bullet diameter. Maybe the simplest suggestion that I can give is to stop worrying about appearances so much and focus on the marksmanship. That is what shooting matches are about after all.

A 158 grain bullet at 1000 fps out of a 20" barrel is a piece of cake if that was what we were expected to load. I don't bother because the power factor is 60, so I doubt my 125s are more than 900 fps. I could probably bump them to 1200 or even more out of the rifle if that was what was required, but I don't think it'd enhance the game at all for them to require me to do so. If people really cared about power factor, the power factor for 45 ACP should be raised to at least 165, if not 175. A handgun at that power is much harder to shoot fast than one at 150. A 45 ACP with a 10 pound recoil spring and 150 pf ammo is a mouse fart compared to a 16 pound spring and 180+ pf (factory type) hard ball loads.

I would have done it a long time ago if they had offered that rule. I was putting off having to remove my magwell, remove my fiber optic sight and install a plain one, obtain flush fitting magazines, buy another rifle just to shoot another caliber, and buying a pump shotgun when I shoot CAS with a sxs. Now at least I only needed to do the first few things to be able to shoot. If I could have used my 870 police (wood stock, basic as it gets) that alone might have pushed me over the edge to try it.

I am facing the same dilemma! My gun is a 28" or so modified choke barrel. I have all the stuff to cut it but I'd talked myself out of it. I need to get to cutting!!

The way it is done in the "other" sport is not before the match. The chrono/gun weighing is a stage just like all the others. Other posses would be shooting and we would be subjecting our equipment to inspection. Even in that sport, they do not weigh every magazine, but I suppose they could if they wanted to. Realistically, if they don't care that much about the weight of the magazines, maybe they shouldn't be regulated, or the number should be so high that nobody bothers to game it. I had a plastic mainspring housing that I installed on my gun to sure it'll make weight with any magazine. I can't think of a time advantage for safeties either. My grip safeties all work even though they do not have to work in the "other" sports. I also agree with you that it doesn't matter if the thumb safety works or not as long as the rules continue the way they are. I have no idea why someone would think that was a worthwhile exercise. The "they" are whoever think it'd be productive to worry about a few ounces of weight or a grip safety. My point is that if those people really wanted to even the playing field and make a few ounces of weight matter even less, power factor would level it quickly. I agree with you that if the rule is 150 and everyone's happy with that, then it should be fine with it like that. I do think a more realistic power factor would make the game better in that it would make it more challenging and the guns more reliable with factory weight springs, but the reality as applied to me is that I'll install whatever spring and load whatever ammo I need to play the game, so it does not matter much at all. But it sure would to the person who thinks a weighted magazine is going to make him a better shooter.