El Chapo

I think we need to take the equal standing seriously if we want this to happen. "Wild Bunch is not a side match" needs to become our phrase. I also think there should be a push for the Wild Bunch and Cowboy Action Shooting state matches to be at the same location and done during the same event. Make it known that we won't be ignored and the recognition will come.

In Quickload, 3.9 grains @ 1.255" length with a 228 grain Lee bullet RN gets you 158 pf @ 10,696 psi. Bumping that to the 4.5 grain start load gets 182 pf @ 15,082 psi. All out of a 5" barrel. Quickload has the PF a little higher than predicted by the data you posted, but it's pretty close. I just got some Clean Shot and I may try it in .45 ACP the next time I load for WB. I'd have to reduce my Clays load to ~3 grains to get similar performance to 3.9 grains of Clean Shot, which probably wouldn't cycle very well. Maybe Clean Shot is as great as people say it is! I have 5 pounds to try.

I'm still on the fence but I'd really like to join you all.

N310 would be the common choice for .45 although there are slower powders that would work if needed.

I recently bought a Tisas 2011 and I am amazed with the quality for $520. It seemed too good to be true, but it isn't.

Nope, they have GI style baseplates covered with leather. For the other sports where normal magazines are allowed, I use Tripp Research with Dawson Precision aluminum basepads. No plastic here.

I bought Wilson Combat mags for my WB mags! Fortunately they were on sale.

You should be able to straighten the bow out. As long as it slides freely forward and aft, it'll work.

There are certainly other sports where pros and amateurs get to compete on the same surface. Drag racing is widely admired for that. No, I can't enter into the NHRA nationals. But I can race on the surface where they do it.

I don't even know who that is or how I'd vote, but I suppose one day I'll have to step up and get into the politicking.

I have no confidence that my proposed changes will ever happen because 1) I'm a nobody and 2) old habits die hard and SASS has a LOT of tradition. I will still be shooting SASS in 20 years though, and hopefully still in 40 years. That said, because I'm (not quite) half the age of many of you even though I have been shooting handguns competitively for 23 years and counting, I hope I can bring my experience from other shooting sports to show how we can poach people from those sports to come and shoot with us. I do hope most of you aren't frustrated with me because I can be contrarian, but I hope you all understand that I love the shooting sports and I come from that position in every comment I make. Above all, SASS has the best people I've met in the shooting sports, and that's why I have every intention of continuing to go to these events for a long time into the future.

That seems like a very nice gun for $800. I have been shooting my STI Spartan 9mm for the last 14 years and eventually it's going to need a friend in the safe. I'm pretty sure it cost me something like $650 then, which is $943 in today's money. To be able to get an American made gun for $800 is a steal.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

How was the smoke?

As long as an arms race isn't created, people will come. That is where I have seen my other sports really screw up bad. No rule changes should be seriously considered that make existing equipment obsolete without a lot of thought and a very good reason. As to the rest of the stuff, I'm not surprised one bit that your tone is dismissive of serious changes; that's the nature of any established organization. If your "research" suggests that people can't be poached from other 1911 shooting sports, someone needs to look at what the survey question is asking (probably not measuring what you think it measures) and start marketing to them. America loves 1911s and there are tons of them out there, the question is how to get those people to a match to shoot. Many of them probably don't know we exist. ICORE, IDPA, USPSA/IPSC, and Steel Challenge are all great possible sources for more members. They may even try CAS after using WB as a gateway.

There seems to be a great deal of resentment from allowing the 38 rifles. I've observed that in person and on this forum. Personally I think it's more important to draw shooters from other disciplines rather than trying to be like CAS, especially if the scheduling is like it was at EoT where I would have had to choose one or the other and couldn't have been there for both. Abandoning this idea that WB should be CAS with 1911s is the #1 thing that will draw people from other disciplines. No more sweeps and round counts on every stage would go a LONG way. The power factor of 165 (actually 175 internationally IIRC) has proven plenty safe and comfortable in IPSC for many decades. If we don't care about power factor, 9mm 1911s should be allowed. I just loaded all my WB ammo for Geronimo Trail last night and I will be shooting 165-170 pf ammo. I doubt a 45 1911 would run all that great at 150, but either way I wasn't going to try it; there are no book loads with 230 grain bullets that soft. Maybe someday I'll mess with 200s again and push it down some, but it's really not worth it. 150 with 9mm would require heavier bullets/pushing the velocity a bit, but it could easily be achieved--there's factory ammo that makes that. They could keep the same categories in place and allowing 9mm 1911s to play wouldn't change the game at all. Until then, I'll continue to play with God's caliber. Factory 45 ACP is over 195 power factor by the way; 165 is nothing.

That is awesome.

Part of what makes SASS great are the people and the congregating at big matches and I will certainly do that. I am "new" to SASS in that I've only been a member for ~4 years, but I'm not new to 1911 shooting sports, having shot tens of thousands of rounds out of 1911s in several other sports over the last 23 years and I am happy to share my experience with anyone who will listen. I was also a certified range official for over a decade and I have held the timer and looked over the shoulder of some of the best handgun shooters who have ever lived. Part of the challenge with SASS members is that CAS has been going on for decades and has a lot of traditions that would have to be abandoned to "borrow" these ideas from other shooting sports. As to SASS shrinking or dying, the stuff you're all talking about here with younger shooters taking a break when college, girls, cars, and other things get in the say is not unique to SASS. Sarah Irish the first junior grandmaster in USPSA and as far as I know, she hasn't shot a match in a long time. She's got to be ~30 years old by now and I have no doubt you'll see her and others like her back shooting someday. Those who love the shooting sports won't leave them forever. That people need a break from a hobby is not uncommon at all. Once they have their own families and are established in their careers, they will be back. I have many suggestions that could keep the cowboy heritage (steel targets at modest distances) and make Wild Bunch more exciting so it can appeal to shooters of other disciplines. Hopefully someday we can see that happen. One such suggestion, that I've made in other threads, is to raise the power factor to ~165 for both the rifles and pistols, but certainly at least the pistols. Hopefully that would satisfy the people who are angry about the rule changes that allowed 38 rifles. The movement is another one. When that conversation happens among the people who can make changes, they will have to decide if tradition is more important than the gains from the rule changes. Maybe you all will tell me to kick rocks. I don't have any way of knowing. All I can do is share my experience from other shooting sports and tell you how we did it safely and then those people can decide.

Perhaps this is something that can be fixed with the next rule change. I know CAS doesn't really like us moving with loaded guns, but literally every other handgun shooting sport allows movement, so it's really not clear why we have to be different. Even Steel Challenge has one stage with movement.

https://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=249215

For 45 ACP, I use a 14 pound recoil and 19 pound main. For 9mm and 40, I drop the main to 17 pounds and the recoil to 10 and 12.5, respectively. I use ISMI springs. Main spring should last a good long time. Recoil change it out every few years or more if you shoot a lot. I've heard people say 5,000 rounds and I'd say that sounds about right. I shoot almost all CCI primers and so I want the extra power to pop the large pistol primer.

Yet I shot 170+ PF ammo at steel targets in another shooting sport (as I was required to do by the rules) and not only did nobody die or get hurt, even jacketed bullets were allowed! Old habits die hard. SASS is more guilty of it than any other sport I've tried. Although I'm not even sure my gun will run with 150 pf .45 ACP--I've never tried to load it.

That's kinda what I was thinking without saying it. I would support raising the PF for rifles to 150 and the handguns to 175-180.