El Chapo

Separate is great if it's my state. Separate not so good if I have to travel. Either way, "Wild Bunch is not a side match"

I struggle with the same thing. Having it on Tuesday is hard. Thursday/Friday would be great.

I think we need to take the equal standing seriously if we want this to happen. "Wild Bunch is not a side match" needs to become our phrase. I also think there should be a push for the Wild Bunch and Cowboy Action Shooting state matches to be at the same location and done during the same event. Make it known that we won't be ignored and the recognition will come.

In Quickload, 3.9 grains @ 1.255" length with a 228 grain Lee bullet RN gets you 158 pf @ 10,696 psi. Bumping that to the 4.5 grain start load gets 182 pf @ 15,082 psi. All out of a 5" barrel. Quickload has the PF a little higher than predicted by the data you posted, but it's pretty close. I just got some Clean Shot and I may try it in .45 ACP the next time I load for WB. I'd have to reduce my Clays load to ~3 grains to get similar performance to 3.9 grains of Clean Shot, which probably wouldn't cycle very well. Maybe Clean Shot is as great as people say it is! I have 5 pounds to try.

I'm still on the fence but I'd really like to join you all.

N310 would be the common choice for .45 although there are slower powders that would work if needed.

I recently bought a Tisas 2011 and I am amazed with the quality for $520. It seemed too good to be true, but it isn't.

Nope, they have GI style baseplates covered with leather. For the other sports where normal magazines are allowed, I use Tripp Research with Dawson Precision aluminum basepads. No plastic here.

I bought Wilson Combat mags for my WB mags! Fortunately they were on sale.

You should be able to straighten the bow out. As long as it slides freely forward and aft, it'll work.

There are certainly other sports where pros and amateurs get to compete on the same surface. Drag racing is widely admired for that. No, I can't enter into the NHRA nationals. But I can race on the surface where they do it.

In other action shooting sports, except IDPA, which penalizes dropping loaded magazines, competitors will replace the magazine in their gun before it it is empty so that they don't have to cycle the slide to get back to shooting. Tenths of seconds can make the difference in winning or losing a 12 stage match, and shooting the gun to slide lock is much slower. The only time you will see a serious competitor shoot a gun empty is if he has made a mistake. At that point, the competitor has made such a serious error that the stage is a total loss, it's just a matter of doing the best you can at that point. Since the game is shot in shooting positions of no more than 8 shots per position or view, even a single stack .45 1911 has 8+1 rounds, so there will still be the last round in the chamber when the person hits their reload. And in the other divisions, the guns can have much higher capacity, some up to 27-28 rounds, so there would be no reason unless someone has really screwed up that the gun would ever be empty. It is not only common to not shoot the gun empty, but also to modify guns so that they don't lock back when empty. The reason for this is to avoid the possible reliability issues that come from the lock back function (e.g., I just got a new 2011 that likes to lock back with 1 round left in the magazine, so I will be installing followers without the lock back function when I get around to tuning the magazines to make them work).

I don't even know who that is or how I'd vote, but I suppose one day I'll have to step up and get into the politicking.

The course of fire ends with the words "range is clear." If your gun isn't in your holster, the RO shouldn't say those words. But if he does, and the course of fire is over, and the gun is NOT in your holster, with limited exception, it's a match DQ for unsafe gun handling. So also wrong again. Maybe I should say this: if you think you know what you're talking about, or even if you're sure you know what you're talking about, cite the rule that supports your assertion. Because thus far, literally every claim you have made in this thread is verifiably false by simply looking at the rules, and obviously so to anyone who has taken an RO course in any of these sports. BTW, if you were done shooting and holstered your gun safely, the only thing it'd cause is the RO to ask you to unload and show clear. There is no rule that says your gun has to be in your hand when those words are uttered. So you're absolutely wrong about that part. The shooting is over in that case, but the course of fire is not. And like every other part of the course of fire between "make ready" and "range is clear," it is absolutely legal to holster your gun in the correct ready condition. So in that case, it'd be "no call." But for this, you don't even know the reason you're wrong. You're wrong because the course of fire isn't over yet, so it is governed by the same Rule 8.2.5 discussed above. Holstering your gun (safely) is not a crime.

Two people have now explained to you that there is no rule prohibiting safe holstering during a course of fire. The explicit text of the rules have been posted here and shown to you. The rules also prohibit requiring holstering on the clock because it's slow. Which is why those dump barrels exist. If a person were to safely holster instead of using one, the worse that would happen is a procedural error; it is not any kind of unsafe gun handling penalty.

I have no confidence that my proposed changes will ever happen because 1) I'm a nobody and 2) old habits die hard and SASS has a LOT of tradition. I will still be shooting SASS in 20 years though, and hopefully still in 40 years. That said, because I'm (not quite) half the age of many of you even though I have been shooting handguns competitively for 23 years and counting, I hope I can bring my experience from other shooting sports to show how we can poach people from those sports to come and shoot with us. I do hope most of you aren't frustrated with me because I can be contrarian, but I hope you all understand that I love the shooting sports and I come from that position in every comment I make. Above all, SASS has the best people I've met in the shooting sports, and that's why I have every intention of continuing to go to these events for a long time into the future.

They might be holstering either one depending on the circumstances. Ideally, a gun is never shot dry in an action shooting sport.

That seems like a very nice gun for $800. I have been shooting my STI Spartan 9mm for the last 14 years and eventually it's going to need a friend in the safe. I'm pretty sure it cost me something like $650 then, which is $943 in today's money. To be able to get an American made gun for $800 is a steal.

Wrong. IPSC is just the international version of USPSA, the rules are the same and even numbered the same. Not only is it not prohibited, the rule explicitly says it's okay if done safely: 8.2.5 "A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the Start Signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1." IDPA, I was unable to find any rule prohibiting holstering on the clock upon review. I am not and have never been an IDPA SO, but it was born out of USPSA, so unless there was a reason to prohibit it, they probably just didn't. 3 gun is all outlaw these days, although all of it started with USPSA rules, and it sounds like you recognize that holstering is generally legal there. Steel Challenge involves literally holstering your loaded gun dozens of times per match. It also does not prohibit holstering on the clock, although I can't think of any reason you'd want to. It looks like we're the last one left drawing empty guns and prohibiting holstering. Although I haven't shot ICORE in a while so maybe they have a rule I haven't reviewed. I'm not aware of the existence of any other dynamic, athletic shooting sports. But so far all of them say that holstering is perfectly safe, even though it sounds like you weren't aware. The rule change that would be necessary for us to do this safely is that holsters would have to cover the trigger 100%. But virtually every other handgun shooting sport requires that as well. And I'd gladly buy a new holster to not have to draw an empty gun on the clock. Anyone who comes from another sport and sees us carrying Israeli carry is going to be seriously put off by what they see. It may not seem like that now in this community, but let me tell you, I came from the other one, and we didn't carry empty guns to the line.

All of them. It's just not common because it's slow, and it cannot be required because competitive holstering with loaded gun is dangerous and people will rush it. But there is no rule prohibiting holstering a gun safely in the middle of a course of fire and then drawing it again. You used the term "safety officer" which is an IDPA term, and while I haven't shot IDPA in a long time (like 10 years), I couldn't find any rule in the rulebook prohibiting holstering on the clock. It was born out of USPSA though, and I don't know why they'd deviate. For example, USPSA rule 2.2.2.4 makes it illegal to require a shooter to holster in order to traverse an obstacle. "Competitors must not be required to holster their handgun before ascending these obstacles." If it was unsafe gun handling to holster on the clock, there would be no reason to have a rule requiring a stage to be built in a manner that allows competitors to get to the shooting without having to holster. That said, in decades of doing this, I've only infrequently ever seen someone holster a gun on the clock. The only example I can think of where someone might want to do that is someone who is disabled, he might have to holster to push his own wheelchair, or to open a door for example if the shooter only had the use of one arm. Although it's slow, there's nothing illegal about someone having to do that. Which is why they have Rule 8.2.5: "A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a hand gun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1." For a 1911, that means safety applied when holstering, and for all competitors, they must use a holster that covers the trigger.

Not true. It cannot be required but it is not prohibited to holster a pistol on the clock in all of the other handgun shooting sports where I have shot tens of thousands of rounds through a 1911. It is not required that one do any of those things. The other sports 1) require a holster that covers the trigger and 2) permit the holstering of a pistol with a round in the chamber and the safety applied. Really, it's that simple. In 5 decades of matches it has been proven that those safety rules are completely sufficient. If the gun falls out of the holster, it's a match DQ. Pick your holster carefully. What we need is a serious culture and attitude change toward the automatic.

Maybe that's something we can fix someday. There's no reason a safely holstered pistol should be any kind of penalty.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.

I will go on record and say if it wasn't for the 38 rifle rule, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't a big deal to buy a Model 12, but a rifle costs 10x what my Model 12 cost me. It was bad enough that I had to knock off my fiber optic sight (but I can paint the red dot on the front sight if I want?), remove my magwell, and buy an entirely separate set of magazines, but at least I didn't have to drop a few grand on a rifle. None of those are places where serious competition shooters are looking. You should be running ads on Instagram and making promotional videos to show people how Wild Bunch is a dynamic and athletic shooting sport. Maybe cut out the sections where people are drawing an empty gun or moving with the gun at slide lock though, as showing that will be counterproductive.