Artemus

Who needs 20% clean when you have more than 20% with SDQ

There were a lot of SDQ. Too many of the adjacent stages had targets painted opposite, in ex. one stage the red was a multi hit and black targets were single hits. The next stage the targets were painted in the opposite way and added to confusion. The kill em all stage, was challenging for the shooters and TO alike since there were only 7 targets to a position and you could not shoot targets at the next position. This lead to lots of clearing guns for movement and SDQ. Every stage was rifle not last, which was found to be needed based on the prior year's speed rifle sidematch with 38s. We need to get back to a 150PF, so we can keep the game playable as you want. First five stages offered a little more flexibility in how the stages were shot vs the last five.

What does this entail, I understand there is an ROC now, but I was hoping to see the follow-up reports mentioned in SASS's evaluation last year. Especially a one year, to try and quantify the change. If progress is being made let's communicate it. Hell, shout it from the roof top. I have communicated directly in the past on at least a few matters. I am more than happy to do so when that seems to be the appropriate method. I fully understand your remark about the impression this leaves with newer WB shooters. However, I would say that posting things like this can provide a barometer to if someone's opinions are shared or unique. Additionally, garnering public support is one of the most effective tools to drive change. CC, I will unabashedly say I was happy to see that you shot the WB match at Land Run. That was one of the best gestures, in seeing someone from "SASS" be it advisory board or otherwise participate in an upper level WB match.

It doesn't sadly, just real tired of everything that's been lost in the last couple of years for nothing to be better. More progress in equal standing was made by EoT in changing the verbage, having a dedicated WB shoot off and awards. Land Run following this lead only helped reinforce what looked like progress. Now we are back to fighting to keep what we had, at least that's how it felt leaving that last TG meeting.

I was hoping so see some "proof is in the pudding" with all the talk of giving Wild Bunch Equal standing. I was disappointed this morning to find the National Championship didn't make the cover. In my mind, there are four national champions. Feel free to say I'm a stick in the mud, but if we really want to promote and grow WB then we should give it recognition as well.

I am a little concerned here, as what may be one of the only things the shooters wanted that managed to get changed in the chaos of the last two years, and you sound inclined to not have it as a main match category in the future. It doesn't help that basically all of the shooters that advocated for TR/DB, developed, and worked through the rule changes have moved on to bigger and better.

Think Colt Hammerless 1903, Mauser 1910/14, etc

Rifle targets at 30-50 yards work great for TR and DB. If you can't get them out far enough, make the targets smaller to balance it out. You will be very hard pressed, to win overall shooting in TR or DB if you are thinking that people will be doing that. The data is out there to back this up. TR and DB are a whole 'nother level of fun on top of WB and I wouldn't have WB without it. I only wish we could bring rifle caliber to the other game.

Restrictions on the 1911 and shooting one handed are the defining aspects of Traditional, but I don't see the need to force a switch. I'll do it if there's a problem, but no other reason. Traditional is usually 25-35% of the matches I attend. Land Run and EoT have the best Traditional/Modern ratio.

Pershing's Pursuit was Missouri State WB up through 2023 (and sort of SW Territorial) and was the first to run DB and TR as main match category in 2023 before it was fully approved. They are two of the best categories, but baffle me when people say "rifle is the least emphasized part of WB." Unnecessary verbiage, that pushes things in the other direction.

"Rifle is the least empathized firearm" in Wild Bunch always bothered me. This is just not the case, and I would challenge that with anyone that felt that way. We the shooters would not have bothered trying to get Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy for years if we didn't like shooting rifles. As for this round count comment, almost every single match I have shot in the Rifle round count is 7-10 per stage and the SG is 4-6. Maybe one 8 SG stage, but clearly not the lower round count. I would encourage people writing things like this shoot in some Wild Bunch matches before building these assumptions. Especially don't take advice from the biggest pair of whiners out of Texas, that I am convinced only shoot in WB matches to complain about them.

I had faith in the system, but after EoT I have a hard time finding any. You mention the new TG system, I assume you were in that meeting as well. We were told then that it's up to the TG to make changes now, but we were not allowed to do so then. Stating that there is "no ROC and not enough WBTG," with no answer to how many WBTG are deemed to be enough to start talking or a timeline for an ROC. We are essentially 18 months from the EoT where this emerged from with no path forward. I would maintain hope if I heard anything about work being done. I loved Wild Bunch. Most if not all of my favorite people to shoot with are there. I liked playing two different games as well (CAS and WB). I haven't seen any new shooters, and the ones that were most passionate and supportive of it are gone. I can't argue with them on why.

No, the TG meeting at EoT was simply to tell us that there is still no ROC, and not enough TGs to make any rule changes. SASS says no rule changes runitl the TGs vote and the ROC approve. About three items were brought up and shot down, as they would not be discussed until the above conditions were met.

I will say that nearly all WB shooters hope this rule changes. One of the great things about WB is that the guns can be shot in any order. The 60 PF breaks this as the shot timer no longer reliably picks up these low power rifle shots. Shooting a 38/357 and making a higher PF should not be an issue. I expect this to be a heavily debated item at the EoT TG meeting. You might wait at least until after that meeting.

Especially since PF is set at 60. It's going to change the game and prevent ending with a rifle. Which is a real bummer, I liked the flexibility in WB, it helped break up the monotony. Especially for those that liked moving to the left, it helped them out some.

stoke it if you can

It's silent, because any WB legal pistol/shooting style is legal. Many shoot modern and two handed. Some of us are wired wrong now and still shoot traditional style in the TR/DB categories

Under "Sanctioning," I simply cannot accept that dollar value with out a lot more data. I was feeling deceived with the "Membership and Shooting Engagement" numbers, unless there are just way more active SASS member than I can reasonably estimate. Misty claims only $8448 has been taken in for sanctioning fees in the last 10 years! From Bear Creek Volunteers alone hosting sanctioned matches from 2019-2023 I can account for at least $1,035. For state matches I have attended in OK, TX, and KS from 2020-2023 (non-inclusive of all matches, missing at least 4 state matches in this) I can account for another at least $1600 of sanction fees. Based on average shooters, those four state matches I missed, would be about $500 more. Four years, and four states have generated more than $3000. I am to believe the rest of the country can't account for any more?

It was a great time! Shooting TR for four stages was a great addition!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/oklahomaroughriders/permalink/1061879631843821/?mibextid=oMANbw Try this

Lawman, thanks for adding this in the rules. I get asked this at least once a match.

Ruby, Thanks for the clarification, I was trying to verify that, but had not been able to do so yet. Thanks for making it easy

Tully, I will say I had at least some hand in bringing this up based on feedback from running WB matches in our area, our shooters and talking to shooters in OK and TX. I am a little curious as our conchos are $65 a piece for senior conchos. Our area would favor having a WB specific buckle. I assume this would be an overall Mens and Ladies like SASS does for sanctioned cowboy matches. Currently the feeling is we are forced to buy the conchos to honor all categories the same. At the $65 price point, this is higher than the each cost we have paid for any of our buckles from Mollys. Since we ran TR and DB as main match categories, we would have been looking at 7 conchos out of pocket, for less than that price we bought buckles for each of the Territorial champions. We would prefer to have the freedom to decide what awards are used, and the ability to make it more affordable.

J Frank Norfleet, it looks like those numbers exclude the ladies categories, any particular reason why? WOW look at the Traditional category count for DoT! That's crazy. I think your approach is down the right road, but I would argue your outlook. Considering the pressure about growing the sport and overall membership, I would look at this as Wild Bunch is the only division of the two that brings in people under 65, and not just aging everyone out. WB has about 42% of its shooters under 65 at EoT while you are looking at under 20% on the Cowboy side. WB is the best chance SASS has for membership. I will also say, EoT's WB is probably my favorite match. I like that they push the targets out some from the cowboy side, but I always explain to people as the targets are just big enough to miss. People always get cocky about the targets there, and push too hard. To build on that, there is variety in the stages, a couple of harder, couple easier and most in the middle. I like that EoT makes you have to adjust the throttle, as opposed to a match that just keeps it at one level. I don't think anyone here will argue with the fact that WB's treatment and labeling as a sidematch has been a hinderance to it's growth. I have always teased the idea of having a 3 stage CAS match at my Wild Bunch matches, just as a turn the tables maneuver. I like the lower cost of entry to get into WB, and it's easier to bring in new members. Especially with Doughboy and Teddy Roosevelt removing the $1800 rifle requirement.

Well the door prizes are rolling in big time! We have two mernickle rigs to give away, bullets for days from Bear Creek and Quality Cast, Gift Certificates for all your favorites like Bullets by Scarlett and Starline Brass and much more!