Factory sights on Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 1911

[Ol Salty Sailor]

I have shot a couple of WB matches in the modern category, had a blast.  

I am considering the purchase of a Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 1911.  Springfield's website describes the sights as "Fixed Combat 3-dot".  Would this be in category for traditional?

[Boggus Deal]

You’d have to blacken the 3 Dot sights with a Sharpie or black paint.

[El Chapo]

2 hours ago, Boggus Deal said:

You’d have to blacken the 3 Dot sights with a Sharpie or black paint.

Which I would do anyway, 3 dot sights are a terrible distraction.  Not sure how those ever became popular.

[Rooster Ron Wayne 86029]

Probably the best buy in the game and Built with the best quality for the money .

The Tisas 1911

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1114769035

 

[Blastin Brad]

I've asked about blacking out sites.  ROC member said "No, they are still 3 Dot and not allowed".  I have since replaced the sites with those specified by the WB handbook.  

[Boggus Deal]

9 minutes ago, Blastin Brad said:

I've asked about blacking out sites.  ROC member said "No, they are still 3 Dot and not allowed".  I have since replaced the sites with those specified by the WB handbook.  

Not sure who told you that but they were wrong. It’s always been legal to blackout 3 dot sights. 

[Blastin Brad]

Well, it was a current ROC member.  The way the rule is written it says 3 Dot and fiber optic sites are not allowed.  If you have those sites, even if blacked out, they are still those sites and therefore illegal.  

May have been legal in the past, or in cowboy, but looks like it changed.

Ethan Callahan should chime in 

[marshal stone]

Blacked out three dot sights are legal.

I don't know which ROC member said they were illegal, but they are wrong.

Marshal Stone

ROC member

[Blastin Brad]

Marshal Stone et al.  It was a conversation I had with Ethan Callahan.  According to the rules, for a Traditional Gun, I agree with him.  Page 13 under 1911 pistol - Traditional Category Modifications it states "Only non-adjustable “military style” simple blade rear and front sights allowed. The 10-8 National Match and the Harrison Design 003 are approved rear sights." No where in the rules does it state you can use 3-dot sites for Traditional, blacked out or not.  If they are legal for use the rules need to be changed to specify this.  

Edited September 22 by Blastin Brad

[Boggus Deal]

In cowboy, Pale Wolf Brunelle likes to call it RO3. It’s called common sense. Never had to put it that way in Wild Bunch until recently. It’s been perfectly legal to blacken the three dots on Traditional pistols since at least 2009, when I started shooting Wild Bunch.
It was that way when I became an Ambassador in 2012. It was that way when I was invited to join the Wild Bunch Rules Committee in 2017. 

[Jorge]

I agree with Blastin Brad.

I looked over several older Wild Bunch Handbooks, and nowhere did it list anything but military sights, blade front and rear, for Traditional Category 1911.

For Modern 1911, no fiberoptic, etc, and the white dots could be blacked out, or be various colors, I suppose.

I have never heard that other (bigger?)  sights could be used in Traditional Category for the 1911.  Perhaps someone was lenient.

Show me the citation indicating otherwise, if you would.

[Garrison Joe]

During the run of production of the Ruger SR 1911 traditional style pistol, which had 3 dot sights, they were commonly blacked out per posted judgments from the ROC of the time.  And a couple of other 1911s also carried those same dot sights. 

They certainly WERE blade and notch sights, only allowing adjustment by drifting the sight.  Honoring that decision is kind of important for all those who invested early in the sport. 

As for "military" sights, few folks use the military "barley corn" sights that the original 1911 carried.  They are really small.  The two rear sights that the rules book have cited as EXAMPLES (both considerably taller than the barley corns) - neither have been regularly installed on any military 1911s.  "Military" is a style of sight, not a specific manufacturer/model of sight.

How about explaining how the dots colored over to match the sight body gives any competitor an edge over those pards using "non-dotted" blade and notch sights?

good luck, GJ

 

Edited September 23 by Garrison Joe

[Boggus Deal]

9 minutes ago, Jorge said:

I agree with Blastin Brad.

I looked over several older Wild Bunch Handbooks, and nowhere did it list anything but military sights, blade front and rear, for Traditional Category 1911.

For Modern 1911, no fiberoptic, etc, and the white dots could be blacked out, or be various colors, I suppose.

I have never heard that other (bigger?)  sights could be used in Traditional Category for the 1911.  Perhaps someone was lenient.

Show me the citation indicating otherwise, if you would.

Well, you’d be wrong, too. See my post above. 
And reread the rule book. It says military STYLE blade sights and it specifically mentions the Harrison Design and 10-8 rear sights. 
 

[Jorge]

Well, I have been wrong before.  I will say that the two rear sights listed are rather specific sights, and would be different than a more modern combat rear sight perhaps.

Nothing so specific is noted for the front sight for the Traditional 1911.  I don't think a post with a gold dot would be allowed, for example.

I agree that simply blacking out white dots is not a big deal, and the sights may not enhance the shooter's ability.  Still, certain sight requirements have been constant, for traditional at least.  

[Boggus Deal]

1 hour ago, Jorge said:

I don't think a post with a gold dot would be allowed, for example.

Still, certain sight requirements have been constant, for traditional at least.  

No, a gold bead is not, nor ever has been, legal for Traditional.

And yes, Traditional sight requirements have been constant. At least since 2009. 
I don’t have the rules from that era handy but they’re pretty much exactly as they are written today. 

[Blastin Brad]

Nice of you all to chime in.  Please show me in the rules where it states those sites are legal.  I can't find it.  If it is left up to a determination, then it proves the book needs to be updated.  Also, yes even filled in I'd say they could give an advantage as I can see the spots on the sites when that is done.  

This came about because I had 3 dots on a Springfield 1911 and because I file the front site it is silver colored.  this would require me to use silver of maybe white in the front site so they would no longer have the visible (different color) dots.  I was shown the book section that I pasted in my post above and told "no, even filled they are 3 dot sites and do not comply with the rules".  so I have changed them to the specified sites in the book. 

We should never have to say "well it's always been like that since whatever year" - as that does not matter -  it should be made clear to all shooters world-wide.  Of course the rules have changed multiple times since I started shooting this some 15 yrs ago, so that would make it even harder to remember the approved by word of mouth changes.  

[Cardboard Cowboy]

Morning Brad,

  Please ask your ROC member, where in the Handbook does it state that “3 Dot sight’s” are not allowed on a traditional gun.  Please use those exact words, “3 dot sight”.  Don’t care about the color, we’ll get to that later.

I’ve look in the HB’s back to 2009 and there is no mention ever, of 3 dot sights for the 1911.  Would a 3 dot sight be allowed if the insert’s were colored black from the manufacture?

In 2013 the verbiage “no sight inserts or colored sights allowed” was added for traditional category modifications.  It was still listed this way through 2019.  In 2020 this bullet comment was deleted and has not returned through the May 2025 handbook.   

I completely agree if they are any other color, except polished blue to very matted parkerized or any dull color as OD green, flat dark earth, desert tan, etc.  They would not be legal.  As all these colors mentioned, are legal for gun/slide color, the sight’s may be the color of the slide or any combination of the slide color.  Also the back of the sight can be polished to a natural steel color, we’ve got a lot of options.

Sight requirement states “Military Style”, not Mil-Spec.  Handbook calls for a blade “style” front sight, which can be dovetailed (not Mil-Spec), pinned (not Mil-Spec) or staked (Mil-Spec).  But all three attachment methods are military style, as long as they are simple blade sights.

HB also stated all parts may be smoothed, re-profiled, polished, deburred or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these covenants.  So you could file away/polish the white dot (if it is a white dot, 3 dot) and be in compliance.  Unless you can show me in the covenants where “3 dot sights” are called out as prohibited?

As for the other (bigger?) sights, I assume you’re (Jorge) referring to the taller front “Blade” sight?    Since the handbook calls for “Military Style” and not Mil-Spec.  Is it a blade style front sight?  Answer is Yes.  Mil-Spec gives all the dimensions of the sight, hight, width, angles, tenon width, depth of tenon through the slide, etc…

“Military Style” is calling for a simple blade front sight.  No mention what the height requirements are.

Ok now for my quirky question and comment.  I think they got the HB correct by stating that the sights must be the color of the “slide” and not just gun.  What if I have a Forged frame, which is blued.  And I have a stainless slide, if the sights could be the color or any combination of the gun.  I could have a blued front sight and a stainless colored rear sight.

But to me it would not matter.  Who uses sights anyway?

See you in a couple weeks Brad.

Cardboard Cowboy

[Blastin Brad]

HI Cardboard!

I agree with your explanation of "Military Style".  You state "Please ask your ROC member, where in the Handbook does it state that “3 Dot sight’s” are not allowed on a traditional gun.  Please use those exact words, “3 dot sight”.  However the below items from the book say if something is not listed it is illegal, and you say 3 dot sights are not listed... therefore illegal.  You stated that 3 Dot Sight is not stated in the book.   

Your other comments on filing, colors etc are right with the wording in the book.  A 3 dot is not a simple blade in my opinion.

These are all from the Wild Bunch Action Shooting Shooters Handbook version 17.6 May 2025

FIREARM COVENANTS (page 9)

- Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal.

- Any firearm modification not referenced in this handbook is prohibited.

1911 Pistol – Traditional Category Modifications (page 12-13)

-Only non-adjustable “military style” simple blade rear and front sights allowed. The 10-8 National Match and the Harrison Design 003 are approved rear sights.
- Front sights may be dovetailed, pinned, or staked.
- Sights may be the color of the slide or any combination of the slide color, including but not limited to blue, black, or natural stainless (natural colored) steel. The back of a colored front sight may be polished to a natural steel color.

Looking forward to seeing ya!

Brad

[Eyesa]

19 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

How about explaining how the dots colored over to match the sight body gives any competitor an edge over those pards using "non-dotted" blade and notch sights?

Agreed!

Somewhat off topic:

Similar to Plainsman in CAS, on an H&R Buffalo Classic, a peep sight mounted on the tang/stock is ok, but the factory Williams one mounted on the barrel is not. What advantage does the barrel mount give? Other than not getting the sight rammed into your thumb on recoil!

Edited September 23 by Eyesa
Typo

[Cardboard Cowboy]

My bad Brad, see I’m a poet.  I really was only referring to the front sight. But here’s a Colt series 70 rear sight, identical to a Mil-Spec sight.  Except the evil dots.  Colt also has a front sight, to go along with this rear sight, that is also Mil-Spec.  Except for the evil dot.  Which is just really painted on.   I’m sitting in Alabama rain right now, our SER starts in two days. So I don’t have a picture of the front sight. 

so your saying re-profiling or polishing the dots off is a modification?  This is listed under the conventions.  Profiling is not a modification. According to the convention pg 10-11. 
 

ok running up to PCC range. Just bought Treylee two new JP-5’s snd she needs to break in barrels. 
 

Brad are you camping at LR?  We’ll have a soda and talk it over. 

CC
 

 

[Jorge]

Let's just cut to the chase and petition to have clarification of the front and rear sights allowable to a "Traditional" 1911, and indicate that any "colored dot" may be blacked out and be legal.

This could be proposed at the Land Run Wild Bunch TG meeting.

[Blastin Brad]

Cardboard...  Yes we are camping.  I'll be at the main clubhouse.  Looking forward to seeing you - and Foxy there.

[Cardboard Cowboy]

Perfect answer Jorge!  See y'all soon.  We will be at the Cowboy camping site Brad.  Markie is looking forward to seeing you again.  Is your better 1/2 and pup's coming?

CC

Edited September 23 by Cardboard Cowboy
corrected Markie's name

[Blastin Brad]

The 3 of us will be there!

[Cardboard Cowboy]

🤠