Model 12 inquiry?

[Eyesa]

First question 😁, why is the Model 12 better for WB than a '97? I know pretty much zero about 12s!

I found one on consignment today at my LGS for $750 that had a nice shiny bore and good furniture. It had a rust pitted mark about half inch diameter a bit forward of the chamber and a like size one on the receiver that had been cleaned up and reblued. My mind and wallet wanted to pay a max of $550. He came down to $600 and I held at my price. Should I grab it at $600 or wait and try again in a week or so if it's still there. From another thread, it appears to be a good idea to replace the firing pin, is there anything else I should know at this point. For the record, I have never shot WB and the SG is the last gun I need and some mag pouches. I do have a backup Norinco '97 that will hold 6, but haven't shot tested it yet.

Thanks in advance,

Eyesa

 

[Garrison Joe]

I'd not even replace a firing pin on fear of failure unless you have no suitable backup.   With that condition on the Model 12, that gun probably has not been shot enough to weaken the factory pin.    Besides, you have your backup  - take it to bigger matches every time!

Pros and Cons - in my experience

Model 12s are on average about 30 years newer than US made 97s.  They have better tuned trigger systems and feed mechanisms.  Better steel, especially compared to what Norinco used.  MUCH better parts availability, but even with 12s, those may have to be used parts.

97s are loose guns, and like to be run REAL hard.  For me, that lets me run a 97 faster than I can a 12, and faster than most folks can run a 12.   I find I bind the feed system on a 12 when I try to go real fast - on both my 12s that were last worked on by two of the most knowledgeable 12 smiths working in 2009.. Few gunsmiths still know how to repair/tune a 97 properly.  But then few gunsmiths know how to work on a 12 properly too.   Parts fall off of lots of the Chinese guns if screws are not kept tight, and loctited in some cases.  Parts for either Winchesters or Chinese guns are hard to come by.  I made a carrier pin for my main IAC 97 last week, because I didn't want to search for what could have been a long time for one.

Either one can be learned and kept running with a suitable amount of work.  

 

Strategy to buy

Let me suggest something to think about.  Since you have a 97, try shooting it. If it works well enough for local matches, shoot it for the next 9 months.  At end of next waterfowl season in your area, and if you are still gung-ho-Marine over Wild Bunch, go buy the 12 if still there or another one that may have caught your eye.  I'd almost bet used shotgun prices will be same or lower at that time.  In fact, if that M12 is still there, offer $500 this time.  As many Model 12s as are out in gun safes, 50 other elderly shotgun shooter's guns will probably enter the market within 25 miles of you over the next year.   It's not a hard gun to find if you need one on short notice and work at it.  Likewise, if you have a 97 failure that can't be fixed quickly, go find a 12 to try.

I like both 12s and 97s.  I LOVE 3 of my 97s.  And hate two (a worn out Winchester, and an early Norinco with white wood stocks and lots of problems). 

One of the best recommendations - locate a real good gunsmith who knows how to work your selected shotgun over, and buy him a nice Christmas present every year from here on out!

good luck, GJ

Edited March 29, 2023 by Garrison Joe

[Eyesa]

GJ,

Much Obliged for such a great tutorial. Every bit of your advice makes perfect sense. And the best part, I get to keep the dollars for something else. 

Thank you

EH
 

[Tully Mars]

There's nothing wrong with 97's or Norinco 97's if they run well. Personally I like the feeling of the M12, and no longer use a 97'. GJ is correct, some folks bind the action bar on the M12, whereas the 97's is thicker material. In the past I've broken action hooks and action screws on the 97'. Typically, neither are easy to fix. M12's have far fewer parts to deal with.

GJ's suggestion of using your Norinco for awhile is a good one. You may decide it works great. 

Prices on M12's are all over the place. Nicer ones can be $600 on up, if you look around and take your time, you can find them for $3-500. I like the ones with a flag on the carrier, and barrel 20-24". Of course the barrel can always be cut down.

Regarding firing pins, I've broken two over the years. 

One thing to check when handling the M12, open the action, hold the trigger down as you close the action, the hammer should not fall until the bolt closes. If it's falling before that you'll kick rounds out with light strikes if you slam fire. It can be fixed.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

I've had several '97s. I didn't like how they feel even after I had them worked on, too many moving parts. And they do break.

I've broken firing pins in the M12. If you're lucky the tip breaks off so that it stays in the bolt and the gun still fires. Also seen folks break a firing pin at a major match, wrecks your score. Boggus Deal has solved that so get a new firing pin from him.

When buying a M12 lookup the serial number and find out when it was made. I would buy only those made in the 1950's, or at least post WWII. They will be your best quality. There are a lot of them out there. 

And what ever you do, do not buy a duck gun! These M12s have a longer chamber and some different internals. Only about 1 out of 10 work well enough to use in our game. You will break the bank trying to get it to work.

JFN

[Renegade Roper]

I personally love the 12's and absolutely hate the 97's.  They snake bite me even just picking one up.  I am pretty sure they do it on purpose, LOL.  My model 12's (6 and counting, all smoothed up) all feel smoother than my 97's (one Winny & one Coyote Cap Norinco).  4 of my 12's have the flag and I like them better.  Disclaimer: I am a double shooter for CAS and although I am decent with the 12 if I actually practiced with it and became proficient with it I would probably experience more mechanical issues but to date have only had a firing pin break on one of them and it was an older well used gun.  Yes I am a gun hoarder but when you go to gun auctions and can pick them up for $200-300 they tend to follow you home somehow...

Roper

An admitted model 12 addict

[Boggus Deal]

Having actually shot and worked on both pretty extensively, the Model 12 is the way to go. More made by Winchester, for a reason. A third or more less parts and a lot less intricate parts. Even with the afore mentioned firing pin issue, which 90% of the time the gun will still function, the Model 12 is just an all around better gun.

Think of a Model T Ford compared to a 1965 Mustang. 

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

I’d say “run what ya brung” for a while, assuming your ‘97 replica operates properly.  You can watch for a better deal on a Model 12.

I like the Model 12 but still am getting a feel for it.  I shot a ‘97 in cowboy for my first few years and am more comfortable with it.

[Eyesa]

I don't have much experience with a 97 due to my bum right shoulder. I can't hold the weight up to load over the top and can't really reach that high to load right handed. That said, being that all the shells are loaded at the loading table for WB, I think I'll be fine with it for WB. Have to start practicing with it to verify reliability. I also have the option of using Ellie's CB model.

Thanks for the opinions guys. Most appreciated.

EH

[Blackfoot]

Some folks think of a model 12 as a gussied-up or improved 97.  Forget it!  A model 12 is a totally different  design, done by a different firearm designer.

Blackfoot

[Hollifer A. Dollar]

SASS made the 12 legal not long after I shot my first WB match (borrowed a 97 from Abe E.S. Corpus for that one) so I bought a 12.  I found a 12 on gunbroker for less than $300.  It was made in 1927, the bluing has turned the nice antique brown & the action is smooth but not overly light.  The stock had a crack through the pistol grip, but I glued that & you can barely tell it is there.  I cut the barrel to 20", put on a new bead & have not done anything else to it.  It shoots great if you run it like you stole it.

I have seen 97s break right & left over the years but have yet to see a 12 failure that wasn't shooter-induced.  I shoot a double for CAS so I refuse to own a 97!

Holler

[Three Foot Johnson]

With the proliferation of good used Model 12's, $600 sounds high, but everything's gone up the past couple years so who knows.

I switched to a Model 12 in 2019. The first one (pictured), a 1959 model, was off Gunbroker, and the seller stressed all the bad things about it and none of the good things. The stock was speckled with blue paint, the mag tube was dented in a couple places and wouldn't load or feed shells, one of the mag tube cap screws was missing, the mag tube was put on 180 degrees off so it wouldn't lock into place and was held there by a heavy piece of wire (coathanger wire) twisted tight instead, the barrel had a small bulge about three inches back (I was going to cut it anyway, so no big deal), the slide handle retaining spring was missing (a totally unnecessary part for function), it was covered in light rust freckling, and the action was full of old dried grease making it stiff to operate. My winning bid was $116. I took it apart, cleaned it, cut the barrel, remounted the sight bead, turned out a plug to tap through the mag tube and work the dents out, found a screw in the parts bin for the end cap, and ordered the slide handle retaining spring from Numrich's, because why not? Anyway, all the work was pretty basic and only took a few hours. It's been my main match WB shotgun ever since.

I won another one later the same year, a 1937 model in excellent condition for $275 from GT Distributors, a police supplier in Austin, TX, that had "Bayside police" electric penciled on one side of the receiver, Bayside being a tiny community of less than 300 about 25 miles north of Corpus Christi. It had already been professionally cut down, so it was ready to go, and likely just rode around in the town's only police car for several years until it was disbanded and the shotgun ended up at the Austin store.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Three Foot Johnson