WTC?

[Boomstick Bruce]

Shooter engages pistol targets in correct order with no misses. End of stage, shooter clears pistol as per TO instructions and ejects a live round. All targets were engaged and shot clean. Obviously one of the 4 mags had 8 rounds, unknown which mag. WTC?

[Flying W Ramrod]

SDQ. WBSHB Page 21 "A cocked, loaded firearm leaving the shooter’s hand."

Edited October 4, 2022 by Flying W Ramrod

[Equanimous Phil]

2 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

SDQ. WBSHB Page 21 "A cocked, loaded firearm leaving the shooter’s hand."

Based on the information in the original post, the pistol does not necessarily left the shooter's hand between first racking and clearing it. And imho, even if it was restaged at a time it would/should have been caught then if it was loaded (but I am looking forward to the experts).

So, I would call a P: Use of “illegally acquired” ammunition. (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner, or overloaded ammunition), WBSHB p.21

WBSHB p.31: Overloaded Rounds – [...] Pistol: Loading more than 7 rounds in a magazine and/or loading, during a course of fire, more rounds than the stage description requires.

The clearing of the pistol was according procedure: UNLOAD and SHOW CLEAR: This means remove any live rounds and the magazine if one is inserted, WBSHB p.8

[C.N. Double]

Assuming the shooter never moved with or discarded the pistol, no call. Shooter didn't use overloaded ammo (that we can be sure of). 

 The TO should have noticed if one of the first three mags was overloaded. If they didn't, then we should give the benefit to the shooter and assume it was the final mag.

[Flying W Ramrod]

6 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Based on the information in the original post, the pistol does not necessarily left the shooter's hand between first racking and clearing it. And imho, even if it was restaged at a time it would/should have been caught then if it was loaded (but I am looking forward to the experts).

So, I would call a P: Use of “illegally acquired” ammunition. (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner, or overloaded ammunition), WBSHB p.21

WBSHB p.31: Overloaded Rounds – [...] Pistol: Loading more than 7 rounds in a magazine and/or loading, during a course of fire, more rounds than the stage description requires.

The clearing of the pistol was according procedure: UNLOAD and SHOW CLEAR: This means remove any live rounds and the magazine if one is inserted, WBSHB p.8

You are correct. With the information provided, we don't know if the pistol was the first or last gun used. Assuming the first, or second gun used, it would be an SDQ. if it was the last gun used, and the 8th round not used, it is a no call. There is no penalty for overloading the mag, only for using the overloaded round.

[Equanimous Phil]

3 hours ago, C.N. Double said:

Shooter didn't use overloaded ammo (that we can be sure of). 

25 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

There is no penalty for overloading the mag, only for using the overloaded round.

Thanks for pointing that out, I somehow missed the "use" part in the SHB.

I stumbled across another line in the SHB. On page 20 it states that there's a 5 second penalty for "each unfired round". While the round was overloaded it is still a round unfired. I guess it is not the intention of the rule and it's ment to be only applicable for rounds supposed to be shot, but the wording is not totally clear.

[Flying W Ramrod]

2 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

Thanks for pointing that out, I somehow missed the "use" part in the SHB.

I stumbled across another line in the SHB. On page 20 it states that there's a 5 second penalty for "each unfired round". While the round was overloaded it is still a round unfired. I guess it is not the intention of the rule and it's ment to be only applicable for rounds supposed to be shot, but the wording is not totally clear.

No sir. The "overloaded" round is non-existent until fired, or ends up under the hammer of a closed, discarded, pistol, then it causes a problem.

Regards

Edited October 4, 2022 by Flying W Ramrod

[Tully Mars]

17 hours ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

Shooter engages pistol targets in correct order with no misses. End of stage, shooter clears pistol as per TO instructions and ejects a live round. All targets were engaged and shot clean. Obviously one of the 4 mags had 8 rounds, unknown which mag. WTC?

Based on the provided information, there's to many unknowns to make a call.

If the 1911 was the last gun used, never left the shooters hands, and the shooter never changed positions, and the overloaded mag was the fourth magazine. = No Call, as per C. N. Doulbe's post.

If the loaded pistol left the shooter's hand loaded = SDQ

If it was one of the earlier mags that was overloaded, illegal ammunition was used = Procedural and a miss for the legal round not fired

If the shooter moved with a round in the chamber = SDQ

 

 

[Abe E.S. Corpus]

I agree that the overloaded magazine is a “no call” unless the extra round is fired.  
 

Interesting question in two comments as to which magazine held the extra round.  If eight rounds were fired from any of the first three (of four) magazines, different result.

When the shooter is not changing locations, making tactical reloads legal, it can be harder to keep track of rounds fired from a magazine.  Back in the “all reloads from slide lock” days, it was easier.  Not that I want to go back!

[J. Frank Norfleet]

If the 8th round had been in any of the first three mags it wouldn't have gone to slide lock after firing 7 rounds. Shooter would have inserted a fresh mag and racked the slide and the 8th round would have been ejected. If he was doing tac reloads after 6 rounds then it would have been left in the mag and been dropped with the mag. Time to get 7 round mags.

JFN

Edited October 6, 2022 by J. Frank Norfleet

[Legendary Lawman]

C.N. Double and Tully Mars are both correct in their explanations.  The big issue here is that the original situation was very poorly explained, leading to too many suppositions having to be made before any conclusion could be drawn. This thread does point out the importance of the TO counting the shots and watching the gun. 

As an example, assuming the shooter did not have to move with the pistol during the stage, at some time during the reloading of the 1911, the TO should have counted 7 shots and noticed that the slide was still forward.  Continuing to count 7 shots during each reload and the slide staying forward, they should have then been aware that the slide was still forward at the end of the string.  They could then direct the gun to be cleared safely and would be able to unequivocally state that an overloaded round was used.  Otherwise, as pointed out, if the extra round was discovered at the end of the string, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter and as long as the shooter did not move and the gun did not leave the shooter's hand, it is a no call.

Postings like these can be great learning experiences and fun to follow but only if the person posting is clear and complete in their explanation of the situation.

[Garrison Joe]

^^ double like this post

GJ