Garrison Joe

Doesn't go to slide lock when last round is fired? Typically, ammo is too weak or something in the conversion kit is too tight a fit or too heavy a spring, to let the slide be pushed back far enough to trip the slide lock. What brands of ammo have you tried? .22 conversion kits have a long history of being very finicky. A good target pistol gunsmith would be the best solution I can recommend. good luck, GJ

I believe you will get a MUCH more accurate list of the Modern features that good shooters look for in a Modern gun if you wait for a good Modern category shooter to chime in. I've shot Traditional with a Colt Government Series 70 for all my time in Wild Bunch. But I'd start with at least considering: * highest possible performance/reliability from magazines (not just sticking with maker's magazines without trying others) * fully adjustable rear sights * front slide serrations (in addition to those on rear of slide) * front grip frame and trigger guard checkering (checkering can really be any style, too) * relieved/lowered ejection port * beavertail grip safety * beveled magazine well * extended length mag release button and slide release, if you find that helps your speed (since we never have to engage the thumb safety, it matters little if it is upgraded) * full length recoil spring guide, if you like those * match trigger * no firing pin interlock safety It's always good to take a look at some of the higher end models from Wilson, Baer, Kimber, etc. to see the common "upgraded features" the market is making available today. And to get out to local matches and ask in person. good luck, GJ

What category do you intend to shoot (Traditional - one handed, or Modern - two handed)? Gotta decide that before ANYTHING else, because you may get a gun that won't fit in the category without a lot of work (even more cost and time delay). If you can't answer that, and even if you can, go out to matches and try guns out. Buying just because something caught your eye may work for plinking type shooting (nothing on the line), but it is usually less than a good choice when jumping into the game where you will want to do as well as you can compared to other shooters in your category. That Ruger 1911 Standard is a modern gun (to Wild Bunch rules) because of the rear sight (even though it is a non-adjustable sight system), but with very few of the allowed modern upgrades. If you are prone to want to try all the bells and whistles for your guns, you would be starting very low on the ladder and have to spend bunches to upgrade that model. That Ruger is kind of in-between categories - illegal for Traditional and not capable enough to keep up with some of the top Modern shooters without a lot of work. Then you ask about a "used" but didn't tell us a used what, and in what kind of condition. Again, those things matter. A used Colt or a used RIA - there would be almost no comparison because the Colt is likely twice the shooter's gun than the RIA. Sounds like you really need more experience with what you want to do in WB and what gun you really want, before plunking down ANY money. Get out to a local match - they should be starting up soon even if they did not run this winter. I buy with intent and plan, rather than just because something might be on the shelf. I rarely have enjoyed guns that were "in stock" or on the used gun rack, and really enjoy something ordered that met my expectations all the way around, or a used gun that the original owner wanted to sell face-to-face to upgrade to something newer. good luck, GJ

I'd not even replace a firing pin on fear of failure unless you have no suitable backup. With that condition on the Model 12, that gun probably has not been shot enough to weaken the factory pin. Besides, you have your backup - take it to bigger matches every time! Pros and Cons - in my experience Model 12s are on average about 30 years newer than US made 97s. They have better tuned trigger systems and feed mechanisms. Better steel, especially compared to what Norinco used. MUCH better parts availability, but even with 12s, those may have to be used parts. 97s are loose guns, and like to be run REAL hard. For me, that lets me run a 97 faster than I can a 12, and faster than most folks can run a 12. I find I bind the feed system on a 12 when I try to go real fast - on both my 12s that were last worked on by two of the most knowledgeable 12 smiths working in 2009.. Few gunsmiths still know how to repair/tune a 97 properly. But then few gunsmiths know how to work on a 12 properly too. Parts fall off of lots of the Chinese guns if screws are not kept tight, and loctited in some cases. Parts for either Winchesters or Chinese guns are hard to come by. I made a carrier pin for my main IAC 97 last week, because I didn't want to search for what could have been a long time for one. Either one can be learned and kept running with a suitable amount of work. Strategy to buy Let me suggest something to think about. Since you have a 97, try shooting it. If it works well enough for local matches, shoot it for the next 9 months. At end of next waterfowl season in your area, and if you are still gung-ho-Marine over Wild Bunch, go buy the 12 if still there or another one that may have caught your eye. I'd almost bet used shotgun prices will be same or lower at that time. In fact, if that M12 is still there, offer $500 this time. As many Model 12s as are out in gun safes, 50 other elderly shotgun shooter's guns will probably enter the market within 25 miles of you over the next year. It's not a hard gun to find if you need one on short notice and work at it. Likewise, if you have a 97 failure that can't be fixed quickly, go find a 12 to try. I like both 12s and 97s. I LOVE 3 of my 97s. And hate two (a worn out Winchester, and an early Norinco with white wood stocks and lots of problems). One of the best recommendations - locate a real good gunsmith who knows how to work your selected shotgun over, and buy him a nice Christmas present every year from here on out! good luck, GJ

Just to expand on the better safety concept, the Range Officer holding the timer has training to at least WB RO level, and thus is much more qualified to perform an unloaded gun check than just the average (or worse, totally untrained new shooter) who is supposed to be checking long guns at the unloading table. Even worse, at times the "unloading table officer" (usually the previous shooter) has wandered off and the shooter has to wait, or holler for another shooter to come to the table and check guns. (Or, sometimes, they just check themselves and head for the cart). I understand commitment to tradition, but I doubt a serious review by qualified range safety officials would be real satisfied with how we often do things currently. good luck, GJ

Dropping your powder from 4.5 to to 4.1 grains WST will not lower your impact by more than about 1/2 inch at 25 yards, and we rarely shoot that far. Yes, you are loading warmer than you have to for a 230 grain slug. (I have found 1911 guns are pretty variable in the velocity each one will give with a particular load. So, I never assume that a load someone else uses will give a legal velocity in my guns. ALWAYS check with a chronograph. Preferably on a cold day. Too many shooters get surprised at big matches.) good luck, GJ

I make it a habit to change an extractor in "important" 1911s about every 10 years, needs it or not. I like a Bill Wilson "bulletproof" extractor. I think they are worth the money, but even those need to be checked and tuned. https://www.1911forum.com/threads/wilson-combat-bullet-proof-vs-regular-wilson-parts.507616/ GJ

First, look for brass strike marks on the slide, and dents in the fired brass. If you are getting marks/dents, and the ejection port has not been opened like most modern 1911 guns have, it would be worth it to relieve the port area especially at the spots with strike marks. That said, I run two Colt Series 70s which do not have the factory ejection port opened and they NEVER get brass strikes and VERY rarely do I get any brass back that is dinged up (and that could be other-shooter-brass). All that comes from getting the extractor tensioned and tuned properly. Why does tuning of the EXTRACTOR fix these kind of problems? It is the part that has the grasp on the rim of the case. Yes, i know there are aftermarket ejectors that are used often, some are longer nosed than factory length, and some have different angles. All they do, though, is give the case a kick when the slide gets to the right place. BUT - In our 5" barrel government size guns, the ejector plays a small role in removing cases, and tinkering with it rarely fixes the problem of random or consistent poor case removal. Leave the factory ejector blade installed. In a short barrel gun, an extended nose ejector may really help, though. So, how can tuning of the extractor be done? First, make sure you have one that is correctly tensioned and not "sprung" so tension is not produced consistently. Second, correct any extractor nose shape. Third, make sure the firing pin stop fits the extractor and is not loose. Here's a short walkthrough of this by one of the MASTER 1911 smiths - Bill Wilson https://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm Be sure you perform the extractor-grip shake test in the "Correct Tension" section. And the Yam test. Quick and easy ways to spot problems. And when you understand all that, then read and re-read this one: https://www.1911forum.com/threads/steve-in-allentown-extractor-fitting.829865/ It is an engineering approach to tuning the extractor, and will require looking at the pictures, then your own gun, then measuring stuff with at least a vernier caliper, to fully understand just how to adjust the extractor shape and positioning, and the firing pin stop and ejector. As explained in this second article, tossing of fired cases should be at about 4 o'clock (where down range is 12 o'clock), and about 45 degrees above the horizon. NOT straight up, not straight back. And if the recoil and main springs match the power of your ammo well, cases are tossed 4 to 8 feet from where you are standing. (I'd guess your random case-in-the-face problem is due to weak tension on the extractor. That one cause is probably the most common reason that 1911s don't eject cases consistently.) Let me know if that pans out. good luck, GJ

Loading 1911 ammo too short can leave the mouth floating in air over the nose. That's essentially a sharp edge waiting to catch on the back end of barrel, or somewhere else. Loading 1911 ammo too long, as you have seen, can jam the bullet shank into the throat/leade of the barrel. There is often about 20-30 thousandths or so of "good enough, up to perfect" tolerance for over all length even with lead bullet loads, but some guns are pickier than that. As you found out. good luck, GJ

I am all for clearing our long guns on the line. Minimal movement with uncleared guns. Minimal disruption to scoring by having to put in "round discovered" penalties on the score pad/sheet. Everything to gain, nothing to lose but a few seconds of time for brassers to go forward. It will be one more point that ticks off the sensitive Cowboy shooters if your club runs WB and cowboy in same posse (a really bad idea IMHO). good luck, GJ

If you don't want to change die settings on that feller's machine, buy your own die set, or at least a seater die, and set it to make suitable ammo for your gun(s). It's your ammo, I suppose you are paying for the cost of components, and you are going to suffer if the ammo continues to jam. One die is a LOT cheaper fix than buying your own loading setup. Sometimes you have to be assertive about what you have happen. good luck, GJ

Barrels on 1911s have a very short throat (transition from chamber to rifling). Your ammo obviously has some of the shank of the slug sticking out past the case mouth, and that catches on your Taylors gun throat (probably an RIA from Philippines, perhaps labeled for Taylors). There are some throat reamers available that can lengthen the throat and let your ammo chamber. A good 1911 smith would know exactly how to do that. But, your "loader" seems to have made a mistake, by seating the slug so that the part sticking out of the case is not just the rounded nose but also some of the cylindrical shank of the lower part of the bullet. That fat shank will not fit in most throats, which taper from about 0.473" right in front of chamber down to 0.452" at the barrel bore/grooves fairly quickly. Defective barrel? No, just shorter throat than most. Will they warranty it? Doubt it. They will stuff some FMJ factory ammo in it and if that feeds, they probably will say - it feeds factory! Your ammo is wrong! Modify barrel - pretty easy. Fix the loading of ammo - even easier and no cost! Sometimes you just have to fix the real problem, not hack a work around. But if you want to read more about this situation, here's a discussion of semi-auto throat reaming: https://www.1911forum.com/threads/throat-leade-reaming.983074/ good luck, GJ

Think you need to wait for the revised 2023 rules to come out. If in mean time, you want to be totally "safe" from misunderstanding of the rules by yourself or the spotters/RO, then yes, restage your shotgun with no rounds left in mag tube IF you still need to use it again during stage. Removes all argument. Ouch. GJ

LL - this is the troublesome statement: More than one shotgun SEQUENCE means loading table count is limited to what the first sequence requires,by this rule. Which sometimes is different than the safe condition when restaged for further use rule you quoted. If this is not what we all think the rules should force us to do, then the "initial" word needs to be removed, and even better, clearly state "the number of rounds required for ALL shotgun targets" of the stage. Thanks! GJ

The use of two phrases that to me seem to mean just about the same in these rules (and in common use in stage descriptions) appears to be the cause of confusion. They are: "target sequence" and "shooting string" Only the term "shooting string" is defined in the Definitions section of the rule book: What I have seen in common usage in WB is for "target sequence" to mean the same thing, perhaps becoming more specific ONLY if there is a target order required for the string - like "using a left to right sweep." The key to these definitions of the shooting string or target sequence is WHEN the firearm type in use changes in the stage. If the shooter continues using the shotgun (not changing to another type), but has safe movement from one position to another, that is all one shooting string, and also one target sequence (where no order beyond the right set of targets are shot before moving and shooting the left set of targets). Thus, shooting 2 SG targets from right and then moving to the left position to shoot 4 targets would be only one shooting string or one target sequence. Your scenario can shot with a single SG shooting string. If done so, never restaging the shotgun for future use, then the shotgun can be brought to the line loaded with all six rounds and shot as a single string with movement. Your scenario can also be shot by a shooter (who perhaps is not paying attention) as two shooting strings, by restaging the shotgun after moving to the left position, and firing another type of gun (rifle or pistol) before shooting the left SG targets. There would now be two SG strings, and the right one would be the "initial target sequence" and the left one would be the "second target sequence" Per the rule about "initial target sequence", the shotgun should only have been loaded and brought to the line with 2 rounds. 4 rounds would have to be loaded when beginning the "second target sequence" for the shotgun. So, it does make a difference about how the stage is written, or how the shooter decides to shoot a stage that is loosely written. The shooter is still responsible for maintaining safe conditions for movement with shotgun and for safe restaging of a shotgun for further use: Using the term "split shotgun targets" in the scenario does not clearly define HOW the shooter will have to shoot, IMHO. Targets do not have to be split into two physical locations to cause a "split target sequence". Split means that there is more than one sequence for a given gun. Changing gun type is what causes a split. Not changing shooting position. Left and right placed targets, if shot by shotgun continuously (not changing gun types), still is all one shooting sequence (is not a split sequence). In my opinion, a stage description should NOT use "split SG targets" - it has uncertain meaning. Did the stage as written use "split" anywhere in it? If it did, please quote what the stage description said. BTW - A favorite "trick" (P prone) stage in WB is to write a scenario that shooter shoot SG from three positions, with say, pistol before SG at 1, rifle before SG at 2, and more pistol before SG at 3. That makes three SG sequences. Shooter has to load 2 at the loading table, then 2 more at the second position, and 2 more at the third position. Doing otherwise overloads the shotgun, and the overloaded rounds are "illegally acquired ammunition." Now, do we need another definition added for "target sequence"? Or do we all agree that the two terms are just about the same? That is a good question. good luck, GJ

Does it have a rail? Remove - it's illegal in Traditional. Arched mainspring housing? Replace with straight anodized aluminum or plastic one. Steel trigger? Replace with aluminum. It is allowed to make ejection port relief cuts even on a Traditional gun, and a good idea too unless your ejection is well tuned. Do you have a base pad on that magazine? Remove. And check with several of your mags - some may be heavier than others. And, you are allowed a grip cut at the magazine release for "relief" - there is no spec'd limit on how much that relief can be (hint). You are also allowed beveling of the magazine well. I bevel enough that the bottom edge of the frame is close to a "knife edge." As mentioned above, it is real unusual for a real govt spec gun to come in that heavy. My Colt series 70 from the 1970s is only 37.5 or so. You are only looking for a half ounce shaving off, since the weight limit for Traditional is 40 ounces. good luck, GJ

So, now you need to really put on your inspector vision glasses (or Sherlock Holmes magnifying glass) and find exactly the spot that is marking the nose of the bullet. The coating of the ramp (mentioned above) should quickly tell you. If it is that lower left side of the feed ramp that is the contact point, that is probably where you need to concentrate your polishing/reshaping work. Since you can clear the jam with just light jiggling of the slide, that says to me you won't have to remove a lot of the ramp metal. So, that is as good as the news gets right now. Since it's a mark that is unsymmetrical asymmetrical, it's a problem with only one side of the ramp catching the nose. good luck, GJ

Paint the ramp with some Dyekem fluid or a black marker. Let dry a few minutes. Test your jam again, a streak of raw metal should show where a jam contact is. GJ

If the bullet tip shows NO contact damage from the ramp, you could also have a very tight extractor. That would be a simple fix. You can do the "extractor tension shake test" yourself in 5 minutes and see if that might be the problem. However, considering that 230 grain ammo fed and 200 grain ammo (having a different nose shape, I'll bet) did not, it probably eliminates the tight extractor issue. Since all your ammo should have the same extractor groove shape regardless of the bullet shape you load. And, by the way, I doubt seriously that you are making (consistently) a 150 power factor with a 200 grain slug over 4.2 grains of WST. I load 4.6 to 4.7 grains of WST with a 200 grain slug and quite consistently get 168 power factor. 4.2 grains of WST is the often-used load with a 230 grain lead RN slug. You will probably want to raise that powder charge a smidge - never run Wild Bunch at 152 or even worse 150 PF average. good luck, GJ

Meaning you have a pre-Kahr-company-takeover, 1980s or early 90s gun made in West Hurley, New York? If so, you have a rough road ahead of you I would guess. For reference, read this quote on a post in the 1911 Forum from 2016: Serial number starts AOC and the following numbers below 50000? West Hurley for certain. If that is true, you may wish to read the whole thread at: https://www.1911forum.com/search/359589/?q=west+hurley&o=relevance good luck, GJ

Looks matter only a little. The feeding performance in the field is the important part. It could be that the left hand frame just was made a little short of material, so the same ramp milling took different amounts off. The picture that tells us the most is HOW the first round out of magazine comes to a halt when trying to chamber it. And, are you sling-shotting the slide or dropping the slide with the release lever? And what spring weights did you install? Like on most problems with the 1911, the hard part is finding the exact problem. The easy part is usually fixing the problem. Now that your jam pictures are up, I'd guess the nose is catching on the very lowest (beginning) part of the ramp. Does the bullet nose show any marks on it like it ran into a sharp edge? If when you have a jam, can you "push the slide through the jam", which could show you even more clearly what is catching the nose of the round. Does the round show any other marks on it that indicate other contact points? Now, what to do next is kinda based on your previous gunsmithing success. I (myself) would first try smoothing the feed ramp with some cratex abrasive tips, attempting to turn that sharp edge of the "bottom left" side of the ramp into a smoother and broader shape. NOT done with a dremel tool or a milling machine because you likely don't have the skills to know what to cut and how to control a perfect cut. You will need to be sure that the "nose contact point" on the ramp is what you are working on. Smooth a little, clean and assemble and test again. If you tried a good, fairly recent Colt magazine, then you can be pretty sure this is not a magazine issue. But I get the best feeding from Tripp magazines, just saying. If this starts to give you the "willies", then you can be certain a gunsmith should take a look. This should not be a difficult task for a good 1911 gunsmith. Properly ramped and throated, a 1911 should be able to feed a fully stuffed magazine of 185 grain hollow points or the good old 200 grain H&G68 semiwadcutter bullet 100% reliably. As well as your short-nosed 200 RN. As well, it should feed empty cases! Feeding a 230 grain RN shaped like a FMJ load - that's a cake walk and proof of almost nothing (perhaps why the factory can get away shipping a gun with a poorly cut feed ramp?). Now, looking at your loaded round - I see a bunch of bullet shank sticking out above the case mouth. This can quite easily impact into the forcing cone ahead of the chamber. I like to see the intersection point between the shank (cylindrical portion) and the beginning part of the ogive (the nose) be seated right at the case mouth, meaning a little shorter OAL than your pic shows. If you send the gun off to a smith, make up rounds that you want to be sure will feed in your gun and include them. Otherwise, they may test with jacketed loads and make the mistake of not really fixing it for lead ammo. good luck, GJ

Why would it be legal? It's not a model 12 (or 93 or 97). And, it's a modern 21st century design! The only trenches this could have been used in are in the SouthEast (SE of Ukraine!) good luck, GJ

One way I've seen chronographing done is for the selected shooters to be approached when at the loading table and asked to give up ten pistol rounds and same number of rifle rounds. Done at loading table so that loads the shooter actually uses are tested, not just "special box of ammo from the cart." Five rounds get shot over chrono from the match's selected firearms. If some unusual caliber rifle is being used, the competitor's rifle is used by match officials at a time which does not interrupt the stage. One round is pulled apart and bullet weight is obtained. Failures of the 5-shot average power factor (calculated from average velocity and actual weight of bullet) to make minimum power factor are retested. The shooter is given one more chance, providing their own firearms and the match officials will shoot the remaining collected ammo. Done because some competitor guns show higher velocities than the match test firearms might. Failure to make power factor even by one-tenth of a unit is a Match DQ from Scoring, with shooter allowed to finish match but not eligible for awards. Testing before match starts is encouraged. How this will ensure the shooter's actual match ammo is what is tested is not described, however. All this is covered pretty well in the Wild Bunch Range Operations / Match Directors Handbook, Appendix B. Match directors are allowed deviations from the full procedures written there, as long as testing is done consistently. good luck, GJ

Almost any 1911 can be easily set to a 4 pound crisp pull with no creep. If your factory trigger is more than about 5 pounds, it needs work. The lighter mainspring we talked about (above) will take off some pull weight. A good quality sear spring (the three leaf thingy) sometimes helps, as does taking out that Series 80 FP interlock. Auto Ordnance is not well known for doing much tuning on their guns, and it's not surprising that you got a poor trigger. Several reviews I have read call out the need for fire control tuning, as well. But most improvement on a 1911 will come from having a practicing 1911 smith work a little magic with stones and polishing. Many things to look at, and the pro knows which ones yours might need. Things like checking and setting the sear-to-hammer contact correctly make a BIG difference. That ammo should work real well, and certainly will be powerful enough for Wild Bunch. good luck, GJ

Both are symptoms of too much recoil spring pressure, surprised you didn't have cases falling right on your boot, too. Take out the buffer and don't put another in. Then check for how your cases eject. good luck, GJ