Garrison Joe

Just shows you how little folks selling guns know, or are willing to disclose. BTW - there will most likely be no Model 12 you can buy that is "ready to go" for Wild Bunch. If you buy one from a reputable fellow WB shooter, then yes, you might find one RTG. One way to do that is to keep a close eye on the Wild Bunch Classifieds forum. Find a local gunsmith that knows how to work on WB shotguns (perhaps folks at Old West Guns and Gunsmithing - Squibber) and frequent them. https://www.facebook.com/oldwestgunsandrepair/ From buying a couple of Model 12 guns through GunBroker, I can tell you these 60-100 year old firearms are often in need of a least two major repairs EACH that have to be fixed, and then you will want tuning and barrel shortening on them as well. There is no such thing as a guaranteed fine, like-new shape Winchester 12 (or 97, either) for bargain prices. Unless you can take the time to go to lots of estate/garage sales and just happen to find the proverbial unicorn - "Grandpa's old shotgun - don't know what it is - how about $200?" good luck, GJ

"seeing shell capacity" - do you mean you have tested some 12s by trying to fill the magazine, or you are reading stuff, and finding variances (or even errors) in what was written about the 12 in some references? The Model 12 shotgun was built to hold 6 rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. Some may only take 5 rounds in the magazine and have them feed properly, due to tolerances, magazine spring design and manufacturing defects. With the modifications done for a Wild Bunch shotgun, shorter followers and shorter springs can be installed to make sure 6 rounds of 2 3/4" ammo will fit and feed. Now, there is a common "cheap" Model 12 variant, the Model 25. It was built with a 6 round magazine too. It was built in sold, non-takedown frame only, and only in 12 gauge. Should be marked on the barrel as a Model 25. Note - not legal in Wild Bunch under current rules. Within the regular Model 12 line, there was a 3" chambered Heavy Duck Gun. That is one to avoid for Wild Bunch, due to the design variations and hard to find parts. It usually is hard to slick up. Waterfowl hunting regulations limit repeater shotguns to holding 3 rounds at a time, so a magazine limiter plug that limits the rounds in the magazine to just two is commonly used. If you can't load at least 5 rounds in the tube, there could be a limiter plug - it's usually wooden or plastic and fits inside the coils of the magazine spring. There could also be rust, dirt, mouse nests, dents and other problems with the magazine tube that prevent properly filling it. So, disassemble the shotgun to the point that you can take out the magazine spring and follower, and you will probably find the problem, if there is one. good luck, GJ

I find that with a 10-8 National Match rear sight, the front sight blade needs to be about 0.130" wide to leave just enough gap on each side for my eyes to center the front with even gaps when shooting distant targets. That 0.190" would be rather chunky and probably need any rear opened up a good amount. good luck, GJ

Yes, it's legal for Traditional. You can tell because the rule is stated in the allowed modifications lists for Traditional and Modern pistols. Both my WB guns are so modified, and about as deep as the picture. Except I saw no need to funnel the mainspring housing more than just a slight bevel, as I chamfered the bottom front of the frame. Haven't missed yet slamming a mag home. good luck, GJ

Main difference between one maker's 7 round or 8 round 1911 magazine is going to be a slightly weaker spring in the 8 rounder, thus allowing an extra round to be stuck in. I'll take the 7 rounder for best reliability of feeding, especially since you can't use the eighth round out of the magazine for our game. And if you are using your game magazines for self defense, get additional real reliable magazines for the carry/house gun and keep your game magazines, which will get dropped, stepped on and filled with dirt every match, marked and stored separately. good luck, GJ

Although Tripp magazines in the 7-round Government frame size are probably the most commonly used magazines anymore (because of their feeding reliability and strong construction), many magazines are legal and work well. Some mags that are "standard length" (cannot extend below grip frame) will hold 8 rounds, but I've never seen a WB match where that extra round can be legally loaded and used. Brands like Chip McCormick Colt I can vouch for personally. Sure others will add favorites they have used. good luck, GJ

Right off Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook for 750 FPS - I'd say 5.6 or 5.7 grains with a 200 gr slug will get you very close to 750 FPS, which would be the minimal 150 PF. Of course, you WILL want to chronograph as most 1911s have some variability in what speed a load gives. Been 45 years since I shot Unique loads - will still work well, though. And I NEVER load just for minimum powder factor. About 165 PF is the goal I have for all my Wild Bunch match ammo. I've never seen a can of Unique that had loading data for 200 grain bullets in .45 auto on it. The current production 1 pound bottle sure doesn't. So I don't know WHAT you were loading to have it "feel hot." good luck, GJ

Do the math if you want to know it precisely. Power Factor = Muzzle Velocity (fps) X Bullet Weight (grains) / 1000 Difference between a 230 grain bullet and a 245 grain bullet won't let you drop the velocity very much. MAYBE you will feel a little less recoil. But I doubt it. Shoot a lot what you will practice and fire matches with, and it won't matter much. Even if you are shooting in the top 10% of the "class." good luck, GJ

Soft alloys are denser than hard ones (with lino added - it's the additional antimony that lightens the density), so that's why you have heavy weights with soft alloys. If you are not leading and the loads feed reliably, continue using your soft alloy. No need to find linotype to add, as it just runs up the cost. good luck, GJ

How legal and popular are modern pistol action shooting games in Europe? If some of those are not allowed or have poor participation, that could be one factor favoring Wild Bunch. Glad you went, FJT! good luck, GJ

That is the typical color of partially burned powder due to low chamber pressures (below what it takes to burn the powder cleanly). Not a problem, as long as you pay attention to whether the load works in cold weather, and stays consistent. Probably need to clean a little more often to help keep action clear. I see that with light TiteGroup loads, too. good luck, GJ

I'd just scrape that lead ring and shoot 'em. Happens to one or two a hundred that I load if the slug starts slightly cocked. But then, I run lubed slugs. Worst it will do is give you some leading in front of the chamber. It'll clean up with some bronze wool on a brush. Barrel leading is not something to be terrified of - very easy to clean out of a 1911. If you pull 'em, you're tossing out, what, $40-50 worth of bullets. Good reminder - hardly any .45 RN bullets have exactly the same ogive profile. Always worth chamber checking every time you get a different vendor's slugs. good luck, GJ

I'd NOT use any 255 grain bullets in the .45 AUTO cartridge (aka, .45 ACP). It's too long to fit in the case without bulging many cases. SWC bullet design will feed in a well-throated 1911, but often jam up a factory, non-tuned 1911 by failing to feed up the feed ramp and into the chamber. And of course, you would not find that SWC bullet to feed well in a lever rifle, either. That is a bullet you might as well try to trade for something that will work much better. So, nope, I'll not even suggest a 255 grain recipe in the .45 auto. So, pick a 230 grain round nose, or 230 grain truncated cone, or a 200 grain truncated cone if you want no hassles with jamming during feeding. If you like a polymer coated bullet, the pistol is a great place to use it, as you will only do maybe half as much pistol cleaning. Bullseye and Unique have been launching 1911 loads since about 1920s, and still work wonderfully today. Save your Blue Dot - too slow. Save your Trail Boss for Cowboy - it's soon to disappear because of end of Australian production. good luck, GJ

Ditto I think with a rifle match shot for "minimum time with just penalties for misses" that the penalty for a miss should be larger than five seconds, as controlled aiming to hit a 100 yard target might take 3-4 seconds (where as aiming to engage a WB match target at 20 yards or less with either pistol or rifle might only need 1/2 second). Penalty for each miss needs to be such it becomes impossible to "miss fast enough to win", as it is in main matches. Something like 20 seconds or so. good luck, GJ

Maybe you are not logged in when all you get is the Report/Share on the 3 dots. Course, you only should get Edit and Delete on the post or reply message you created. (Could be the moderators get to edit/delete them also, usually they would on a forum board.) good luck, GJ

No, no height restrictions for holster or they would be in the rules. Remember to keep it simple. In WB, holster holds the 1911 till you need it, lets you draw cleanly, and you reholster off the clock. Hard to beat something about like this: https://www.mernickleholsters.com/shop/1911-Wild-Bunch-Classic-Style-Holster-Only-p314904869 Note the ejection port is covered, trigger covered (mostly) and the front drops half inch or so, for a little faster draw. Open toe. This one puts the grip just above the belt, letting fingers have clear access. Make enough mag holders to carry 6. Whether you like some rifle or shotgun shells on your gun belt (I don't), you will need to consider how you will carry some. Slides work for some folks. A separate belt just for a few S/G and a few rifle seems overkill to me. good luck, GJ

TIMOTHY! Wish I could come. Best of luck with it! GJ

Mitchell Mausers are not fakes. They are rebuilds, usually with a new stock. As long as they have original sights and have not been sporterized, they are legal for BAMM. Would a serious collector want one for his military collection? Probably not. But if you want a shooter, it would be worth considering. GJ

All of the Yugo Mausers (M24, M24/47 or the M47 Yugo Mauser) are good rifles for BAMM. That 44 you see on the side of action is the plant number = Preduzece 44. That plant is now Zastava Arms. It's a good plant that updated a lot of Model 24 Yugo Mausers (and modified M24s to 24/47) and made the M47. Do be aware that the magazine well is slightly shorter length on a Yugo Mauser than on German and Belgian (etc) Mausers. That shorter action means a standard Mauser stock will not fit a Yugo Mauser, and the Yugo's cannot feed a really long 8MM (aka 7.92MM) Mauser cartridge, but it will fit most ammo you would use for BAMM just fine. I have a couple of them, and since they got a new barrel in the late 1940s (Yugo under Communist regime), they are often very accurate. The M47 Yugos have been declared legal for WB as the design is considered WW II even if guns were actually built after the war. That French MAS you saw is also a good BAMM rifle, but the ammo is harder to find than the Mauser 8mm, which itself right now is about like Hen's Teeth. Sometimes Privi Partisan lots will hit some of the vendors. Another rifle that is a current favorite is the K31 straight pull Swiss rifle shooting 7.5x55 Swiss ammo. Also hard to find ammo for now. The K31 is a real tack driver, and usually well cared for by a fine Swiss militia man (or woman) during the 1940s and 50s. good luck, GJ

Thanks for the data on RS14 powder! Well, RS14 has a couple things not going for it. Haven't heard of anyone in USA carrying it, distributing it, etc. "absurdly expensive" - yeah, that is surely what I'd want to shoot action pistol with. One big reason I never used TB. The 300 Blackout shooters may want to pay that and search for that. I understand they were the ones driving the prices on the last supplies of TB out through the roof in the last year. SO many other good choices available to US shooters. good luck, GJ

Many powders will support your switch over. There is no powder closely comparable to Trail Boss, because of it's extremely fluffy consistency. But it's at the root a quick burning pistol cartridge powder. Many of those are around. Red Dot comes to mind first. Win Super Target (WST) is a long time, proven, highly accurate powder in the .45 auto. And it works in the .45 Colt cartridge too. Clay Dot is often available and will do anything that Red Dot can. And any of these three powders load a very nice WB 12 gauge shotshell, too. And if needed, probably another 15 powders on the market will do yeoman's duty. 231 and TiteGroup and Unique will work well, as well. Very little need for anxiousness about not having any great choices available. Better to pay attention to what powder(s) you can get most reliably, in case the next few years are anything like the last 3 years. And several periods of time before that. good luck, GJ

If a major match (state and above) is being held and the ROs are not current with RO training, I'd like to know so I don't spend time and money to come out. 😄 good luck, GJ

Shoot it a lot. But if you want faster results, look for tight rubbed spots in the blueing on the action and front end. The worst of these, stone lightly and try again. If this doesn't fix things, a trip to a good Model 12 shop is probably in order. Nu-Line in Missouri is one I have used for a major rebuild, they were "quick" and "reasonable cost." I'd bet your gunsmith free-with-purchase cleaning involved wiping off the bolt face and running a patch or two down the barrel. Not enough to solve stiff operation. good luck, GJ

I've written before about the things I've learned from Wilson and other 1911 builders, and my own experience shooting 1911s for 50 years, but here's a short discussion for Wild Bunch. Power factor we shoot in the .45 auto is about 160. Which compares to a factory .45 auto load that makes about 195 PF. So we shoot a light but not bullseye- target-light load. That is what "drives" your need for a 1911 recoil and main spring set. Several builders understand that the recoil spring and mainspring need to work as a balanced pair for best function and reliability. Both are fully active during the operation of the slide. The mainspring is not just "a hammer spring," it assists in taming part of the recoil of the slide. Keep them balanced with the mainspring three to five pounds heavier than the recoil spring. The 1911s coming from most makers today are sprung to handle that factory load 195 PF all day long, and run for 100 years (just about). And even shoot +P level loads. Colt uses (and has used) these spring weights with a simple single coil recoil and mainspring spring in a 5" 1911 in .45 auto for years: 16 pound recoil spring and a 23 pound mainspring. That gives long life and excellent function. But the slide can be a bear for some folks to retract, and to drop the slide release. The springs that I find are "strong enough" to let our lighter loads at 160 PF run reliably and without damage occurring to the gun and with easier racking and dropping of the slide, are: 14 to 15 pound recoil spring and 19 pound mainspring. With a broken-in smooth running gun, and a mainspring housing honed to remove any internal roughness. The Wilson guideline for checking that you have a proper weight of recoil and mainspring in the gun that I also follow is: Fire a magazine of the loads you will normally run. Mark where you were standing and where the center of the group of ejected brass fell. Measure that distance. If the distance the brass was tossed is less than about 5 feet, you have stronger springs than you need for that load. 5 to 10 feet - nice springs. More than 10 feet - weak springs that can be allowing damage to occur to the frame. Then check that well-manufactured rounds always fully feed from full magazines. Other problem areas (including ammo and mags) can affect that second check, but if the rest of the gun is running well, proper springs will never cause any problems feeding or ejecting. Trigger is driven by one leaf of the 3-legged sear spring. Try to just use a factory spring from a good maker - no bending or thinning. Then, when you replace THAT spring after 20,000 rounds or so, you can put a replacement in and be pretty certain it will still work. Firing pin spring is something I never tinker with by installing a non-factory weight spring. The 1911 hits a FP hard, no need to go to a light FP spring. And the factory spring seems to protect from unwanted firing of a dropped, off-thumb-safety gun. My advise - don't drop loaded 1911s! A spring that IS useful to swap with a lighter than factory part is the magazine release button spring. As often as we drop mags on the clock, you need to be 100% certain you get both good mag retention when shooting and fast reliable drops of mags when empty. Hope this helps. Just because a maker has specialty springs for special uses, you don't need to be buying them UNLESS YOU HAVE A WELL THOUGHT OUT REASON! good luck, GJ

I've found that, even with recent advances in metallurgy, tool steel ends up being more impact and wear resistant than even the "knife blade" stainless steels. Otherwise, die cutting and stamping tools would be made with stainless. Even my pocket knives are alloy steel rather than stainless. So, if you want to exact match an otherwise stainless gun, go stainless. Otherwise, the strongest blued steel part, bar stock or forged, is what I'd want. And the extractor in 1911? Only the rear end of it is visible to observers. So "optics" don't matter much at all on that part. good luck, GJ