Leaderboard

Since i was there at the beginnings of SASS, if not cowboy action itself... I'll let you in on a little, well-known fact at the time. The founders of SASS, aka the "Wild Bunch", were tired of the equipment race that had inundated IPSC. One of their stated goals was not to let Cowboy Action become the equipment race IPSC had become. Short stroked rifles became the norm before they were recognized as such. Most of the rules in cowboy action are in place because someone over stepped the bounds of good sportsmanship. I.e., "if it ain't against the rule, I can do it." And while you say I am being dishonest by preferring something that is disliked by someone else, I would say, please look in the mirror. We just happen to be looking at the issue from opposite sides. I happen to like the game as it was originally governed. 45ACP, .40+ caliber for the rifles... and while I detest the 1897, I didn't moan and cry about having to buy one to play the game. And it wasn't because I dislike pump shotguns... I happen to absolutely love my Remington 870 Riot gun, skeet gun & Wingmaster. But, if I had whined and cried about not being able to use it, and went about claiming it should be allowed 'cause I could use it in 3-Gun... that would be disingenuous. Instead, I went out and bought a couple, 3. When the mdl 12 was approved, I thought, let me give this a whirl and bought one. Mine must not be the best example, as... shhh... I prefer the '97. Let us simply agree to disagree on the base pad issue. If you want to lobby the TG's about changing that , keep it out of the Traditional categories. And lest you think I'm simply anti-base pad, I had to remove several rubber base pads from magazines so they'd comply with the rule at the time... My EDC is a Combat Commander, with its own set of magazines which kept those same ~¼" rubber base pads I removed magazines destined for WB use. I fully recognize their utility and aid to recharging the pistol. But... WB ain't practice for a life n' death encounter. It's a game. As a former sworn peace officer, I carried several different firearms in that career, adapting to them and adapting them to my preferences. However, gun games are not that. Each gun game has its own set of distinctive rules and norms... as well they should, otherwise they become simply mundane... My 3-Gun 1911 has a beavertail, extended thumb safety, slide release and a compensator, along with a stash of 8 round magazines with base pads of various sizes and contours. Nothing in WB precludes an IPSC shooter from participation, simply gives they a reason to buy another gun and develop additional skills. Nothing about trigger time in any gun sport is wasted in another gun sport. God bless.

SASS® Wild Bunch Action Shooting™ Effective January 1, 2026 SASS Led (Business Policy) Changes 1. Maximum pistol weight for the 1911 will be changed to 43 ounces. 2. SxS/Double shotguns must be staged open and empty. The provision to load under TO supervision will be removed, eliminating any contradiction to SASS’ firearm handling and safety covenants. 3. Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy will no longer be official WBAS Main match categories. They will be moved back to WBAS Side match status. 4. Lady & Junior WBAS categories will be protected. These categories will not be subject to minimum mandates and will be honored regardless of the number of entrants. 5. The age determination for the WBAS Senior category will be changed to 60+. 6. SASS will add Elder Statesman Wild Bunch and Grand Dame Wild Bunch as official categories- with the age determination of 70+. 7. SASS will add Classic Wild Bunch Categories. a. Classic Wild Bunch Modern b. Classic Wild Bunch Traditional *These “Classic” categories will carry the reinstated parameters for Power Factor and Firearm requirements; 12-gauge SG (Model 12 or 97), 1911 and Rifle in 40 cal. or larger, 150 PF minimum. Classic WBAS and will also be broken out into Senior and Elder Statesman/Grande Dame (with minimum entry mandates in place). 2026 Clarifications/SHB Edits 1. 1887/1901 loading procedure: At the loading table, load as many rounds as the 87/01 will hold – up to 6 in the magazine and carrier. Close the action on empty chamber, hammer must fall unimpeded. 2. Tie down holsters are legal. Appropriate verbiage will be added communicating it. 3. Dotted sights – Appropriate verbiage stating darkening dotted sights as a 1911 pistol modification in the Traditional category, is legal. 4. Shotgun gauge clarifications: Aside from the new Classic category parameters of 12-gauge, new verbiages will be added to simplify and clarify the acceptable gauge range for shotguns in WBAS. 5. The average pistol rounds of a WBAS Stage is 28 rounds.

I don't shoot WB any longer. Not because of any dispute with the rules, but because matches are not convenient to me. So I shoot Historic 3 Gun. But, shoot consistent with SASS rules, as nothing in H3G sez I can't. Although I do happen to like starting a stage in condition one. All of my magazines have welded flat baseplates, except one, a stainless Kim-Pro which has a flat removeable baseplate. But, then again, I learned to manipulate a 1911 during VN, using issue guns and GI magazines. Frankly, if you need to rely on a baseplate pad, whether it's leather, plastic, aluminum, steel, rubber or banana peels, you're relying on a crutch. Learn to seat a flat plate magazine. Tune your magazines to seat properly in your 1911 and your need for a extended pad goes away. Sloppy magazine control demands the use of a pad. By demanding pads, you're admitting to being a sloppy magazine handler. Much like the Frontiersman category in SASS cowboy matches... WB was never intended to be as "easy" as shooting a 1911 in other sports. Why should it be? What would be the draw for truly dedicated 1911 fans. If you enjoy shooting other gun games with a 1911 where the use of a basepad is allowed, mastering magazine control without one will not hurt your performance in those other games. Frankly, I don't recall any of you relatively new folks here when the fight was to end the "cowboy w/a 1911" era of 5 round maximums in magazines. Using what is legal in another shooting sport to justify your stance on what you think should be legal in SASS WB is disingenuous at best, at worst, whiney, cry-baby bull spit. Go ahead, take the high road, being disengenuos. Wild Bunch is based on a movie released in 1969, depicting events in 1913... Dig up a still of a 1911 with a base pad in that movie, then maybe your request has some merit... but be advised, it has the same chance as getting Broomhandle approved. But, maybe I overstep?

From several thousands of rounds of testing, a 230 grain at 725 fps is faster shot to shot than a 200 grain at 800+. The gun stays down and is less snappy.

Howdy Wild Bunch Shooters, By now you should have been contacted by your TG with information about Cowboy and Wild Bunch category changes. End of Trail has decided to offer ALL of the new categories for 2026. The new Cowboy category of Shootist (90 years old +) already has one entrant. If you are not already signed up, you can submit an online application choosing El Ray as your category and then send Sunshine Kay an email asking to change to Shootist. Your birthday must be on or before 2/26/1936. You may also email her and request an email application that you can fill out and mail in with your payment. ALL of the new Wild Bunch categories will now be offered. The existing Open and Ladies categories of Modern and Traditional will have age new designations of Senior (60-69) and Elder Statesman/Grand Dame (70+). Sunshine Kay will be contacting already registered 60-65 year olds and 70+ year olds to ask if they want to stay in their original category or switch to the new one. If you sign up online please pick any category and then email her with your changed category. Four new Wild Bunch categories have been added: Classic Traditional in Open and Ladies, and Classic Modern in Open and Ladies. All four will also be offered in Junior, Senior, and Elder Statesman/Grand Dame in addition to the base category. The Classic categories will return the firearms and power factor conventions that were in effect prior to the last change: Power factor of at least 150, .40 caliber or greater rifle, and pump shotguns of the Winchester 1897/Model 12 type. Sunshine Kay will be sending emails to all currently registered WB shooters informing them of how to change to the new Classic categories if they want. If you don’t hear from her in the next couple of days, feel free to send her an email. As in the above, if you are not registered yet, just pick a category and email her your category change. PLEASE NOTE: We have already ordered awards for the 2026 match. We will make every attempt to add awards for categories as they meet the minimum number of shooters. However, we may not have awards in hand for the Awards Ceremony for all the new categories. We will have stand-in awards for pictures and will ship you your award as soon as it arrives. We hope that our adoption of these new categories, although late in the year, will increase your enjoyment of End of Trail and make it more fun for all. Sunshine Kay’s email is Register@EndofTrail.org

Man I really like this rig!!!

You know guys, I'm not a moderator on this forum anymore but I think this thread has run it's course. 3 pages to answer a simple question is enough. It has turned into an opinion piece. How about tucking your opinions aside and go shoot??

The requirement is "magazines must be standard length" and other references to a "baseplate." Magazines that use slide on basepads are longer than normal magazines. Magazines that use screw on basepads are welded baseplate magazines and would be WBAS without the pads. The magazines I'm talking about, which are commonplace in ALL other types of shooting that use 1911s, do not have any kind of baseplate. If there was any rational reading of portion of the rules that let me use my Tripps with Dawson basepads, this whole thread wouldn't need to exist.

Procedural for firing more rounds than required by the stage instructions.

Hmmm... the OP asked a question and received a very plausible answer in the first response. Unless you were involved in drafting either set of rules... it's just speculation on your part, and your speculation is just as valid as the next person's. Nothing to get worked up about. The earliest rule book I have digitized (1989), specifies that #4 shot is the largest allowable. Somewhere I have rule books from EOT in 1986 & the original SASS rule book from 1987. As I recall, both specify the same. So that rule pre-dates my earliest recollections in cowboy action. If that rule follows the trend of other rules, it's in place because someone use a larger shot size and created a real or perceived safety hazard. 'Nough said. I've used #7-½, 8 & 9 shot in both CAS and WB and haven't encountered a difference worth noting. The earliest WB Handbook I have digitized is from 2009, the first edition and specifies the largest size shot as #6. No explanation provided. GJ's speculation is certainly plausible. Maybe PM Happy Jack, as I seem to recall his being involved in drafting the initial WB rules. Or, at least an early member of the WBROC. Really? Differences of opinion are inevitable. Expressing varied opinions are what make us THINK. It's called communicating. And communicating is what makes a community. SASS is a big community... I don't know anyone that agrees with EVERYTHING... And if they do... I have to wonder they've ever had an independent thought?

Can’t make up rifle or pistol…

I hope it’s a great day!

The chrono procedures and guidelines as well as other info on weighing bullets etc. WAS in the Older MD guides. I know I wrote them.

Mine is. Just about every male WB Shooter I know is in the back. Makes it easier to place you holster and mag pouches.

Now if they colored the brass, say purple, when they had small primers - that would be fine 🙂

That rig is set up for the buckle in the back.

Illegal modification………was it approved paint?

Now guys, try to get over your egos and stick to the issues. I don't know you, EL Chapo, but I have known G Joe for at least 20 years. He speaks from many years of 1911 knowledge. I don't always agree with his approach to things, but he really knows his stuff. I know my way around a 1911 pretty well also. I was one of the big time dealers in 1911's from 1970 until 2014. I have "fixed' hundreds of them with small issues to big ones. I have probably handled/fixed more 1911s than most active shooters put together will ever see. It wasn't unusual for me to deal with well over a thousand a year in busy times. I always had 500+ in inventory. So just remember that different people may disagree about small issues but don't let this wire get like the SASS wire. We kept it civil for years and I for one would like it to remain so. I feel that the current most knowledgable person in SASS/Wild Bunch about current issues is Boggus Deal. He builds 1911's from a block of steel and knows how to fix anything. I don't blame him for not getting into discussions like this, he is too busy building/fixing guns to bother. Happy Shooting.

NOT! Read this excerpt from Ed. 1 of the Wild Bunch Shooter's Handbook: (listed under both Traditional & Modern requirements. In Sept of 2013 this was amended to read: Are ya pickin' up on a trend here? That wording remained in place until 2022. 13 years after the initial rules were established. Emphasis added... Frankly, be glad that you're now allowed a 1/4" of a "natural" material as a base pad.

Results from this weekends NYS Championship. Congratulations to the NYS champs, The Outlaw Duelin’ Dawn and @Montague Kid Top overall Prickly Pear and James Samuel Pike 2026 Muster at Fort Misery .pdf

You sure whine a lot about everything! Why do you shoot Wild Bunch if you dislike it so much?

Just about every shooter in Wild Bunch uses a 1/4 inch, leather, baseplate cover on their mags. WBAS SHB PG 12 "A base pad may be added to the magazine if it meets the following requirements: it must be made from natural leather material only. It must be no larger than the contour of the base of the magazine. The total thickness of the pad may not extend more than ¼” beyond the original base plate." Mernickle sells them by the 10 unit lot 1911 Wild Bunch Mag Pads – Mernickle Custom Holsters You don't have to use the metal baseplates bare, but you can't use plastic. Darkmoor Armory motto "death before plastic"

New sponsor alert: Winchester Bourbon located in Michigan is now a sponsor for SASS presents Saginaw Showdown 2026 Michigan Wild Bunch State Championship June 13-14th. Applications now available.

Rules written at different times by different persons? Perhaps influenced by their "home range" safety rules that they are familiar with? And perhaps because shot size is hardly important to shooting 10 yard steel knockdown targets. I have seen several WB shooters not be handicapped at all shooting #9 shot. And I shoot #8 all the time. As to exactly WHY in any of the SASS rules, perhaps developed 25 years ago and modified since then, it is almost impossible for most of us to have a real clue. But it's not like we really NEED to know WHY to play the game. Learn the rules, follow the rules - for the game you are playing. But, if you think the two rules need to be "harmonized" (made the same), suggest that to your local Territorial Governor and see if they want to "pick that hill to die on." good luck, GJ

Without any hesitation stage 8. Everyone had the opportunity to shoot blazing fast and still be CLEAN. No need for spotters either the target is down or not. Stage 5 could have been more interesting if the shotgun used all three positions. *Comment* As a PM, fun stages for shooters become stressful stages for TO, spotters and PM. "Fun" for me, happens when the stage has elements to consider.

The question should be, Why didn't the old regime start an Open category like requested? The whole issue whould have been avoided.

For years, a lot of us offered ideas. They were shot down by people who never shot Wild Bunch and had not then, and still have, no clue. I will not stop criticizing the current status because when adults ran the organization it grew. Now, not so much… If it were growing as some claim, why were the “Classic” categories created?

This has been a multi-page discussion on the Cowboy wire. We don't need to keep beating the horse here. Marshal Stone

May God bless you and keep you all this year!

Let’s hope 2026 brings us more opportunities to shoot Wild Bunch!

Send it to Boggus or Kingsnake to fix it ST

We don't need more categories we just need to keep traditional as such, allowing the new commers that don't have the 45 1911 nor the 40 cal rifle to enter through the modern category. Once they get the flavor they will want to move up to the bigger bore. Please talk to your WBTG

In my view we should keep traditional with the 45 ACP 1911 and the 40 plus caliber rifle and not move it down to the 83 cal rifle and or the 9mm 1911 pistol. The lighter power factor reduces recoil and presents an unfair advantage against the traditional 45 ACP or Colt and its power factor. I agree we need to bring more participants over to wild bunch and I would rather see us allow the 38 rifle and the 9mm 1911 as part of the modern category. This would allow new shooters to get their feet wet in the sport and decide if they want to move over to traditional. We don't need more categories we just need to keep traditional as such, allowing the new commers that don't have the 45 1911 nor the 40 cal rifle to enter through the modern category. Once they get the flavor they will want to move up to the bigger bore.

Yep, me at EoT several years ago. 0.1 ozs overweight. Slim grips fitted!! See Happy Jacks last two sentences!! Jim

YES I weighed guns at matches for years. I had a few go overweight and the shooter fixed them or changed guns. That was when we would weigh them before a match if asked. I remember after we went to weighing them during the match and they failed. Then the person could shoot the remaining stages if they wished but for no score for the match.

I like having the separate forums. I wish people would use the Wild Bunch forum more. I think there are people willing to help out on both forums...but it is nice to have more specific places to go to for certain information

This forum doesn't have nearly the same amount of traffic/volume that the SASS wire maintains. 13 hours since your question and less than 30 views. If it's a general question about reloading or a popular firearm, including a 1911, there will be more feedback at the SASS wire than here. There are plenty of knowledgeable individuals over that may or may not be shooting Wild Bunch. Moving Wild Bunch under a sub-thread at the SASS wire would seem to make navigation and account login easier - and also potential invite more views from those not started in Wild Bunch... but if you're trying to argue your relevancy and existence, that last thing you'd want to do is be a step child at another forum.

I purchased one of the WSP trade in's that were being sold just after they were traded in. I think I paid about $125 with LEO discount They sold fast. I had my pick. Never fired it. Still sits in the gun room. Serial # places it as 1954, one year younger than myself. One of several M12 that I have. Driftwood

Burn them. Burn them with fire. Terminate them with extreme prejudice. That is all. FJT

Mr. Moonshine - I dropped back into the WB Forum to see if anybody had furthered along this thread. I suspected that if anyone was to make any comments that it might be you. By the way, I do not consider that to be a bad thing. Before I get further along in this, I have to repeat a quote of a person that I met quite some time ago while shooting WB at some of the California State WB Matches at DDCT. This quote from him expresses my thoughts also: "I actually enjoy it more than CAS (I know - Sacrilege!)" Your response on the first read through reads well enough. The second time through I had some questions. Your first statement I can agree with completely. Your second sentence is where the questions start. You state: "there is a ton of conversations taking place almost on a daily basis regarding great ideas for WB". What are these conversations? Our TG has never mentioned anything these conversations? Another of your comments draws questions to my mind. You state: "WB is growing at an unprecedented rate". Where is the data to back this up? The first part of the sentence that contains the last statement also states this: "TG's and WBROC are all talking and there will be several topics at Land Run and again at EOT 2026." Interestingly enough our TG has not stated anything like this. Neither have the TG's, that I spoke to, in the areas we traveled to shoot WB Matches this year. With one exception (and one match only) I have not noticed any type of significant growth in WB. From April to August our travels were directed to matches that also held WB Matches. Not side matches, but real 10 stage WB Matches. Let me tell you what I learned. With that one exception most of the WB targets were further out than I have ever shot. The shooters at the top will always be at the top. It's from the middle of the pack to the bottom is where the discontent is. At award ceremonies, match directors ask the crowd if they had a good time at their match. The guys at the top of the heap are mostly quiet. You can catch an attitude that some of those enjoyed the match. Those that didn't are quiet. It's too bad that match directors can't be sitting in the back, anonymously, and listen to what others have to say about the targets further back than last year, procedurals are up because of ridiculous scenarios and this misses they all had. Then listen to them state they aren't coming back to this again. This didn't happen at just one of the matches. For my own self been to matches that had targets 63' back (correct figure, because a person in the posse before day 1 took out his 100' tape measure and measured the distance). Been to matches, this year, where out of a 17 man posse, the Day 1 had 15 procedurals. Day 2 brought only 12 on the same stage. Was at a match with misses like this: This is after the Top 5 shooters, 10, 5, 9, 12, 16, 31, 33, 23, 31, 7, 6, 35, 25, 27, 21, 30, 37, 25, 28, 43, 28, 24, 42, 57 and 34. Listening to those guys at the lower half of this match did not express much of an interest of coming back next year. Another of the matches I attended went something like this. Before Day 1 started, some of the club officers realized that targets had been sent waaaay to far out. They dragged all of the targets on the bays 3' in. At the end of Day 1, upon advice for some shooters, these same club officers dragged all of the targets further in by 10'. On day 2, the closest target was 18' back. Not a respectful distance for a WB Match for that one set of targets. The others were further back. I could go on much more. I think everyone that has made it this far has an understanding what I am attempting to get across. Of all the WB matches we attended this summer, there was not a single WB match that had a clean shooter. Neither did the 38/45 rifle issue seem to be an issue to most anyone. So where is this going? All this little person in the WB shooting community would like to see is some answers to statements above. By the way, the one exception to far out targets was a 10 stage match, where the targets were in even closer than I like to shoot WB. What those close in targets did was allow the fast shooters at the match (I was on a posse with some really, really fast 1911 shooters) to spray away. I learned that just like at the Tombstone Cowboy Match, no targets can be brought in close enough to where they will not be missed. There was not a single clean shooter at this match either. And No, I do not believe that WB should be dragged down to WB Shooting at close Cowboy targets. Where is the happy medium. A good match director, pared with a person who is experienced at setting WB stages, knows how to give their audience an enjoyable WB match experience. I'm not going to give up WB shooting. WB shooting is still is enjoyable. However, I m going to start voting, with our hard earned $'s, to attend matches that are enjoyable. Tired of spending thousands of $'s, traveling for days with hundreds of miles on the truck for hours and hours, the cost of fuel going up and not have an enjoyable time. There has to be a happy medium out there. Am also tired of listening to match directors state "this is a state/regional/national/world match. It's supposed to be challenging." My belief is a quote from the person who taught me how to shoot WB and coached me everywhere we met up. His statement was this: "Set a match so that the shooters out shoot the targets and not the targets out shoot the shooters." Kinda an encompassing statement when you think about it. This year in our travels, we met a whole gaggle of great new shooters to us. We look forward to seeing them on a range again. Perhaps all of those folks mentioned above that are in the know, can start to plan just a little differently to make matches just a little more enjoyable. Thanks for reading this probably somewhat boring saga and have a super weekend. J.J.

He was too vocal criticizing how things were being done especially all the changes that were happening in WB. Marshal Stone

Before the shoot they were offering to check anyone that wanted their ammo checked. Two years ago they had a WB shooter prize of a Garmin chrono. Kid Rich won it. kR

It's used when there is an appearance of PF failure. At the old WR, it was used every day, every year. Random shooter, one or two per posse, had to submit ammo in ziplocks to be tested. Happened the same way at the older 4 Corners Regionals. Happened, for cause, at a 4 corners regional as well. Shooter had to change ammo. PF was so low it wasn't cycling his 1911.

Who knew the rule changes a couple years ago wouldn’t work and they would have to bring back the old rules? Oh, wait! Everyone but the ones making the rules…

No filler. BAMM is not THAT much a precision shooting match. Besides, the use of any filler with a shouldered case and smokeless powder is strongly DISCOURAGED by Lyman and Hodgdon. Can lead to ringed chambers, and they don't really understand why. good luck, GJ

Howdy, Just sharing a recent acquisition. I picked up a neat Model 12 Riot stamped "Washington State Patrol". It's in good shape with normal wear, scuff marks and dings from being carried in a car. The serial number puts the manufacturing date in 1959. Still has a legible rack number on the stock. The interior of the receiver was extremely dirty and the bolt was gummed up with small pieces of wood, dirt, old grease and oil that was a sticky, hardened mess. The action was rough and stiff until I did a complete tear down and deep clean. After cleaning and shooting a few boxes of cowboy loads, it is smooth, like a model 12 should be. It won't be my primary Wild Bunch shotgun, but I will use it in matches/stages occasionally and shoot it for fun. I will use it, not abuse it. Based on my research, the Riot shotguns for Washington State Patrol were factory stamped on the left side of the receiver. They were replaced by the Remington 870 police model starting in the 80's. The 870's were phased in as officers retired and the last model 12 was taken out of service in the early 90's. Anybody out there know anything more about these riot shotguns?

Very nice gun! Would love to get my hands on one of those!

JJ, I've handed out Clean Match pins at 7 of our last 8 matches. Sunday will be number 9. No, I haven't gotten one, but the folks who did were ecstatic. First, to clean, second to get a, hand designed, hand made, pin. Last year, at Bordertown, there were 11 clean shooters in WB. It can happen. Well, not to me but, it can. 😄

Not sure who told you that but they were wrong. It’s always been legal to blackout 3 dot sights.