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This forum doesn't have nearly the same amount of traffic/volume that the SASS wire maintains. 13 hours since your question and less than 30 views. If it's a general question about reloading or a popular firearm, including a 1911, there will be more feedback at the SASS wire than here. There are plenty of knowledgeable individuals over that may or may not be shooting Wild Bunch. Moving Wild Bunch under a sub-thread at the SASS wire would seem to make navigation and account login easier - and also potential invite more views from those not started in Wild Bunch... but if you're trying to argue your relevancy and existence, that last thing you'd want to do is be a step child at another forum.

I purchased one of the WSP trade in's that were being sold just after they were traded in. I think I paid about $125 with LEO discount They sold fast. I had my pick. Never fired it. Still sits in the gun room. Serial # places it as 1954, one year younger than myself. One of several M12 that I have. Driftwood

Mr. Moonshine - I dropped back into the WB Forum to see if anybody had furthered along this thread. I suspected that if anyone was to make any comments that it might be you. By the way, I do not consider that to be a bad thing. Before I get further along in this, I have to repeat a quote of a person that I met quite some time ago while shooting WB at some of the California State WB Matches at DDCT. This quote from him expresses my thoughts also: "I actually enjoy it more than CAS (I know - Sacrilege!)" Your response on the first read through reads well enough. The second time through I had some questions. Your first statement I can agree with completely. Your second sentence is where the questions start. You state: "there is a ton of conversations taking place almost on a daily basis regarding great ideas for WB". What are these conversations? Our TG has never mentioned anything these conversations? Another of your comments draws questions to my mind. You state: "WB is growing at an unprecedented rate". Where is the data to back this up? The first part of the sentence that contains the last statement also states this: "TG's and WBROC are all talking and there will be several topics at Land Run and again at EOT 2026." Interestingly enough our TG has not stated anything like this. Neither have the TG's, that I spoke to, in the areas we traveled to shoot WB Matches this year. With one exception (and one match only) I have not noticed any type of significant growth in WB. From April to August our travels were directed to matches that also held WB Matches. Not side matches, but real 10 stage WB Matches. Let me tell you what I learned. With that one exception most of the WB targets were further out than I have ever shot. The shooters at the top will always be at the top. It's from the middle of the pack to the bottom is where the discontent is. At award ceremonies, match directors ask the crowd if they had a good time at their match. The guys at the top of the heap are mostly quiet. You can catch an attitude that some of those enjoyed the match. Those that didn't are quiet. It's too bad that match directors can't be sitting in the back, anonymously, and listen to what others have to say about the targets further back than last year, procedurals are up because of ridiculous scenarios and this misses they all had. Then listen to them state they aren't coming back to this again. This didn't happen at just one of the matches. For my own self been to matches that had targets 63' back (correct figure, because a person in the posse before day 1 took out his 100' tape measure and measured the distance). Been to matches, this year, where out of a 17 man posse, the Day 1 had 15 procedurals. Day 2 brought only 12 on the same stage. Was at a match with misses like this: This is after the Top 5 shooters, 10, 5, 9, 12, 16, 31, 33, 23, 31, 7, 6, 35, 25, 27, 21, 30, 37, 25, 28, 43, 28, 24, 42, 57 and 34. Listening to those guys at the lower half of this match did not express much of an interest of coming back next year. Another of the matches I attended went something like this. Before Day 1 started, some of the club officers realized that targets had been sent waaaay to far out. They dragged all of the targets on the bays 3' in. At the end of Day 1, upon advice for some shooters, these same club officers dragged all of the targets further in by 10'. On day 2, the closest target was 18' back. Not a respectful distance for a WB Match for that one set of targets. The others were further back. I could go on much more. I think everyone that has made it this far has an understanding what I am attempting to get across. Of all the WB matches we attended this summer, there was not a single WB match that had a clean shooter. Neither did the 38/45 rifle issue seem to be an issue to most anyone. So where is this going? All this little person in the WB shooting community would like to see is some answers to statements above. By the way, the one exception to far out targets was a 10 stage match, where the targets were in even closer than I like to shoot WB. What those close in targets did was allow the fast shooters at the match (I was on a posse with some really, really fast 1911 shooters) to spray away. I learned that just like at the Tombstone Cowboy Match, no targets can be brought in close enough to where they will not be missed. There was not a single clean shooter at this match either. And No, I do not believe that WB should be dragged down to WB Shooting at close Cowboy targets. Where is the happy medium. A good match director, pared with a person who is experienced at setting WB stages, knows how to give their audience an enjoyable WB match experience. I'm not going to give up WB shooting. WB shooting is still is enjoyable. However, I m going to start voting, with our hard earned $'s, to attend matches that are enjoyable. Tired of spending thousands of $'s, traveling for days with hundreds of miles on the truck for hours and hours, the cost of fuel going up and not have an enjoyable time. There has to be a happy medium out there. Am also tired of listening to match directors state "this is a state/regional/national/world match. It's supposed to be challenging." My belief is a quote from the person who taught me how to shoot WB and coached me everywhere we met up. His statement was this: "Set a match so that the shooters out shoot the targets and not the targets out shoot the shooters." Kinda an encompassing statement when you think about it. This year in our travels, we met a whole gaggle of great new shooters to us. We look forward to seeing them on a range again. Perhaps all of those folks mentioned above that are in the know, can start to plan just a little differently to make matches just a little more enjoyable. Thanks for reading this probably somewhat boring saga and have a super weekend. J.J.

Illegal modification………was it approved paint?

I like having the separate forums. I wish people would use the Wild Bunch forum more. I think there are people willing to help out on both forums...but it is nice to have more specific places to go to for certain information

The most reliable and most competitive shotgun for Wild Bunch is the Winchester Model 12. Takes no parts to have it hold 6 rounds. Most are quite smooth and reliable as is. You don’t need 2-3 like with a 97. A myriad of 1911s available for Modern category and a number for Traditional. Wild Bunch is more a game of equipment reliability and quality ammo than cowboy. The .45 ACP ammo needs to be consistent and 100%.

Howdy, Just sharing a recent acquisition. I picked up a neat Model 12 Riot stamped "Washington State Patrol". It's in good shape with normal wear, scuff marks and dings from being carried in a car. The serial number puts the manufacturing date in 1959. Still has a legible rack number on the stock. The interior of the receiver was extremely dirty and the bolt was gummed up with small pieces of wood, dirt, old grease and oil that was a sticky, hardened mess. The action was rough and stiff until I did a complete tear down and deep clean. After cleaning and shooting a few boxes of cowboy loads, it is smooth, like a model 12 should be. It won't be my primary Wild Bunch shotgun, but I will use it in matches/stages occasionally and shoot it for fun. I will use it, not abuse it. Based on my research, the Riot shotguns for Washington State Patrol were factory stamped on the left side of the receiver. They were replaced by the Remington 870 police model starting in the 80's. The 870's were phased in as officers retired and the last model 12 was taken out of service in the early 90's. Anybody out there know anything more about these riot shotguns?

Very nice gun! Would love to get my hands on one of those!

Burn them. Burn them with fire. Terminate them with extreme prejudice. That is all. FJT

JJ, I've handed out Clean Match pins at 7 of our last 8 matches. Sunday will be number 9. No, I haven't gotten one, but the folks who did were ecstatic. First, to clean, second to get a, hand designed, hand made, pin. Last year, at Bordertown, there were 11 clean shooters in WB. It can happen. Well, not to me but, it can. 😄

Blacked out three dot sights are legal. I don't know which ROC member said they were illegal, but they are wrong. Marshal Stone ROC member

I have wanted a Savage 99 since I was a kid reading Roy Chapman Andrews' exploits in China and Mongolia. But prices kept going higher and higher on them. But we had a shooter grade one come in to the LGS I work part time at, so I put it on layaway. It will be next month before I pay it off, but I am stoked to get it. It's in .300 Savage, so reloading is on tap for it. Hopefully I can use it in Teddy Roosevelt shooting and not embarrass myself too much.

I’ve worn a tied down holster since I started shooting Wild Bunch. And no one ever said a thing. But that was when common sense ruled.

Survey Update, I have included the only other results published. Jim WB_Survey_Data (5).pdf

Because the WB TG's are the ones who decide what rule changes/clarifications are to be introduced. SASS has asked that the TG's take ownership of the "survey" and, after receiving input from the shooters, submit changes and clarifications to SASS HQ for adoption. Nothing nefarious going on, just making sure the TG's, some are new, understand their duties and who does what.

What I've found interesting is despite the folks on the wire are all folks that like firearms, despite that most are conservative, despite that most like the old west time period, despite that most like competition, despite that Wild Bunch has been around as a Main Match competition for 15+ years. somehow we can find something to disagree about.

From the WB ROC, This will be in the updated SHB when it comes out. "1887/1901 loading procedure verbiage shall read “at the loading table, load as many rounds as 87/01 will hold, up to 6 in magazine and carrier. Close action on empty chamber, hammer must fall unimpeded.”

I don't know where you are shooting, but around here WB is growing for the first time in almost 15 years. The changes that Misty and her crew have put into effect have reenergized shooter interest. Most feel that it i becoming more friendly to the Cowboy shooters of SASS. I have seen every club that I attend have an increase in Wild Bunch shooters, and an increase in the number of Wild Bunch matches available. I just attended a Regional Wild Bunch match. They had 33 shooters competing, where in years past they held Wild Bunch match as a side match for the Regional and had about 15 to 20 shooters. I would agree with CC in that is a great increase in numbers. Wild Bunch has their own TG's and ROC. Are you sure you are talking to the correct TG. Most clubs have separate TG's for WB and CAS. Lets give this time to develop. It has been far too long since shooters have felt that SASS cares about how Wild Bunch is run and viewed. I am excited enough about things to have become an Instructor for Wild Bunch RO classes.

      YES / NO   5. Increase age-based categories: Open or Classic age category, up to 60 years; then Senior from 60 to 70 years; and Super Senior 70+?       YES / NO   6. Should shotgun misses be allowed to made up?        YES / NO   7. Enable "rifle to be last" in WB stage design?              YES / NO And here's the survey from the first post on this page. RGR Wild Bunch Survey 2025 1. Should current WB categories stay with 40 Cal and above rifles and 1897 or Model 12 Shotguns. (Traditional)? Yes No 2. For traditional categories, should the 150 Power Factor for rifles be re-instated? Yes No 3. Should an open category be developed for those who do not wish to shoot in the traditional categories? These would include all SASS sanctioned firearms plus others to be agreed. Power Factors to be agreed upon. Yes No 4. With the introduction of an open category should we delete overall winners and just have category winners? Yes No 5. Should we increase age based categories as follows: Original up to 60 years, Senior from 60 to 70 years, Super Senior 70+? Yes No 6. Should Shotgun misses be allowed to be made up? Yes No Comments / Suggestions. Again, there are NO rules against Rifle Last, nor any suggestions that the Rifle be not last, in the WBSHB, WBRO Module. Don't know where the idea came from, regarding rifle not last, but it's not codified anywhere, nor has it been since the inception of WB.

Let's just cut to the chase and petition to have clarification of the front and rear sights allowable to a "Traditional" 1911, and indicate that any "colored dot" may be blacked out and be legal. This could be proposed at the Land Run Wild Bunch TG meeting.

My bad Brad, see I’m a poet. I really was only referring to the front sight. But here’s a Colt series 70 rear sight, identical to a Mil-Spec sight. Except the evil dots. Colt also has a front sight, to go along with this rear sight, that is also Mil-Spec. Except for the evil dot. Which is just really painted on. I’m sitting in Alabama rain right now, our SER starts in two days. So I don’t have a picture of the front sight. so your saying re-profiling or polishing the dots off is a modification? This is listed under the conventions. Profiling is not a modification. According to the convention pg 10-11. ok running up to PCC range. Just bought Treylee two new JP-5’s snd she needs to break in barrels. Brad are you camping at LR? We’ll have a soda and talk it over. CC

Morning Brad, Please ask your ROC member, where in the Handbook does it state that “3 Dot sight’s” are not allowed on a traditional gun. Please use those exact words, “3 dot sight”. Don’t care about the color, we’ll get to that later. I’ve look in the HB’s back to 2009 and there is no mention ever, of 3 dot sights for the 1911. Would a 3 dot sight be allowed if the insert’s were colored black from the manufacture? In 2013 the verbiage “no sight inserts or colored sights allowed” was added for traditional category modifications. It was still listed this way through 2019. In 2020 this bullet comment was deleted and has not returned through the May 2025 handbook. I completely agree if they are any other color, except polished blue to very matted parkerized or any dull color as OD green, flat dark earth, desert tan, etc. They would not be legal. As all these colors mentioned, are legal for gun/slide color, the sight’s may be the color of the slide or any combination of the slide color. Also the back of the sight can be polished to a natural steel color, we’ve got a lot of options. Sight requirement states “Military Style”, not Mil-Spec. Handbook calls for a blade “style” front sight, which can be dovetailed (not Mil-Spec), pinned (not Mil-Spec) or staked (Mil-Spec). But all three attachment methods are military style, as long as they are simple blade sights. HB also stated all parts may be smoothed, re-profiled, polished, deburred or replaced provided they are not prohibited in these covenants. So you could file away/polish the white dot (if it is a white dot, 3 dot) and be in compliance. Unless you can show me in the covenants where “3 dot sights” are called out as prohibited? As for the other (bigger?) sights, I assume you’re (Jorge) referring to the taller front “Blade” sight? Since the handbook calls for “Military Style” and not Mil-Spec. Is it a blade style front sight? Answer is Yes. Mil-Spec gives all the dimensions of the sight, hight, width, angles, tenon width, depth of tenon through the slide, etc… “Military Style” is calling for a simple blade front sight. No mention what the height requirements are. Ok now for my quirky question and comment. I think they got the HB correct by stating that the sights must be the color of the “slide” and not just gun. What if I have a Forged frame, which is blued. And I have a stainless slide, if the sights could be the color or any combination of the gun. I could have a blued front sight and a stainless colored rear sight. But to me it would not matter. Who uses sights anyway? See you in a couple weeks Brad. Cardboard Cowboy

Not sure who told you that but they were wrong. It’s always been legal to blackout 3 dot sights.

Whoever dreamt-up Teddy Roosevelt and Doughboy should have thought a bit more about the pistol requirements. Both of these new WB categories should require that they be shot with a Mil-spec 1911, Traditional, single-handed grip - the way the Good Lord and John Browning meant for it to be.

A question was raised at Land Run during the warmup, so the match director specifically addressed it in the main match shooter’s meeting as allowed/legal. There is nothing in the rules about it, and I would have a hard time arguing against it when I look at original issued 1911 holsters.

I did a quick online search and the leg strap was an traditional M1912 calvary holster design. I also checked the wild bunch rule book and I'm not sure why it wouldn't be allowed, there is no rule excluding it....

I've never noticed any holster-tie-down (or strap) being used in Wild Bunch over the last 18 years. So, the call seems to hold to customary equipment use. But then, I would not see that any holster hold-down provides a lot of assistance. Nor would I consider it to be harmful to the "traditional" look of a shooter's costume. I think you took the correct course of action at the match. good luck, GJ

Most people run 20-22”. Some like a little short. Some longer. It’s a matter of personal preference.

The 6th round sits on the carrier. When you close the action it is pushed part way into the magazine tube. Some 1887's will hold six with no modification. Others need a slight modification to hold the 6th round. Explained nicely below. First the review and then the fix

HI JJ et al, Flying Ramrod got it right in his post. As with a lot of these posts they tend to wander. Please may I refer you back to my original post that started this discussion. I, as a TG can only represent the membership within my club. With the help of Wooden Nichols and the 4 Corners Regional meeting we expanded the survey. So far, the results as posted represent 55 WB shooters. I have only seen one further set of results to the survey posted. The survey only reflects the issues within my club. It can be used as a template or completely revamped it is up to your TG as to how they represent your club members. Do you have a WBTG? Have you spoken to them? This fall, the WBTG's are supposed to vote on members concerns/issues so they need to know what they are. Hence my one liner post. As always, from my end of the rope. Jim

I loved my first Series 70 - Bought it in 1975 for $208 new - Accurate, would feed anything, eject anything. The collet never bothered me. Put pachmyers on it and a micro MMC rear sight and used it for 20 years. One of the few guns that I REALLY regret getting rid of. I tried to "replace" it by buying another around 2012 that had had the collet replaced with a King. Good gun but really finicky about what it would feed. Lost count of the 1911's that I've had but nothing was as good as that first Series 70.

Hello Mr. Miller - As I read your short note here on this wire, can only wonder what has prompted this one liner? Is SASS WB ready to sent to the slaughter house and why the sense of urgency that now is the time for all of us WB shooters express our concerns to SASS through our TG’s? The bigger concern with your statement is why all the secrecy? There has to be a reason why this was generated. . . . . Why not place your best foot forward, spit out your reasons for this and dispense with the suspense?? J.J.

I have a High Standard model 200 thats stamped "LVPD 42983" i got in a trade for of all things, a hi point 40cal that i traded an eig 22 saa for... I wish I could use it in a WB match... Its part of my "police gun" collection. Maine state police HK45, WV state police Glock 19, AACO MD colt police positive 38spl, south saxony (germany) police Walther PP .32acp, 1918 police Luger P08 9mm, and my Hopkins and Allen Safety Police 38S&W from some town in TN (i forgot what town it was from) I got on auction arms 10 or so years ago for $25 shipped from a charity auction for the town raising money to restore the old jail/fire dept...

Love that beauty!

Used .45 Conversion set for Dillon SQ Deal B, includes mounting plate and brass flare/powder drop through. $75 mailed CONUS

I need to try to make this match next year. It's a shame it's so close to Bordertown.

And where are the questions/results in this survey going? The survey was completed by April 2025. It took until July 2025 to see the results posted on this WB Wire. Why so long? Now, if I read this correctly, some here don't have a clear understanding of the questions after the fact and there isn't a clear understanding whether or not any of this will even be discussed at the Land Run Match because those in the know have not seen an agenda to find out if this survey will be discussed. I'm just a little guy within the SASS WB community with very little input. Reading these posts in this thread, to me, says the results of a very small group within the SASS WB community who took the time to respond to the survey will, in all probability, not see any rule changes (or perhaps any discussion) within my foreseeable future. What a shame. J. J.

Just painted the dots.☺️

As the current WB rules do not prohibit, nor discourage, rifle being last, this is a moot question. And, as this question was not part of the original survey, it was not used.

There, Cardboard! I fixed it for you. It’s legal now.

Jim Ran this survey past the two clubs I shoot at. 1. 10Y 1N 2. 9Y 2N 3. 8Y 3N 4. 9Y 2N 5. 10Y 1N 6. 8Y 3N Hope this helps

No, a gold bead is not, nor ever has been, legal for Traditional. And yes, Traditional sight requirements have been constant. At least since 2009. I don’t have the rules from that era handy but they’re pretty much exactly as they are written today.

Well, you’d be wrong, too. See my post above. And reread the rule book. It says military STYLE blade sights and it specifically mentions the Harrison Design and 10-8 rear sights.

In cowboy, Pale Wolf Brunelle likes to call it RO3. It’s called common sense. Never had to put it that way in Wild Bunch until recently. It’s been perfectly legal to blacken the three dots on Traditional pistols since at least 2009, when I started shooting Wild Bunch. It was that way when I became an Ambassador in 2012. It was that way when I was invited to join the Wild Bunch Rules Committee in 2017.

Friday, February 13, 2026 Cowtown Range, just 15 minutes from Ben Avery ROBS starts at 8:00 WB Module starts after ROBS exam is finished, approximately 1:00 If you have taken ROBS you do not have to take it again, unless you failed the first time, just the WB Module. ROBS $25.00 WB Module $5.00 Range - 10402 W Carefree Hwy, Peoria, AZ 85383 Contact: Flying W Ramrod at ramrodwayne@gmail.com

R range O operations B basic S safety Covers all safety stuff for both Cowboy and Wild Bunch then there is a module covering the specifics of Cowboy and Wild Bunch Marshal Stone

Since I do ALL my "warranty" work on my Uberti guns, I don't even read the warranty conditions. GJ

Do you have any authority for that proposition? It seems like a quite dramatic oversight, but CAS rules do not apply to WBAS and they are co-equals; WB is not inferior or subject to the rules from the other game.

I could not say for sure. I throw them little Bass-Tirds in the brass recycle bin.

Ahh, Wednesday morning and this horse is still kind of twitching. I was really hoping someone with actual authority would have chimed in and answered this. But oh well, It's like waiting for the VA to make a decision, very slow and hope you get the desired outcome. I will also say I do not intend to start using a SxS in WB. But I did actually shot a stage at a North Carolina match recently and did use my SxS. It was the perfect scenario. Only two shotgun targets, sitting right next to each other. SxS kinda stoked will sure beat a pump every time, at least for me in this situation. Everyone called me a gamer, "NOT ME", I said. Ok final comment from me on this post, to try and lighten it up a bit. Maybe my attempt at humor will wake that horse up, and he can run far away from this post. Many years ago when I was working at our HQ, we had one of our instructors who taught the mini gun and 20mm armament system on the Cobra helicopter. He really was not a good instructor. He would basically read verbatim from the lesson plan to the students. If anyone had a question this instructor would re-read the same exact verbiage, except he would read it really slow. Then he would ask, "got it?" Repeat this action if questioned again. Then move onto the next lesson plan. This guy was the perfect example of an individual who experiences the phenomenon called "Illusory Truth Effect". So I will continue to give a no call on this situation, if it ever come's up. Benefit of doubt to the shooter. Hey about a new Mantra: If you see a SxS cycled-it's cycled If you think a SxS is cycled-it's cycled If you think the SxS is open-it's cycled If shooter throws it on table, not opened-It's not cycled Y'all try and have a nice hump day