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Procedural for firing more rounds than required by the stage instructions.

Hmmm... the OP asked a question and received a very plausible answer in the first response. Unless you were involved in drafting either set of rules... it's just speculation on your part, and your speculation is just as valid as the next person's. Nothing to get worked up about. The earliest rule book I have digitized (1989), specifies that #4 shot is the largest allowable. Somewhere I have rule books from EOT in 1986 & the original SASS rule book from 1987. As I recall, both specify the same. So that rule pre-dates my earliest recollections in cowboy action. If that rule follows the trend of other rules, it's in place because someone use a larger shot size and created a real or perceived safety hazard. 'Nough said. I've used #7-½, 8 & 9 shot in both CAS and WB and haven't encountered a difference worth noting. The earliest WB Handbook I have digitized is from 2009, the first edition and specifies the largest size shot as #6. No explanation provided. GJ's speculation is certainly plausible. Maybe PM Happy Jack, as I seem to recall his being involved in drafting the initial WB rules. Or, at least an early member of the WBROC. Really? Differences of opinion are inevitable. Expressing varied opinions are what make us THINK. It's called communicating. And communicating is what makes a community. SASS is a big community... I don't know anyone that agrees with EVERYTHING... And if they do... I have to wonder they've ever had an independent thought?

Last year we had about $2500 in prizes and raffles. 2 guns, full rigs, bullets, glasses etc.... This year we have a Model 12, 3 wild bunch rigs, bullets, whiskey, eye glass gift certificates, knives, ar-500 targets, engraved items, coasters, gun cart personalized name plates, and a surprised hand autographed Tombstone poster signed by a cast member.... Sign up by May 10th for a Free t-shirt.

Please remove your email addy from your post. Scammers lurk here!! Reported just in case

I've been running 4.3 gr. of VV N320 with a 230 gr. Desperado Cowboy bullet. Won 2 Senior Traditional World Championships with it. One with an SR 1911 and one with a Colt. Must be doing something right. Marshal Stone

Before the shoot they were offering to check anyone that wanted their ammo checked. Two years ago they had a WB shooter prize of a Garmin chrono. Kid Rich won it. kR

This also includes the IAC 93/97. It is only legal in Wild Bunch. The original "93 IS NOT LEGAL. Marshal Stone

After reloading for the 45 Auto for 50+ years, without a checker of any sort, 1st on a RCBS Jr single stage, then since 1987 on a Dillon 550B, no problems to speak of*. Until WB came along, I'd only loaded two bullets in the 45 Auto. A H&G 68 for target work and Speers 4477 HP for SD. They simply worked in all 4 of my 1911s, a Gold Cup, surplus Navy issue Colt, a parts gun I built and a Combat Commander. This entire time I loaded using the same RCBS die set until I got the Dillon. So... in 1987 I began using a Dillon Carbide sizer, but the kept using RCBS seat/crimp die. Frankly, the 45 Auto is so easy to load for, it surprises me when folks have problems. Cases don't grow in length like a rifle cartridge, if anything, they get beat a little shorter, but that's never seemed to become a problem. I've never encountered a split case. When I put my Combat Commander on my "duty gun" list in 1982, the department armorer found an issue I'd been totally unaware of... Something he called "ramping"... Now, all of a sudden my carry gun could feed full wadcutters. I still somewhat haphazardly load my 45 Auto rounds... a 200 grain RFN in front of 4.3 grains of TiteGroup and a Winchester WLP yield ~800 fps for a PF of around 160. This load works a treat in my two Taylor's Tactical 1911s, a Rock Island, and the 4 mentioned above. They've all been "ramped", had the rails polished and run with oil. Most issues with the 1911 platform are with the magazines and operator. You simply cannot "limp wrist" one. While Tripp Research & Wilson Combat mags are probably the best, my CMC Shooting Star mags have served me well.** The worst issue with the 45 Auto is small primer cases. * Besides... ain't an occasional bump with the palm part of the standard "manual of arms" for the 1911? 😁 ** I don't care who the maker is... when folks walk on 'em... they're pretty much toast! So watch where you put your clodhoppers! Learn how to keep your magazines clean, follower straight and lips bent. I'm still using some military mags issued in the early '70s. With proper maintenance, they can last a lifetime. (Theirs, not yours, metal does fatigue).

Every reference to Shotgun modifications, found in the SHB pg. 18,19, state if found on the original firearm type. If there was a shroud and/or bayonet lug on an original Model 12, it's acceptable to install a new one.

Once again, and for the last time I hope, the 4 and 6 denote the LARGEST size allowed. Yes, most folk use 7.5 shot, more pellets on target. SASS said, when they made this rule, they wanted to reduce bounce/splatter. Simple as that. Find another rule to argue about

OK, using that logic, why use any time at all to make sure it is CLEAR, at the end of the stage?

What was the basis for that call?

I may not have the extensive shooting experience or resume of others on this thread, but, having timed it on numerous occasions, there is slightly more than a 1/2 second advantage for me on a 10 shot string, using my .38/357 rifle and loads. Over 10 stages that is quite significant. YMMV. Cheers, FJT

This is a forum, not an airport. There's no need to announce your departure.

Plenty of us are thrilled about allowing .38 rifles. Count me as one of them. I never shot Wild Bunch and had no intention of buying a bigger rifle just to do it. Now it's become one of my favorite shooting sports. The rule of .40 or larger never made any sense and the power factor means nothing. If anyone took their ball and went home because .38s get to play, there will be plenty to replace them.

Now,now, boys!!!

No No NO. If they want to shoot under 150, for rifle, shoot wild bunch aka mild bunch aka wild bunch lite. But the range/club should understand 150pf for pistol stays. period.dot. It's not the Rifle PF that kept shooters away from WB, it's the cost of the equipment. Just about everyone has, or had, access to a single stack 1911. It was the shotgun and large caliber rifle that scared, potential, shooters away. Not the rifle PF. Now that there is WB for those who don't have, or want to get, the shotgun and rifle, and Classic for those who do. Again, Rifle PF has nothing to do with it.

Bring all rifle power factor back to 150

AW & GJ sorry for the misunderstanding. I posted the above for information only. Since I shoot primarily small primer brass, I have been asked if there is a difference in velocity. While I felt that small primer brass lowered the velocity, I had never compared them side by side. My only fallacy in the test is that the primers are not all from the same manufacturer; as, I am now wondering if all Winchester primers are "hotter." So let me be clear. I don't feel the need nor compunction to justify a superior brass to you or anyone else. :) JFN

Yes, any shotgun legal for Cowboy or legal for WB. Any WB shotgun would have already been legal under the previous rules. Welcome to Wild Bunch. good luck, GJ

Didn't find it? Then the modification of using an oversized mag release is illegal. Unless it's a completely internal modification, in which case it IS allowed. Now, the Traditional 1911 may have neither extended nor oversized release: And the Modern 1911 may have an extended release but not an oversized one: I'll take it that the question you had was about the Mag Release, not about the Thumb Safety that the title of the post seems to talk about. For that, the Traditional pistol uses only a standard Thumb safety. And the Modern can use an extended thumb safety. See same Pistol Modifications lists on page 13. Grip Safety follows the same pattern - standard grip safety nromally, but a oversized (beavertail) safety allowed on Modern guns. good luck, GJ

Hundo Shockbottle case gauges haven’t been available for some time now. bear Metal Design made this one to his specs for a reason. He happily allowed me to return it for a full refund including the costs. I replaced it with one from Armanov. Much more expensive but their stuff is first class!

Great match last year, we’ll be there again this year!

You, again, are wrong. The members suggest things to their TG's. The TG's discuss these suggestions and, if warranted, have clubs vote via the TG's. Then, if it's not a potential liability to SASS where HQ has to step in, the results of the vote are adopted. His suggestion, may or not be determined to be valid enough to warrant a club vote. Again, if you don't like SASS go somewhere else.

Well, yeah, according to SASS, he does make the rules. He’s a paid member and his vote to his TG should determine the rules. That being said, it really doesn’t matter what shooters want. SASS will do whatever they please.

I don't even think we should be allowing large birdshot. There's no reason and it's more danger because it retains more energy. I don't see how or why that turns into some sort of argument; you're simply reading something that isn't there.

Rabbit and squirrel hunting. 4 and 6 widely used even today.

You live in a strange and sheltered world if you think 4 and 6 shot shells are uncommon!!! I can buy them everywhere, even my local Walmart. They are the largest size shot allowed by SASS, pure and simple explanation. Your interpretation, or understanding means nothing to this rule.

Those are maximum shot size numbers.

I wouldn't be using either one. Clay ranges are limited to 7 1/2 so I don't keep any shot bigger than that and I usually just use #8.

MSV was called. There was discussion on how the pistol got into the position. Should be SDQ. As for the finger at the start. I had it pinned to the top front side of the trigger guard where it meets the frame. Totes

There is no rule about keeping the trigger finger off the trigger when initially charging the pistol. The only finger rule is; when changing mags, moving, correcting malfunctions. WBAS SHB Pg 14 "When handling the 1911, the shooter’s trigger finger must be outside the trigger guard when moving, reloading, or clearing a malfunction after the pistol is first charged." No call on the trigger finger. SDQ on the 1911 after the rifle smacked it, though.

Broke the 170, SDQ Hard to see at the start, what about the finger on the trigger while racking the slide?

Don't have my load data readily available but I've had great success with TightGroup.

Out of what powders you have, TiteGroup will run the 1911 better over a wide range of loads. The best 1911 powders IME, and also classics, are WST, Unique and Bullseye. good luck, GJ

It's not a PF issue. The main reason SASS wanted an Open category, years ago, was to draw other, cowboy, shooters into WB. WB was not bringing in the revenue spent on awards etc. CAS shooters, who have now started shooting WB, didn't want to have to get a new rifle and shotgun. The cost of the guns for the amount of matches offered, didn't pencil out. So SASS had to change things up and, in so doing, eliminated the PF for all rifles to allow .38's to play. Add in the '87 and SxS shotgun, more shooters could afford to play WB. Enough WB shooters wanted the "big bore" rifles and pump shotgun, SASS decided to bring that back as "Classic". Kinda funny, if the "powers that were" had just allowed an "open" category, none of this would have ever happened. Rifle PF is only in Classic. As far as clubs using rifle PF as a reason to not shoot WB, I say BS. 150pf for pistol is more damaging to a target, because of 28+ rounds vs 7-10, it's just a reason they want to complain.

I cleaned & lubed, and polished the feed ramp of my Taurus PT1911 and loaded up another 24 rounds with an added 1/4 turn of crimp and I had zero problems! 3.7 grns of TiteGroup under my Home cast/PC’d MP mould 227gr RNFP NLG .452 sized bullets with WRE LP primers. 740fps, 168PF, STD Dev 11.4 MAXXTECH 230grn FMJ 769fps, 176PF, std dev 25.0 I’ll take the Ruger SR1911 out next time now that the FEDEX guy showed up…. (Note I ordered 2! 🤪)

And I actually prefer Small Primers in my .45 acp...don't have to re-set my Dillon 550 after a 9mm or .38 spl. run Bugler

Not arguing with you. I am just stating what I have observed in the past and cautioning about driving clubs and people away. I am glad that Misty saw the wisdom in making changes to bring in more shooters. I have spent time talking with shooters and encouraging them to come back and give WB another try. The old regime did their best to alienate shooters that had been shooting WB for years before they took over and changed the rules to suit them and their needs. Please try to understand that it is the disaffected CAS shooters that will grow the ranks of WB shooters. I believe in what Misty and CC are doing so strongly that I became certified to teach WB. I want this game to thrive, but harping on how the new game is not good is not the way to help anyone.

Power factor for pistol is, and always was, 150. Power factor for Wild Bunch Rifle is 60 Power factor for Classic Wild Bunch Rifle is 150 The PF for Pistols was never changed. If a club decides to no longer offer WB because of the 150 PF for Classic Rifle, they need to acknowledge the PF for ALL Pistols, forever, has been 150. Nothing new here. Figure some other reason to not allow WB.

Tall John, You will notice that some posts are all edited because they are originally wrong and googled based, not experience and success based.

Because it would be real obvious…

The disconnector is there for more than that. It prevents it from firing out of battery and from going full auto.

Better than that full bottles on our raffle prize table. The double oak is like 102 proof and smooth, very good.

From several thousands of rounds of testing, a 230 grain at 725 fps is faster shot to shot than a 200 grain at 800+. The gun stays down and is less snappy.

The short throat in a 1911 barrel catches a lot of new loaders of .45 AUTO by surprise, as they load a few hundred, go to the range, and find every one of the loads fails to go the last 1/8" into battery. Some keys to loading so they will feed well in your gun: 1 - the point on the nose where the upper end of the cylindrical section of the bullet (the shank) STARTS to narrow down (round over) to the nose ogive is the place where the case mouth should be placed during seating. If you crimp down on the shank, the nose will jam into the short throat of the barrel and round will not go fully into chamber. If you crimp out on the ogive of the bullet, you will have collapsed bullets during hard feeding. Remember that there is NO standard nose length on cast .45 AUTO bullets, because there have been hundreds of molds made to cast these slugs over the years. Regardless of what a manual may state. So, don't load to the published OAL, load to put the case mouth at the start of the ogive turn-in. 2 - apply a taper crimp that just returns the case mouth to 0.472", measured with a caliper. You are only straightening out the case from where you expanded the mouth, and just barely catching the surface of the bullet with the inside edge of the case mouth. Looking down from on top of loaded rounds, you should still see a bright ring of brass all the way around the bullet. The case mouth is the headspace location, so if you "bury" the brass case wall all the way into the bullet during crimping, the headspace mechanism is removed and rounds can chamber too deep to fire. 3 - get a loaded round checking gauge, and check EACH cartridge to make sure it chambers perfectly. Several companies make them, including Dillon and Wilson (the trimmer guys, not the gun guys, unless Bill Wilson just happens to be making them now, too). Yes, you can take the barrel out of your 1911 and drop rounds into the chamber, but it will "get old" breaking down your pistol every time you load a batch of ammo. 4 - good on you for bulge busting your "range" cases. But if a round fails the chamber check from step 3, the first thing to try is to bulge-bust that LOADED round. I've busted thousands of loaded rounds and never had a discharge. Second thing to do if you fail chamber-check is to look at the mouth of the case and find any lead finger-nails that "squirted out" during crimping. Depending upon the quality of bullet and your ability to squarely seat a bullet, you may or may not find a sliver of lead needing to be trimmed off the round. Those 2 corrections will almost always get the round to pass chamber-checking. 5 - chrono check and calculate Power Factor yourself. Not every 1911 will shoot a load from the manual at the velocity that the book shows! Sounds like you are well on the way to making great ammo. good luck, GJ

Can’t make up rifle or pistol…

Clays if you have it available there? I think it feels softer than WST but some will argue the other way. Shot 1000’s and 1000’s of 230 gr bullets on top of 3.9 of clays for USPSA. I would guess 3.4-3.6 would make a nice Wild Bunch load. Clays has not been available here for a couple years so I switched to WST. LF.

Joe, Chased all those rabbits and then some more. My statement still stands. JFN

I thought that the Winchester SPM primers felt better, but figured it was a head thing. WOW I aint losing it.