Stage DQ Question

[Leadfoot Luke]

Rifle scenario calls for shooting five rounds restaging for later use and then finishing the last five rounds.

Shooter shoots 5 rounds and instinctively opens the action and lays the rifle down rather than leaving the action closed on an empty.

Per the list of stage DQ's on page 22 this is a SDQ, correct?

•Restaging a long gun for further use with the hammer NOT fully down on an empty

chamber or fired case and the action closed

 

Why is this different from the August post where the shotgun was overloaded and discarded with extra rounds still in it?

[Artemus]

I am going to say the real issue, why would someone write the stage this way? Poor stage design.

 

I can't imagine this rule being written with the intent for actually restaging for further use, but some of the the "more experienced" shooters can correct me. It is a no call with rounds on the left on the carrier, so laying down an overloaded long gun with closed on empty or fully open is allowed. Just a bit of a gamble in my opinion.

[Garrison Joe]

why would someone write the stage this way? Poor stage design.

 

Pretty common stage design.  Rules cover the situation, and shooter is expected to be able to follow the rules.

 

good luck, GJ

[Happy Jack]

As already mentioned two different scenarios, two different penalties.  For a few years we wrote in the WBAS Match Directors guide that "split sequences" were strongly discouraged but since almost no MD's or stage writers read the MD guide we dropped it and many other things in the MD guide.  I agree with Artemus that it is not a good idea but other disagree. I feel it is a "penalty trap" for traveling shooters especially when it is rarely seen in many places.

[Kid Rich]

As already mentioned two different scenarios, two different penalties.  For a few years we wrote in the WBAS Match Directors guide that "split sequences" were strongly discouraged but since almost no MD's or stage writers read the MD guide we dropped it and many other things in the MD guide.  I agree with Artemus that it is not a good idea but other disagree. I feel it is a "penalty trap" for traveling shooters especially when it is rarely seen in many places.

Thanks.

kR

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

I feel it is a "penalty trap" for traveling shooters especially when it is rarely seen in many places.

 

This.

 

Cheers,

FJT

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Dittos to all the previous replies.

This whole discussion arose from a club miss-reading the rules on re-staging a long gun and conflating two different scenarios. There is a simple solution. I can remember only a half a dozen times that I've shot a stage with a split rifle or shotgun sequence but we shoot split pistol sequences all the time. The pistol is staged for reuse just like it is discarded at the end of a sequence, empty of all ammo.

The rules for both shotgun and rifle read:

 

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

 

Do away with the last sentence and get rid of split long gun sequences. I see no value in split long gun sequences unless you are picking it up empty and loading on the clock.

JFN

[Baltimoreed11754]

I have moved positions with the hammer down on a fired rifle or sg round but can’t remember the last time I  put a loaded long gun down to fire later. Penalty trap and dangerous too. I once designed a stage that used 2 rifles. The second rifle was my .22 Marlin.

[Tully Mars]

Having a split long gun scenario is just asking for troubles. However writing a stage where the long gun is shot until empty, staged and used again would eliminate many issues.

 

What is the call for an open action with a round on the carrier, but not in the chamber? Pretty sure it's a miss for and un-fired round or a P for illegal round if it was an overload. I know the rule for re-staging a long gun is hammer down on an empty, but it if the action was opened, then that long gun is safe to leave the shooters hands as per my understanding of the rules had this not be a re-staging scenario, the shooter would have only received a miss or a P. 

 

It's my opinion the rules should be consistent regarding guns being discarded and or re-staged. 

 

Tully

 

In retrospect, there's no "P", the illegal ammo was not used.

[Doc Holloman]

I've seen many stages where you move between two groups of 3 shotgun targets, but none have required " staging the gun.  A few, where the the stage rules allowed guns to be used in any order, would have permitted it, not I have not seen anyone do it.  I thought about doing it once, putting the shotgun down to shoot the pistol targets and then picking it back up to shoot the final  3 shotgun, but the risk of losing the shotgun shell off the carrier was too high.

[C.N. Double]

Is the call based on the intent of the shooter? For example...

 

Stage calls for 5 rounds from a long gun --

shooter loads 5, shoots 4, discards open long gun with 5th round on carrier accidentally -- 1 Miss (unfired round, action cycled -- page 11)

shooter loads 6, shoots 5, discards open long gun with 6th round on carrier accidentally -- NO CALL (overloaded rounds not used, action cycled -- page 11)

shooter loads 5, shoots 3, discards open long gun with 4th round on carrier purposefully (with intent to pick up and shoot again later), picks up later, shoots 2 more, discards open and empty -- STAGE DQ (page 22)

 

Is that correct? If so, why doesn't the rule on page 11 ("NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.") apply to the last scenario before the SDQ?

 

Poor stage design either way  :-X

[Tully Mars]

Is the call based on the intent

Is that correct? If so, why doesn't the rule on page 11 ("NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.") apply to the last scenario before the SDQ?

 

Poor stage design either way  :-X

 

C. N. Double,

That's my question as well. Thanks for stating it more clearly.

Tully

[Legendary Lawman]

Everyone's input in greatly appreciated.

I think that everyone is aware that there are two different issues, that being putting the long gun down after finishing with it, and putting it down re-staged for further use.  Wild Bunch simply took the "re-staging for further use" from the cowboy rules and has not reconsidered it since.  Obviously, it needs to be reconsidered and will go on the list for review next year.

The other point that is made is that Match Directors should not require long guns to be re-staged for further use.  Having said that, it has been pointed out that stages, including some at EOT 2021, because they allowed the shooter lots of choices, also allowed the shooter, if they wished, to re-stage their shotgun for further use.  While that was not the best way to shoot the stage; as stated above, it is an option that shooters could chose.

To that end, the rule on re-staging needs to be reviewed.

In the meantime it is hoped that Match Directors and Posse Marshals will make note.