Cowboy 1911 as a substitute for Wild Bunch?

[Doc Holloman]

My club  has been the only one in the area that shoots Wild Bunch on a monthly basis ( on Sundays, we shoot Cowboy on both Saturday and Sunday).  Now our new Club board wants to limit WB to two " 5th Saturdays" per year and let the WB shooters shoot " Cowboy 1911" with the Cowboy stages.  I don't personally find that an acceptable solution.  Thoughts?

[Baltimoreed11754]

Why are they reducing the WB shoots? Interest waning, burnout, ammo limitations due to the shortage would be my wag? You must have a big club to do two shoots every weekend. If we get 15 head we’re doing good. I can remember when we ran 4 possees, 2 shooting and 2 working on opposite sides of our berm. If I understand you correctly what you are describing is the Self Loader category of WASA, use 5 round mags, handgun targets engaged the same as the cas guys. That’s what we do at ECSASS. How will you load the sgs? I like the option to use my 1911 monthly. Best of both worlds. We also allow martial DAs.

[August West]

What's your attendance?  What skin is it off their nose?

[Doc Holloman]

We generally have 2-3 cowboy posses on Saturday, an 2 cowboy any 1 WB posses on Sundays.  WB interest has been off this year.  Lot of reasons: ammo (28-35 .45acp per stage), COVID.  Some folks complain that WB targets are too far out and this we rarely have clean matches.  Plus the general Cowboy shooter hostility to WB.

 

Our ranch has 16 stages, plus a long range stage, so we have plenty of room and targets.  We have a work day on the Tuesday before match weekends where we generally have about a dozen people.The biggest complaints I hear are the extra work needed to set up WB stages, and that WB posses move too slowly.

 

Frankly the Cowboy shooting doesn't excite me.  Repeated 3 target Nevada sweeps at 3-4 yards are just boring.

[Baltimoreed11754]

6x30= 180! Thats a lot of pistol ammo plus 60 rifle and 25+- sg. No wonder turnout is down. 1000 primers a month would wipe my out in a year. Sounds like you try to do a state or regional every match. We do the usual 10/stage plus 3 stages of 15-20 when we do a legit WB. I agree with you that regular cas matches don’t do it for me like they once did. We’re doing a cas match this month. I’ll use a couple Webley .455 MkVI’s shot single action. I can run them as good as my Vaqueros.

[Doc Holloman]

We generally only shoot four stages on Sundays.  The Cowboy shooters shoot 5 both days.

 

Usually we shoot 4 or 5 7-shot mags per stage, so 126 .45ACP.  We shoot shotgun on 3 out of the 4 stages so 18 12 ga. and we generally shoot rifle on 3 stages, with one of those being seven shots rather than 10, so 27 rifle.  126 + 27 + 18 = 174 rounds.  We recently hosted the state WB match and we shot 10 stages.  Same basic round counts per stage. 

 

But I get your point.

 

 

[Doc Holloman]

  How will you load the sgs? I like the option to use my 1911 monthly. Best of both worlds.

 

Shotgun is an open item (at least how they pitched it o to me as I am on the cub board (or will be come January 1.)  I doubt they will allow trench guns or model 12s (which are what I shoot).  Probably will limit shotgun to 4 targets, but whether they will allow the1897 shooters to load 4 is open to debate (my guess not, and single loading shotguns is one of the things I am not fond of in Cowboy shooting..) 

 

One of my concerns is that  the Cowboy 1911 will not be decent practice for the state Wild Bunch match. Also, I  prefer the quasi military orientation of WB (most of our WB shooters are retired officers,  like me.)  The cowboy side is just a pure speed match, with  frankly no atmosphere.

[Baltimoreed11754]

Being you are on the cup board pitch the idea to allow pump shot guns to be fully loaded on the clock to the stage requirements. It’s no faster but alot more fun as you know to bang out a magazine full than load ‘em one or two at a time. A WASA rule.

[DUSTY BODDAMS]

Doc, really with as much room as y’all have why not have 1 dedicated wild bunch stage that is set up with plenty of steel enough to do 4 stages and not be wearing out the same old targets. The WB shooters stay at that 1 stage shooting  4 different scenario. Nobody has to move steel in and out. Wild bunch shooters get to shoot a real wild bunch match with all the trimmings. Shooting cowboy 1911 is not going to be practice for the 2022 state match. I guess it beats not shooting your 45 at all.........however shotguns need to be stoked and rifle targets need to be out 25 yards and greater. Running multiple sets of targets use a couple of different colors per rack by how you want to setup a stage. This way you can say green targets on left , red rifle targets, shotgun can be split 3 per location and that will help keep the stages original also. Dusty

[Doc Holloman]

Dusty, thanks for the idea.  That might be an option.  I will run it up the proverbial flagpole.

[Kid Rich]

We generally have 2-3 cowboy posses on Saturday, an 2 cowboy any 1 WB posses on Sundays.  WB interest has been off this year.  Lot of reasons: ammo (28-35 .45acp per stage), COVID.  Some folks complain that WB targets are too far out and this we rarely have clean matches.  Plus the general Cowboy shooter hostility to WB.

 

Our ranch has 16 stages, plus a long range stage, so we have plenty of room and targets.  We have a work day on the Tuesday before match weekends where we generally have about a dozen people.The biggest complaints I hear are the extra work needed to set up WB stages, and that WB posses move too slowly.

 

Frankly the Cowboy shooting doesn't excite me.  Repeated 3 target Nevada sweeps at 3-4 yards are just boring.

You must have a unique club. We shoot all over the US and have not encountered "Cowboy hostility" towards WB anywhere. Also most of the shoots we attend do not have the 3 target Nevada sweeps at 3-4 yards. We just finished a state match that had a higher than usual number of clean shoots, they had 6. Targets were out far enough to make it interesting. Doc, I think you need to travel a little and expand your horizens. Short while back we attended a match that had Pro steel, WB and CAS. In a couple of weeks we will be at another match that will have all three again.

kR

[Doc Holloman]

Don't know of any local CAS clubs doing any sort of PCC.  Closest would be about 5 hours away.

[Kid Rich]

Take your Pro Steel guns the next time you go to a match and introduce them to it.

kR

[Doc Holloman]

Well, I have a PCC (CZ EVO Skorpion) but I don't have a handgun (or holster) that would qualify.  There is enough hostility to Wild Bunch in my club that I doubt I could get them interested in Pro Steel.  Never even heard of it before you mentioned it.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

I’ve shot a few matches run by the Zombie Shooters Association [ZSA]. I’d call it ipsc light as any caliber is ok and the classification is based on the size of your magazine not the caliber or power of your ammo. I’ve used my Smith 625 with moonclips and a couple of different .45acp pcc’s at different shoots. Indoors it was all paper but outdoors had some steel. Haven’t done one in a while. Fun shooting, not as deadly serious as the guys are in ipsc matches.

[Doc Holloman]

Looking at the Pro Steel rules, not sure they would work for us.  We have no berms.  between stages, and therefore have no dropping or knockdown targets that can't be reset by pulling a rope  Anyone going forward of the firing line requires shutting all the posses down.

 

On another note, I put a question on the SASS Facebook page asking if other clubs were having PCC shoots and the page monitor posted a response telling me to look elsewhere, and then locked responses.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

That wasn’t very nice of him. Never heard of pro steel though. We have 3 legged resetting sg targets at our club that we also use as rifle and pistol targets.

[Artemus]

Is there a reason to not run Wild Bunch on a separate day? At my club, the first Saturday is Wild Bunch only, and the second Saturday is for Cowboy. You might even pick up a few more shooters with a dedicated day, if they don't want to give up their cowboy practice time. Silly as that is, since WB is clearly the best.  With that many bays I can't fathom how you can't just set a few up for WB, at least for the day and leave the rest to cowboy. At the end of the day more shooters means more income, who cares what they are shooting.

 

Kid Rich: I can't believe that was anything but sarcasm about cowboy hostility. 

[Doc Holloman]

Short answer is that we don't have access to the range other weekends.  Our range is on a working ranch and cattle are present.  Also other clubs in the area would object to us shooting on "their" weekends.

[Kid Rich]

Is there a reason to not run Wild Bunch on a separate day? At my club, the first Saturday is Wild Bunch only, and the second Saturday is for Cowboy. You might even pick up a few more shooters with a dedicated day, if they don't want to give up their cowboy practice time. Silly as that is, since WB is clearly the best.  With that many bays I can't fathom how you can't just set a few up for WB, at least for the day and leave the rest to cowboy. At the end of the day more shooters means more income, who cares what they are shooting.

 

Kid Rich: I can't believe that was anything but sarcasm about cowboy hostility.

I was NOT being sarcastic.

kR

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Several friends and I shoot at several clubs in the SoCal area that allow Wild Bunch (with 5 round mags) to play right alongside of the other shooters at a regular cowboy match.

 

We are not included in the overall scores, which is just fine, as it is a different game.  But I have never run into any hostility about doing so.  At least, not to my face... ;-)

 

Cheers,

FJT

[Doc Holloman]

Several friends and I shoot at several clubs in the SoCal area that allow Wild Bunch (with 5 round mags) to play right alongside of the other shooters at a regular cowboy match.

..

FJT

 

A few questions, though:

Are your cowboy targets set at 3 yards for pistol and 5-6 yards for rifle, like ours often often are?

Are you allowed to fully load the shotgun (6 shells) and shoot six target shotgun strings?

Are you allowed to move with the pistol or shotgun to shoot separated  targets?

Do you shoot multiple pistol mags (4-5) at a stage?

 

 

 

Doc

[JJ]

Doc -

 

Around our neck of the woods (Northern Nevada/Fernley) we have three cowboy clubs. Two of the three organizations allow WB'ers to shoot WB at cowboy matches. As Frederick Jackson mentioned, we also use 5 round magazines that are shot in the same manner as cowboy shooters against the pistol and rifle targets. Rifle is then shot in the same manner as cowboy shooters. Shotguns are stoked in the same manner as WB. Movement with the stoked shotgun follows the same rules as WB.

 

Our only different requirement for those shooting WB during the cowboy matches is that the RO for the WB shooter must be a WB RO. Also the WB RO must be an experienced WB shooter and not someone who took the WB RO Certification Course years ago and has not shot WB on a regular basis. The shooter shooting WB guns must follow WB rules just as they would in a regular WB Match. All guns of the WB shooter are cleared on the line. Before leaving the line the RO announces to the posse that all guns have been cleared before the shooter leaves the firing line.

 

These rules have worked out for us over the past few years. The only complaint from the posse (if any) is generally from the brass pickers. They are annoyed (and rightfully so) that there is a bunch of extra brass to pick up after the WB shooter is through :-).

 

Hope this answers some of your questions above and how we have worked this WB shooting stuff out during our regular cowboy matches.

 

J.J.

 

[Doc Holloman]

J.J.:  That would be a little better than what our club is offering right now.  "Cowboy 1911" basically  just substitutes the the 1911 with 2 five round magazines for the two revolvers.  No movement with the 1911.  Cowboy rules apply with the shotgun (gun staged unloaded).  Cowboy distances (typically half those we have used for Wild Bunch) to targets, and only 4 shotgun targets.

 

Our club has about 10 regular WB shooters.  I am told that is not enough to justify the effort.  The closest Club shooting full fledged WB on a monthly basis is about 5 hours away. 

 

It was WB that got me interested in SASS shooting.  Cowboy was secondary.  Eliminating monthly WB for me is like signing up to play Hardball and then being told we will only play Softball.

 

Doc

[JJ]

Doc -

 

One item I need to make a touch bit clearer for you. WB shooters, during a cowboy match, shoot at the cowboy range targets. There are no targets set specifically for WB Shooters. Like many other organizations, we have a hard enough time getting shooters to help set and pick up steel. Asking these individuals to set out steel for the occasional WB shooter(s) would create a riot by a bunch of old farts! Wouldn't that be a sight to see!!

 

Interestingly enough all three local organizations are comprised of about 95% of the same shooters. Two organizations allow WB shooters alongside the cowboy shooters and the other will not. Go figure.

 

J.J.