WTC Overloaded Rifle

[Hoss Roonwright]

Stage calls for 7 rifle  rounds. Shooter loads 10. Shoots first 7 correctly, then final three rounds on a target.

I know had he just jacked them out, no call. But given that he shot them, WTC?  At the match we no-called it. Told shooter to pay more attention to loading orders/ammo count.  I suppose it could have been a P for improper target engagement.

 

What say you?

[Elwood James]

Every round loaded beyond the posted stage round count is considered illegally acquired ammunition. 

Per the rule book:

5-SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, pistol, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.

•Each target hit with an “illegally acquired” firearm. (i.e., one reused after being

declared as malfunctioning)

 

[Legendary Lawman]

When a shooter overloads a firearm, Wild Bunch follows the Cowboy guidelines with one exception.  In Wild Bunch, there is no penalty for leaving a live round in a firearm UNLESS it is in the chamber.

Therefore the Cowboy procedure below applies EXCEPT #5

 

COWBOY:

Overloading the rifle

Overloading a rifle on a stage is not a safety issue. The safety comes into play if the shooter

has any rounds left in the rifle after he/she has fired the rifle and committed to the next gun.

Then, and only then, a safety shall be issued if a live round is left anywhere in the rifle.

Should the shooter realize that they have loaded too many rounds and safely ejects those

rounds, it’s a no call.

Should the shooter fire more rounds than called for in the stage, it would be a “P” (edited)

- Hipshot SASS #7 

 

What’s the Call?

Application of related existing rules/penalties

- PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS #2495 (edited 2020)

 

Stage calls for 9 rounds in the rifle. Shooter loads 10 rounds at the loading table: 

 

1. Shooter shoots 9 rounds and ejects the 10th round…safely restages rifle “open & empty”.

NO CALL – NO MSV penalty for overloading – Rifle is considered “safe to leave shooter’s

hands”. 

2. Shooter kicks out the first round and then shoots the next 9 rounds.

“P” + miss (use of “illegally acquired” ammunition)

 

3. Shooter shoots 5 rounds, then kicks one out, and then shoots the next 4 rounds. 

“P” + miss (use of “illegally acquired” ammunition)

 

4. Shooter shoots 9 rounds, then fires the 10

th

round to clear the rifle.

“P” for firing more rounds than required for the stage (whether a target is hit or not)

 

5. Shooter shoots 9 rounds then puts down open rifle and then shoots the next gun.

MSV for an unfired round remaining in long gun action or magazine - DOES NOT APPLY IN WB.

 

WTC:  In this case the call is a P + 3 misses + the shooter incurs the extra time taken for the extra rounds shot.

 

[trooper]

While the rules appear clear on this weird situation, it seems self evident that the INTENT of the rule (that "each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition" be counted as a miss)  was to penalise SCORING shots on targets with "illegally acquired ammunition".    In the situation the OP described it appears (to me at least) that the shooter engaged all the targets correctly THEN emptied the rifle on to a target.    No intent by him/her that they were to be scoring shots?    In THAT case I would suggest that the Procedural (plus the extra time to actually do it) are a sufficient penalty.  3 misses as well seems excessive.  JMHO.

[Legendary Lawman]

Hi Trooper

Hope things are doing well down there.

 

While you make a reasonable point, it is impossible to write a rule for every circumstance.  This rule was written to cover a multitude of actions including deliberately overloading, in case you jack one out.  In Wild Bunch, we have given the shooter two outs when they overload.  One is to do nothing.  If you put your gun down with three live rounds left, as long as a live round is not left in the chamber it is a no call.  If you want to be safer, just jack the rounds out. 

We cannot get into a shooter's mind, so when they shoot the extra rounds, the penalties stand.

 

Appreciate the common sense comments in this particular case but we have to have the rule cover much more.

[Happy Jack]

It has always been the objective of the WBAS Committee to reduce or eliminate many penalties that were in CAS but we can only go so far. There was considerable push back a couple of years ago that we had gone too far. So we are trying to strike a balance that favors the shooter but is still acceptable to the overall body and the management of SASS.  With that understanding the rule as written will not be changed but we still give the shooter at least one option to avoid the penalty that CAS  does not allow.

[trooper]

Absolutely understand that the rule has to stand... but it has been an interesting discussion for sure! ;D

[Flying W Ramrod]

When a shooter overloads a firearm, Wild Bunch follows the Cowboy guidelines with one exception.  In Wild Bunch, there is no penalty for leaving a live round in a firearm UNLESS it is in the chamber.

Therefore the Cowboy procedure below applies EXCEPT #5

 

COWBOY:

Overloading the rifle

Overloading a rifle on a stage is not a safety issue. The safety comes into play if the shooter

has any rounds left in the rifle after he/she has fired the rifle and committed to the next gun.

Then, and only then, a safety shall be issued if a live round is left anywhere in the rifle.

Should the shooter realize that they have loaded too many rounds and safely ejects those

rounds, it’s a no call.

Should the shooter fire more rounds than called for in the stage, it would be a “P” (edited)

- Hipshot SASS #7 

 

What’s the Call?

Application of related existing rules/penalties

- PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS #2495 (edited 2020)

 

Stage calls for 9 rounds in the rifle. Shooter loads 10 rounds at the loading table: 

 

1. Shooter shoots 9 rounds and ejects the 10th round…safely restages rifle “open & empty”.

NO CALL – NO MSV penalty for overloading – Rifle is considered “safe to leave shooter’s

hands”. 

2. Shooter kicks out the first round and then shoots the next 9 rounds.

“P” + miss (use of “illegally acquired” ammunition)

 

3. Shooter shoots 5 rounds, then kicks one out, and then shoots the next 4 rounds. 

“P” + miss (use of “illegally acquired” ammunition)

 

4. Shooter shoots 9 rounds, then fires the 10

th

round to clear the rifle.

“P” for firing more rounds than required for the stage (whether a target is hit or not)

 

5. Shooter shoots 9 rounds then puts down open rifle and then shoots the next gun.

MSV for an unfired round remaining in long gun action or magazine - DOES NOT APPLY IN WB.

 

WTC:  In this case the call is a P + 3 misses + the shooter incurs the extra time taken for the extra rounds shot.

 

The, Cowboy, rule is P for illegally acquired ammo, and no misses. The missis only occur if you use the illegally acquired ammo to complete the rifle string.

 

[Legendary Lawman]

FWR

 

Remember that CAS and WBAS have some differences.  I used PaleWolf’s explanation for its clarity and how it shows the different outcomes.  However, the one difference in the rules deals with the very thing that you brought up. 

 

The interpretation by the WBAS ROC is that the words “use of illegally acquired ammunition” mean the act of firing that ammunition during the course of fire no matter what you are aiming at.

 

It should be noted that in Wild Bunch, the shooter has two outs.  First, as in cowboy, the shooter can jack the overloaded rounds out of the gun before putting it down.  Second, only in Wild Bunch, the shooter may place the gun safely down with the action open and there is no penalty as long as there is not a live round in the chamber.

 

[PWB]

Just to clarify regarding SASS rules:

See #4 regarding firing the extra rounds to clear the rifle.

“P” for firing more rounds than required for the stage (whether a target is hit or not)

That is ONLY a "P"...no misses.

That will be added to the SASS SHB "Penalty Overview" (2021 Version).

[J. Frank Norfleet]

So, if the shooter dumps the, illegal, rounds into the berm it's a p and a miss? What target did he miss? What target did he use the illegal ammo on?

I know WBAS is different, but when you say WBAS uses the same interpretation of Illegally Acquired Ammunition and the penalties, excepting leaving live rounds in the, discarded, rifle, P plus 3 misses is incorrect.

 

Well, he didn't hit a target so he missed when the round hit the berm.

You can never tell what a shooter was intending to hit. This isn't hard, lever them out or make sure there is no round in the chamber when you ground the rifle.

JFN

[Happy Jack]

I think this has run it's course.  It is appreciated that PaleWolf clarified the CAS rule and its upcoming clarification.