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Model 12 issue


Dead Head
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I've got a Model 12 that will jam once or twice or three times out of six shots.  The front right edge of the shell will jam against the right edge of the chamber.  The brass base is under the extractor.  I can open it a little and push the front of the shell to the left and it goes into the chamber fine.  Sometimes the next shell or one or two later will do the same thing (jam against the right edge of the chamber).

 

Oh, and yesterday while testing it I tried leaning the shotgun to the left (20-40 degrees) to see if that helped.  It didn't.

 

Any ideas?

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Is the gun "new" to you?  I ask because we really don't want to talk about the headspace shims in a M12, or the barrel to receiver fit.

 

And, presumably the LEFT extractor is working properly so we won't have to talk about that.  (it's concerning that you used the word "extractor" rather than "extractors" in your initial remarks).

 

We also don't want to talk about the lifter and whether, or not it is a correct 2 3/4" type.  (We've found 3" lifters in "2 3/4" guns)  A picture of the TOP of the lifter would eliminate the possibility of having to talk about this.

 

And, please let's not talk about how easy it is to assemble the M12 with the shell stop out of place, rather than tucked in, behind the barrel extension.  I don't want to be reminded of how many times I screwed this up in the past.

 

Since we don't wish to have those conversations, let's talk about ammunition.  My experience is that most/all M12s are particular about ammunition -- YMMV -- but that's my experience.  I've had to always shell-check each round for the M12, and -- again YMMV -- Winchester AA shells have always worked best for me (once I cull out the 20% of them that are bent, warped, and mutilated).

 

And, of course, the M12 seems to like being clean and generously oiled. 

 

I really hope we don't have to have the first four conversations.

 

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Without having a gunsmith that's familiar with WB shotguns look at your gun, I would suggest trying a to find a flagged carrier and see if that solves your problem. As August mentioned M12's can be particular to different shotgun shell brands as well. It's worth a try using other brand shells and seeing if it helps the issue. Personally, I'd try a carrier with a cartridge guide, anyone you shoot with have a M12 with a carrier with a cartridge guide that would allow you to try it in your gun? You wouldn't want an OBD due to the primer being struck by the extractor. 

 

Numrich appears to have a couple. I'm not a gunsmith and this is only a recommendation. The gun is a 2 3/4" not a 3" correct?

 

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/winchester/shotguns-win/12-win?page=4

 

Tully

 

 

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So, I go back to the range to function fire the Model 12 Monday afternoon and it functions perfectly for 3 times of six rounds each.  The only difference was a rubbing a light coat of Rem Oil over everything.  I am betting it is the left extractor as when it was jamming the front right edge of the shell was jamming on the front right edge of the chamber and the only way it could do that (in my non-gunsmith mind) would be if it wasn't being held by the left extractor.  Maybe when I rubbed the oily patch on the left extractor (and everywhere else I could reach), it got it working again.  All my factory Winchester Low Recoil rounds were fine in the shell chamber checker.

 

Will try it again this afternoon. 

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On Tuesday afternoon I tried it again and got two failure to feed (right edge of the shell hitting the front right edge of the chamber) out of 18 rounds.  I went home and ordered a new left extractor, spring and pin from Numrich.  I took some photos, but couldn't get them to load.
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The extractors "look" normal.  The reason I'm stuck on the lifter is that -- as I said -- we've found 3" lifters in M12s that were made for 2 3/4" shells.  I suspect that when the crush of the Remington 870 was fully upon Winchester that they did a lot of stuff to try to cut costs (corners) on the otherwise expensive manufacture of the M12.

 

The TOP (the part that faces the sky when the gun is at battery) is configured different on the 3" gun.  This difference in shape results in poor control of the shells during feeding, and the exact kind of symptoms you are reporting.  That's why I'm so stuck on that possibility.  This is a road we've been down and it was baffling until we realized what Winchester had done.

 

So, I'm still interested in seeing a photograph of the top of the lifter, taken looking down on it while it is removed from the receiver.

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The right side extractor on my 12's does not even touch the rim until the shell has started into the chamber.  And that's with 12s without the flag. I don't see how the extractor can cause the shell to misalign and jam into the barrel breech.

 

Look at the top surface of lifter - it may have had metal ground off the right hand side, or be a 3" lifter.  Look for any burr on the barrel breech surface. 

 

Added - This may be a timing problem of when the lifter pops up.  If lifter rises too late, the bolt could miss the shell rim and block the shell from rising to the chamber mouth properly.  The lifter movement is very quick - occurs within about 1/2 inch of forearm motion as the action is being closed.  It takes being off only a little to cause problems.

 

Good luck, GJ

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If the problem manifests itself in the first few two rounds, you might consider reducing the tube spring tension(ie shorten spring).  With full tube of shells, the high spring tension bounces the shell around as you work the action resulting in the random catch you show in the picture.  My spring now extends about 3 inches beyond the tube, before compression.    Solved my problem.  Something to consider.

 

Respectfully,

 

EJ

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  • 2 weeks later...

I gave it to a gunsmith in Maine along with two boxes of Winchester Low Noise Low Recoil shells.  I ordered a left extractor, pin and spring from Numrich and sent those to him also.  Haven't heard if he has had any success yet.

 

I have until Feb. 15 which is when I need to get it to the shooter that is driving my WB guns out to Phoenix.  I will fly with my CAS guns.

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I got my Model 12 unflagged shotgun (s/n 13491XX - 1953 vintage) back from the gunsmith on Sunday and went to the range to function fire it before giving it to the shooter taking it to Phoenix for me.  He had smoothed a part of left part of the trigger group that he thought the base of the shell may have been hitting and cocking the shell to the right.

 

I loaded six and racked it like I was a speed demon and the first round jammed (the front right edge of the shell jamming on the front right edge of the chamber (1/8" or so catching).  I pushed the shell to the left a little so it went in and continued the exercise.  I shot that one and the next one jammed also.  I pushed the front part of that shell over and slowed down a little and didn't rack it or bring it into battery like I was going as fast as I could and it worked fine. 

 

The next three sessions of six rounds each also worked fine if I slowed down a little and didn't try to rack it or go into battery as fast I could.  Now if I can remember that when the buzzer goes off at Winter Range!

 

I believe I do need to get a flagged carrier at this stage and see if that helps.

 

 

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