Does anyone else think the Wild Bunch scoring system sucks or is it just me?

[Flash]

I don't have a problem with how the winners are determined it is mainly that when you look at scores you get nothing! You just as soon have a list of the place holders with nothing else listed. 1st place, 2nd place, etc.

 

You can't tell how many misses any of the shooters had or times, NOTHING! I shot in EOT Wild Bunch and placed in the top ten a few years ago. I saved the scores, ha ha why did I do that! You can't tell anything from them. I know I started out the match with a stage that I had a P and a minor safety but there is no way to tell what stage that was or how I managed to get it together enough to place in the top 10.

 

We had a match today and I was so busy I did not have time to pay attention to my scores or how many misses I had and I placed 4th. I got the scores and they tell me nothing.

 

Am I the only one that thinks this could be done better?

[marshal stone]

 

 

Am I the only one that thinks this could be done better?

 

Lots of folks. You just have to convince Happy Jack and the Wild Bunch.

Good luck with that.

 

Marshal Stone

[Tully Mars]

My preference would be Total Time.

 

Tully

[JJ]

Yup - I also think the current scoring system for Wild Bunch stinks.

 

As Tully mentioned Total Time would be my preference also. I wonder how many other Wild Bunch Shooters would have the same preference?

 

And - as a comment here: For a Hobby/Sport that is dying a slow death, why can not the powers-to-be attempt to accommodate just a few requests. Why not show both scoring systems for the large matches. What harm could there possibly be to accommodate all shooters to show the two different scoring systems?

 

Sometimes goofy rules make no sense to most. As Marshal Stone seemed to indicate, what a shame there seems little chance for change when those in charge display appearances of having their heads buried in the sand and seem to not care what is happening around them.

 

Of course others mileage may vary.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Flash

You are wanting the scoring system to do for you what only you can do. Even if the scoring system told you your misses, it wouldn't tell you why you missed. Part of the shooting cycle is seeing where your sights are when your gun goes off and calling the shot. And by calling the shot I don't mean hearing the ding or seeing the hit on the target, I mean seeing where the sights are when the pistol fires and goes into recoil. I've been working on this a long time. The last WR I had 4 misses and the day after the match I could "see" the sight picture on all four misses. Even now I can see three of those; a front sight floated over the top of the target, firing before the sight was on target and nothing because I blinked and pushed out at 8 o'clock. When I saw each one I immediately corrected for the next shot.

 

No such thing as being too busy to know how I was shooting. As a posse marshal at WR I was busy. But when I stepped to the line I gave the stage all my attention. And when I went to the unload table I could tell you everything about how I shot the stage. Anytime I let myself be distracted I shoot crappy and usually get a P, MS or a DQ.

 

I do like the scoring system, it makes the sport much more competitive than total time. Stage Points keeps a top shooter in the game even when they get a stage DQ. I can't tell you how many matches I have seen good shooters win even though they had a stage DQ. That means that they shot well enough on 11 stages to beat shooters that had scores on 12 stages. Total time knocks the shooter with a DQ out. Which means the next guy wins by default, not because he shot better. I don't want to win like that.

 

No I'm not a Chance, Capt. Sam or Boggus Deal. But I can compete with myself. Every time I shoot I want to see my sights, concentrate on the trigger and call every shot. If I miss I want to correct that before the next shot not after the match.

 

Just my opinion,

JFN

[August West]

 

I do like the scoring system, it makes the sport much more competitive than total time. Stage Points keeps a top shooter in the game even when they get a stage DQ. I can't tell you how many matches I have seen good shooters win even though they had a stage DQ. That means that they shot well enough on 11 stages to beat shooters that had scores on 12 stages. Total time knocks the shooter with a DQ out. Which means the next guy wins by default, not because he shot better. I don't want to win like that.

 

 

Gee Whiz, I don't know if I should be embarrassed or angry.  I have "followed" the discussions about Stage Points in WBAS since they began here several years ago.  Those discussions always quickly turned to the topic of "what should we do with a SDQ if we returned to Total Time?"  But, until you made this clear statement, Frank, I never understood what you guys were talking about.  Like most people -- it seems -- I felt the Stage Points 'transformation' was just some mumbo-jumbo that obscured important (to me) information about what had occurred during a match.  And, seeing it that way, the conclusion -- in my mind -- was that transformations never add information, they only obscure it, therefore it is a shame the WBAS Committee has chosen to do things this way.  The purpose for scoring with Stage Points was without reason until I read your statement (quoted here).  As you know, I've participated in many WBAS matches scored with Stage Points, yet never understood how that affected the outcome of the match until today.

 

Two courtesies would eliminate the resentment that shooters feel about WBAS Stage Point scoring, I suspect.  First, a global statement -- like the one you've made here -- about the rationale for Stage Point Scoring that explains to shooters the advantages of this system.  And, second, a clear and concise (mathematical) explanation of how the Stage Point transformation of total time and missus is carried out.  If shooters understood both of these matters, these discussions would have been much more productive, and perhaps the issue would have been settled by now.

 

As I said in the first sentence, you can say something like "boy, that August West is a dumbass to have been shooting WBAS for all these years and not have understood the virtues of Stage Scoring."  Or, you could say, "that August West has every right to be dissatisfied with the clarity of explanation the WBAS Committee has given to shooters on this topic."

 

At any rate, thanks Frank for moving us ahead!!!

 

All the best to you.

 

A.W.

 

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Thank you August. One thing I'd like to add. In total time the shooter with a DQ is penalized twice, i.e. double jeopardy. Not only does he receive a no time for his DQ, in order for that not to lower his total time, an astronomical number of seconds is added to the total time. That's two penalties. With stage points he gets the zero for the DQ he earned and keeps shooting.

JFN

[Flash]

Flash

You are wanting the scoring system to do for you what only you can do. Even if the scoring system told you your misses, it wouldn't tell you why you missed. Part of the shooting cycle is seeing where your sights are when your gun goes off and calling the shot. And by calling the shot I don't mean hearing the ding or seeing the hit on the target, I mean seeing where the sights are when the pistol fires and goes into recoil. I've been working on this a long time. The last WR I had 4 misses and the day after the match I could "see" the sight picture on all four misses. Even now I can see three of those; a front sight floated over the top of the target, firing before the sight was on target and nothing because I blinked and pushed out at 8 o'clock. When I saw each one I immediately corrected for the next shot.

 

Wrong. I want the scoring system to give me information and a record about what gave me the score I got. For example what my time was and what my penalties were. Also what the other shooters had. And I don't need it to tell me why I missed. I know why I missed. I want it to be a record that I can look at and see what happened in that match. Not some percentage of something that tells me nothing!

 

 

No such thing as being too busy to know how I was shooting. As a posse marshal at WR I was busy. But when I stepped to the line I gave the stage all my attention. And when I went to the unload table I could tell you everything about how I shot the stage. Anytime I let myself be distracted I shoot crappy and usually get a P, MS or a DQ.

 

Wrong again, my last match we were racing a weather front coming in and the wind was blowing the carpets we stage our guns on all over. I made a point to shoot first so I could go chase down things that were happening so we could continue the match and possibly beat the rain headed our way. I was not hearing the scores because I was not really interested at the time. I could have chased down the score keeper later I guess to find out but at the moment I was doing something else that I thought was more important.

 

I do like the scoring system, it makes the sport much more competitive than total time. Stage Points keeps a top shooter in the game even when they get a stage DQ. I can't tell you how many matches I have seen good shooters win even though they had a stage DQ. That means that they shot well enough on 11 stages to beat shooters that had scores on 12 stages. Total time knocks the shooter with a DQ out. Which means the next guy wins by default, not because he shot better. I don't want to win like that.

 

Another missed point I was trying to make. If you read my original post the first thing I say is, "I don't have a problem with how the winners are determined" all I want is a record of what actually happened on the stage so one can look back and actually see something that has meaning. Like a stage time, the penalties that were assessed, etc. This would also be nice to double check scores for accuracy. I think we can do better than what we are doing now. That is my opinion.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

 

Wrong. I want the scoring system to give me information and a record about what gave me the score I got. For example what my time was and what my penalties were. Also what the other shooters had. And I don't need it to tell me why I missed. I know why I missed. I want it to be a record that I can look at and see what happened in that match. Not some percentage of something that tells me nothing! . . .  all I want is a record of what actually happened on the stage so one can look back and actually see something that has meaning. Like a stage time, the penalties that were assessed, etc. This would also be nice to double check scores for accuracy. I think we can do better than what we are doing now. That is my opinion.

 

Flash,

Not even in Total Time do you get that information. If you look at the final scores for Cowboy at WR and EoT, all that's given is stage time after penalties are included. So I don't know why you are so critical of our scoring system.

 

But, if you need that information to analyze here is how you get it. Every major match I attend (state, regional, WR & EoT) posts the raw times at the end of the match for shooters to dispute. Every shooters time, misses and penalties are listed by stage without any placings. Take a picture of it for your records. Then when the final score is posted you will know how it came about. At our local matches we use PractiScore on my phone. I send out the final score to all the shooters and if a shooter wants the raw times I'll send it to them. So ask the scorekeeper of your local club to send you the raw times. I bet the information is available even if your club is using Aces or the SASS scoring.

JFN

[Flash]

Flash,

Not even in Total Time do you get that information. If you look at the final scores for Cowboy at WR and EoT, all that's given is stage time after penalties are included. So I don't know why you are so critical of our scoring system.

 

But, if you need that information to analyze here is how you get it. Every major match I attend (state, regional, WR & EoT) posts the raw times at the end of the match for shooters to dispute. Every shooters time, misses and penalties are listed by stage without any placings. Take a picture of it for your records. Then when the final score is posted you will know how it came about. At our local matches we use PractiScore on my phone. I send out the final score to all the shooters and if a shooter wants the raw times I'll send it to them. So ask the scorekeeper of your local club to send you the raw times. I bet the information is available even if your club is using Aces or the SASS scoring.

JFN

Thanks for the suggestions. I know how Aces and Practiscore work, I do scoring for our club often. Aces gives you a detail report if you select that. Pratiscore does not separate the penalties it just lumps them into one which I don't like.

 

And you are right about EOT and WR and that is why I have no interest in looking at those scores. They tell you nothing but at least they give stage times in CAS where WB does not.

 

My point is that the scores of a match would be much more interesting to shooters if they could look at them and kinda see how the shooters did. Like this guy shot this stage real fast but he had two misses or this guy shot this stage real slow and the rest real fast and he did not have any penalties, I wonder if he had a gun malfunction? Putting up 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and so on with no other information is not that interesting to look at. That is my point and why I think our WB scoring system sucks! Cowboy action scoring you can look at the scores and tell what went on with the shooters and to me that is interesting to look at and analyze. Still my opinion.

[Last Chance]

I love the scoring for Wildbunch. I feel it is the most fair and the best for competitors. You must understand the scoring system to understand why it makes so much sense, that's why every other major shooting sport uses it. (combat style) Problem is a lot of competitors won't take the time or sip enough bourbon to figure it out and they get pissy over it, that is not the fault of the scoring, its the persons.  Now I totally understand the LAYOUT of the scores after the match, which is what im guessing this question is about. It Doesn't show penalties or misses ect. but neither does cowboy or any other sport. As long as we can get TIME with the percentages, I think people would be happier.

[Flash]

I love the scoring for Wildbunch. I feel it is the most fair and the best for competitors. You must understand the scoring system to understand why it makes so much sense, that's why every other major shooting sport uses it. (combat style) Problem is a lot of competitors won't take the time or sip enough bourbon to figure it out and they get pissy over it, that is not the fault of the scoring, its the persons.  Now I totally understand the LAYOUT of the scores after the match, which is what im guessing this question is about. It Doesn't show penalties or misses ect. but neither does cowboy or any other sport. As long as we can get TIME with the percentages, I think people would be happier.

Your first part of your reply missed the point all together as the first thing I said was "I don't have a problem with how the winners are determined" and why I think it sucks is you have a score sheet that shows something like 2nd and this by it 229.8639 76.621 % Wow! That sure tells me a lot about the match. Now the last part of your post you are catching on to what I am talking about. My point is if you want people to be interested in something you need to give information. That is all.

 

Sorry I left out that CAS does show stage times, misses, and procedurals if you select that to be shown on the detailed score sheet in ACES. Now that ACES is gone Practiscore is going backward in my opinion and lumps all penalties into one column.

 

I think shooters like to see this information when they look at the scores. Just my opinion.

[C.N. Double]

Disclaimer: I still consider myself an FNG, so keep that in mind...

 

I agree with Flash that more meaningful scoring data helps me better understand how I stack up against other shooters.

 

After reading this thread and re-reading Pecos Clyde's stickied post explaining the SPSS, I think I understand it better now.

 

How are procedurals and MSVs handled? Do they simply subtract 20 and 60 stage points, respectively?

 

The most challenging part of the game for me is maintaining consistency. I can burn a stage down, but then come up with several misses on the next. Keeping your head in the game is tough. It seems the SPSS might be more forgiving to shooters who are less consistent (whether it be hitting targets or getting penalties), and I don't think I prefer it.

 

If you earn a stage DQ for being unsafe, SPSS is more forgiving than total time (as Frank pointed out). But, are you really a "better" shooter if you make mistakes that earn penalties or DQs? To me, it's being consistent and safe for the entire match that makes a better shooter, and it seems total time might reflect that better.

[Garrison Joe]

WB Minor Safeties and Procedurals are time adjustments, having same value as in Cowboy scoring:

 

MSV = 10 seconds added to raw time for each one called on stage

Procedural = 10 seconds added to raw time for the first one on a stage

 

Raw time + Miss penalty time + (MSV and Procedural) penalty time => Total time

 

BTW      If we are taking a vote, I too would suggest that published scores at WB matches always have a "detailed score" version made easily available.  My other vote is that I generally like stage point scoring, as on every stage you are scored against the "fastest shooter" on that stage.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Samuel B Carpenter]

 

Good morning ya'll

 

Was thinkin, if total time finally is good enough for cowboy, it should be good enough for wbas too

 

Total time gets my vote,         

 

KISS - keep it simple scoring

 

Regards

Samuel B

 

[lostvaquero]

"I do like the scoring system, it makes the sport much more competitive than total time. Stage Points keeps a top shooter in the game even when they get a stage DQ. I can't tell you how many matches I have seen good shooters win even though they had a stage DQ. That means that they shot well enough on 11 stages to beat shooters that had scores on 12 stages. Total time knocks the shooter with a DQ out."

 

TO me that right there is why total time.  If you screwed up bad enough to DQ, does not matter how well you did on the rest.  By the system in place if you DQ on a stage then burn down the rest covers the fact you did something grevious enough to get a stage DQ.  In TT it reinforces the fact you did and hopefully the next time be a little more vigilant.  Sure we all, or mostly all of us screw up but again my thinking is TT hopefully keeps you on your toes instead of thinking alright bad stage I can make this up and not getting that reinforcement.  I am not sure that I completely agree with keeps the sport more competitive.  I think the competition is there no matter which scoring is used.  As the system is now, sure helps a shooter keep in the running and I can see where you are coming from but again rules in place that result say a DQ are there for a reason and reinforcing that seems better to me.

 

My worthless 2 cents as never going to be a top competitor just out to have some safe fun with good people because with either system be bringing home the light on the caboose.

[Abilene]

Well I agree with Flash, if I am understanding what he is saying.  Whether for CAS or WBAS, some of the clubs I shoot with list scores with just the times and places, no info for misses or P's.  Other clubs have multiple files to pick from - one will be overall times and places only and another says "detail" and gives just that.  I even like it when the file shows rank points, even if the club does not use them for scoring.  Makes it easier to compare how I did on each stage to others.  For example the Wild Bunch (4-stage "side match") match last weekend at Comancheria Days (no rank points listed but does show penalties):

 

Overall (simplified) score sheet: http://texicanrangers.org//uploads/Events/Comancheria%20Days/SASS%20TX%20State%20Wild%20Bunch%20Match%20Final%202019.pdf

 

Details score sheet: http://texicanrangers.org//uploads/Events/Comancheria%20Days/SASS%20TX%20State%20Wild%20Bunch%20Match%20Final%20Detail%202019.pdf

 

By the way, I accomplished my goal of placing in the top half of my category (barely), 7th out of 15 Traditional  :)

[Flash]

Well I agree with Flash, if I am understanding what he is saying.  Whether for CAS or WBAS, some of the clubs I shoot with list scores with just the times and places, no info for misses or P's.  Other clubs have multiple files to pick from - one will be overall times and places only and another says "detail" and gives just that.  I even like it when the file shows rank points, even if the club does not use them for scoring.  Makes it easier to compare how I did on each stage to others.

Yes exactly what I am getting at!  :)

Only thing is it looks like you guys used total time?

The regular way Wild Bunch is scored all you would have is a bunch of % values.

[VICIOUS]

HI Gang; So is what you really want is to  see the misses and P, and stage DQ. All spelled out for each stage, regardless of the scoring system?

[Flash]

HI Gang; So is what you really want is to  see the misses and P, and stage DQ. All spelled out for each stage, regardless of the scoring system?

That is a big 10-4

[Flash]

HI Gang; So is what you really want is to  see the misses and P, and stage DQ. All spelled out for each stage, regardless of the scoring system?

That is a big 10-4

Here is an example of a side match in 2014. What does this tell you other than who was first or second?

[Flash]

HI Gang; So is what you really want is to  see the misses and P, and stage DQ. All spelled out for each stage, regardless of the scoring system?

That is a big 10-4

Here is an example of a side match in 2014. What does this tell you other than who was first or second?

What do you think a perspective new Wild Bunch shooter thinks when he sees this score sheet. Do you think it makes him think he wants to join in or does he say what the F is this?

[Flash]

I know it can be done. Here is another example. This was a match my club had in 2014, can you tell any difference?

[Grouchy Spike]

FWIW, I agree with Flash and Abilene  - present the scores with Stage Points AND Total Time including misses and other penalties.  No objection to Stage Points.  Plenty of objection to presentation of Stage Points only! 

[Last Chance]

Honestly if you have a stage dq and still win a match you deserve it. Theres no excuse as a top shooter wither thats overall or in your category to have somebody get 0 points on a stage and yet still win. It is pretty obvious that you shot so poorly that you didn't deserve to win in the first place. And id honestly be annoyed if misses, p's, safeties ect were listed for every single stage. the scoring list would have to be a small font with a ton of lines which doesnt work well for large matches. time and percentage would do just dandy. IF you want to know if joe shmo had misses on stage 5 why not just go up and ask him?