Rifle Power Factor

[Jorge]

I would suspect that most competitors using a .38 rifle, Cowboy or Wild Bunch, are using a velocity of 750-800, at least.  This is based on a revolver power factor of 60, and the using the same rounds, the rifle adds 100-150fps, easily.  So the POWERR FACTOR may be in the 75-80 range already.

Using a >.40 rifle, with a PF of 150 is a disadvantage, many would agree, as it is easily twice the power factor of the .38's.

I might propose changing the Power Factor for the rifle in Wild Bunch to 80, or any value <100, for any caliber rifle, in any class.  This would lessen the advantage of using a .38, and it may allow someone shooting in a "Classic" category to compete with those in an "Open" category.

The 1911 Power Factor would still be 150.

Discussion?  Kevlar is on.

Edited Saturday at 03:48 PM by Jorge

[Old Man Graybeard]

Bring all rifle power factor back to 150

[Tracker Jack]

I would like to make a comment for consideration. I know several clubs that either did away with WB or WB supply their own targets because of the damage being done by WB shooters to their CAS targets. Clubs have started to allow WB again, the increase in PF may cause these clubs to reconsider WB going forward.

Also, when I went to school 750 and 800 were more than 150. Jorge you may want to check your math.

[Jorge]

OMG, I doubt that the PF for all rifles would ever return to 150.  It is too unpopular.

 

Tracker Jack, the 150 is POWER FACTOR.  The 750-800 was meant to be FEET PER SECOMD.  I did misuse the term, so I'll correct imy premise statement

Old metal targets may be a problem with a high power factor.  With our AR 500, we have found no damage, but not all clubs have such targets.

[Tracker Jack]

3 hours ago, Jorge said:

OMG, I doubt that the PF for all rifles would ever return to 150.  It is too unpopular.

 

Tracker Jack, the 150 is POWER FACTOR.  The 750-800 was meant to be FEET PER SECOMD.  I did misuse the term, so I'll correct imy premise statement

Old metal targets may be a problem with a high power factor.  With our AR 500, we have found no damage, but not all clubs have such targets.

All I was saying is to be careful about pushing high power factors. We are getting shooters and clubs to rethink opposition to WB, it is important to listen to these concerns. The hand wringing and desire to go to high power factors are a detriment to acceptance and growth.

[Flying W Ramrod]

Power factor for pistol is, and always was, 150.

Power factor for Wild Bunch Rifle is 60

Power factor for Classic Wild Bunch Rifle is 150

The PF for Pistols was never changed. If a club decides to no longer offer WB because of the 150 PF for Classic Rifle, they need to acknowledge the PF for ALL Pistols, forever, has been 150.

Nothing new here. Figure some other reason to not allow WB.

[Tracker Jack]

10 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Power factor for pistol is, and always was, 150.

Power factor for Wild Bunch Rifle is 60

Power factor for Classic Wild Bunch Rifle is 150

The PF for Pistols was never changed. If a club decides to no longer offer WB because of the 150 PF for Classic Rifle, they need to acknowledge the PF for ALL Pistols, forever, has been 150.

Nothing new here. Figure some other reason to not allow WB.

Not arguing with you. I am just stating what I have observed in the past and cautioning about driving clubs and people away. 

I am glad that Misty saw the wisdom in making changes to bring in more shooters. I have spent time talking with shooters and encouraging them to come back and give WB another try. The old regime did their best to alienate shooters that had been shooting WB for years before they took over and changed the rules to suit them and their needs. Please try to understand that it is the disaffected CAS shooters that will grow the ranks of WB shooters. I believe in what Misty and CC are doing so strongly that I became certified to teach WB. I want this game to thrive, but harping on how the new game is not good is not the way to help anyone.

 

[Jorge]

Perhaps I was unclear with my premise.  In essence, the idea is to LOWER the current "Classic" rifle power factor from 150 to about 75-80, which is what I suspect the current .38's are.

The 1911 power factor would stay at 150 (minimum).

[Flying W Ramrod]

4 hours ago, Jorge said:

Perhaps I was unclear with my premise.  In essence, the idea is to LOWER the current "Classic" rifle power factor from 150 to about 75-80, which is what I suspect the current .38's are.

The 1911 power factor would stay at 150 (minimum).

No No NO.

If they want to shoot under 150, for rifle, shoot wild bunch aka mild bunch aka wild bunch lite.

But the range/club should understand 150pf for pistol stays. period.dot.

It's not the Rifle PF that kept shooters away from WB, it's the cost of the equipment. 

Just about everyone has, or had, access to a single stack 1911.

It was the shotgun and large caliber rifle that scared, potential, shooters away.

Not the rifle PF.

Now that there is WB for those who don't have, or want to get, the shotgun and rifle, and Classic for those who do.

Again, Rifle PF has nothing to do with it.

[El Chapo]

I don't really understand why there is so much obsession with this issue.  No shooter is going to be slower with a 150 pf rifle.  It makes no difference.  150 pf is not a lot.  No shooter is going to be faster with a .38 at 60 pf.  In fact, most of them are probably shooting 100+ pf .38 anyway.

If anything, we should be talking about raising the power factor for the pistol.  150pf in .45 Auto is very weak.  Factory hardball is 195 pf.  Major pf in IDPA and USPSA is 165 and 170 in IPSC outside of the Open division.  It is much harder to shoot a pistol fast with one hand at 165+ pf than it is at 150, and much harder to shoot the pistol fast than any rifle at any power factor.  If we were serious about power, we'd be mandating 180 or more, which isn't pushing .45 at all.

Edited 20 hours ago by El Chapo

[Flying W Ramrod]

4 hours ago, El Chapo said:

I don't really understand why there is so much obsession with this issue.  No shooter is going to be slower with a 150 pf rifle.  It makes no difference.  150 pf is not a lot.  No shooter is going to be faster with a .38 at 60 pf.  In fact, most of them are probably shooting 100+ pf .38 anyway.

If anything, we should be talking about raising the power factor for the pistol.  150pf in .45 Auto is very weak.  Factory hardball is 195 pf.  Major pf in IDPA and USPSA is 165 and 170 in IPSC outside of the Open division.  It is much harder to shoot a pistol fast with one hand at 165+ pf than it is at 150, and much harder to shoot the pistol fast than any rifle at any power factor.  If we were serious about power, we'd be mandating 180 or more, which isn't pushing .45 at all.

It's not a PF issue.

The main reason SASS wanted an Open category, years ago, was to draw other, cowboy, shooters into WB.

WB was not bringing in the revenue spent on awards etc.

CAS shooters, who have now started shooting WB, didn't want to have to get a new rifle and shotgun. The cost of the guns for the amount of matches offered, didn't pencil out. 

So SASS had to change things up and, in so doing, eliminated the PF for all rifles to allow .38's to play. Add in the '87 and SxS shotgun, more shooters could afford to play WB.

Enough WB shooters wanted the "big bore" rifles and pump shotgun, SASS decided to bring that back as "Classic".

Kinda funny, if the "powers that were" had just allowed an "open" category, none of this would have ever happened.

Rifle PF is only in Classic.

As far as clubs using rifle PF as a reason to not shoot WB, I say BS. 150pf for pistol is more damaging to a target, because of 28+ rounds vs 7-10, it's just a reason they want to complain.

 

[El Chapo]

2 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

It's not a PF issue.

The main reason SASS wanted an Open category, years ago, was to draw other, cowboy, shooters into WB.

WB was not bringing in the revenue spent on awards etc.

CAS shooters, who have now started shooting WB, didn't want to have to get a new rifle and shotgun. The cost of the guns for the amount of matches offered, didn't pencil out. 

So SASS had to change things up and, in so doing, eliminated the PF for all rifles to allow .38's to play. Add in the '87 and SxS shotgun, more shooters could afford to play WB.

Enough WB shooters wanted the "big bore" rifles and pump shotgun, SASS decided to bring that back as "Classic".

Kinda funny, if the "powers that were" had just allowed an "open" category, none of this would have ever happened.

Rifle PF is only in Classic.

As far as clubs using rifle PF as a reason to not shoot WB, I say BS. 150pf for pistol is more damaging to a target, because of 28+ rounds vs 7-10, it's just a reason they want to complain.

 

But now they got their Classic and we're still talking about it.

Even 1/4" and especially 3/8" mild steel will take jacketed bullets at 1400 fps all day long, so that's a non issue.  Armored steel will take at least double that depending on distance.

I also disagree with you that the pistol is more damaging to steel, it isn't momentum that damages steel, it's velocity.  I can blast my AR at AR500 with jacketed bullets at 3200 mv at 50 yards and it has and will take that for years without any major issues.  I shot my 20 practical exactly one time at a piece of AR500 at 100 yards, muzzle velocity 3850, bullet weight 39 grains, aka, 150 pf.  It left a 3/16" deep divot in the AR500 that's still there to this day.  A 55 grain M193 bullet at 3200 is 176 pf.  You can blast the steel at half that distance until your barrel is shot out and the only thing that'll happen is it'll chip the paint. 

[Flying W Ramrod]

6 hours ago, El Chapo said:

But now they got their Classic and we're still talking about it.

Even 1/4" and especially 3/8" mild steel will take jacketed bullets at 1400 fps all day long, so that's a non issue.  Armored steel will take at least double that depending on distance.

I also disagree with you that the pistol is more damaging to steel, it isn't momentum that damages steel, it's velocity.  I can blast my AR at AR500 with jacketed bullets at 3200 mv at 50 yards and it has and will take that for years without any major issues.  I shot my 20 practical exactly one time at a piece of AR500 at 100 yards, muzzle velocity 3850, bullet weight 39 grains, aka, 150 pf.  It left a 3/16" deep divot in the AR500 that's still there to this day.  A 55 grain M193 bullet at 3200 is 176 pf.  You can blast the steel at half that distance until your barrel is shot out and the only thing that'll happen is it'll chip the paint. 

Apples and oranges. Max fps is 1000 and 1400 for SASS. 

A 230 at 1000fps 28 times has more effect on the surface than a 200 at 1400 8 times. Basic metalurgy.

 

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Apples and oranges. Max fps is 1000 and 1400 for SASS. 

A 230 at 1000fps 28 times has more effect on the surface than a 200 at 1400 8 times. Basic metalurgy.

 

Neither are going to do anything to the steel at those velocities.  Hundreds of thousands of jacketed 124 grain hollow points at 1400 are going into mild steel poppers and plates every weekend at IPSC, USPSA, and Steel Challenge matches throughout the world every weekend.

[Boggus Deal]

10 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

 

Kinda funny, if the "powers that were" had just allowed an "open" category, none of this would have ever happened.

 

Kinda sad, now that this idiocy has ensued, attendance numbers are dropping. 

[Ruby Ruthless]

30 minutes ago, Boggus Deal said:

Kinda sad, now that this idiocy has ensued, attendance numbers are dropping. 

Hello Boggus,

Those are some pretty strong words to describe the current state of Wild Bunch and those working hard to ensure its success (WB TG's, WBRO Instructors, the WBROC and SASS). After reading through this thread and seeing your statement that attendance number are dropping, I thought I would do some digging into the number of Sanctioned Wild Bunch matches across the world just for some perspective. I have reviewed the number of Sanctioned Wild Bunch matches across the US and Internationally from 2019-2026 and here is what I found;

2019 - 17 

2020 - 19

2021 - 14

2022 - 16

2023 - 17

2024 - 16

2025 - 17

2026 - 27

From 2019 to 2024 the average number of Wild Bunch matches across the world was 16. And with 2024 being the year that the new changes were put into effect, rate of growth was not expected to double overnight or the next year. Folks needed to get their feet wet and test the waters before jumping head first. But as the number of matches in 2026 show, there are 11 more matches than in 2025. I think that says something in itself. But, let's just take it one step further since match attendance seems to be a common theme. More often than not, folks gauge their opinion from the number of competitors at larger matches like Land Run and END of TRAIL. With END of
TRAIL being the World Championships and the pinnacle of our sport, please see the Wild Bunch attendance numbers below from 2019-2026;

2019 - 72

2020 - Cancelled due to COVID

2021 - 60

2022- 142

2023 - 154

2024 - 120

2025 - 141

2026 - 164

From the looks of it, I wouldn't say that attendance is down by any means. This years World Championships shows the highest number of Wild Bunch Competitors at END of TRAIL. All that said, negativity breeds negativity and if we want this sport to continue to grow as the numbers are showing, than coming to discussions like this one about power factor, with a kinder approach seems like a good path forward. I personally have really began to enjoy Wild Bunch and look forward to seeing it grow! I hope these numbers shed some perspective and I hope you all have a wonderful day!

 

Best,

Ruby Ruthless

 

[El Chapo]

Plenty of us are thrilled about allowing .38 rifles.  Count me as one of them.  I never shot Wild Bunch and had no intention of buying a bigger rifle just to do it.  Now it's become one of my favorite shooting sports.  The rule of .40 or larger never made any sense and the power factor means nothing.  If anyone took their ball and went home because .38s get to play, there will be plenty to replace them.