Is this sight legal?

[Deacon KC]

Okay, I'm picking up a Savage 99 and plan on using it in Teddy Roosevelt. Would this sight be legal?

https://skinnersights.com/collections/rossi/products/universal-barrel-mount-peep-sight

[Garrison Joe]

Because it is barrel mounted, yes, it's legal for any SASS sponsored match.  good luck, GJ

[Eyesa]

Why aren't they legal for Plainsman in CAS? As on an H&R Buffalo Classic.

[Old Man Graybeard]

I am not sure...since it is a peep sight

[Old Man Graybeard]

It says period correct reciever mounted peep sight is legal for Teddy Roosevelt 

[Garrison Joe]

Quote

Basic Rules for the Long Range Competitions
- Front barrel sights may vary from simple blades to period hooded wind gauge designs using interchangeable sight inserts and having a spirit level mounted integral with the sight or sight base.
- Rear sights must either be open iron sights mounted on the barrel or original style tang or stock wrist mounted peep sights. Long range rear barrel mounted sights of the flip-up ladder type may use a peephole drilled through the sliding sight leaf. An example of this is the various ladder type sights used on the Springfield trapdoors.
- Bolt or receiver mounted sights are not allowed.

Guess that the Skinner barrel-mounted peep would NOT be legal for Long Range matches, since they are not open sights mounted on barrel.

But I find nothing that makes them illegal for ANY other rifles.  And, the Plainsman section of the cowboy rule book has no restriction that is additional to any cowboy match restrictions.

 

1 minute ago, Old Man Graybeard said:

It says period correct reciever receiver mounted peep sight is legal for Teddy Roosevelt 

Normally, receiver mounted sights of any design are illegal on SASS rifles, but since so many of the original lever action hunting rifles had receiver sights added, sounds like the Rules Committee made an exception for TR matches.  But this rule would not PREVENT you from using the Skinner barrel peep, as far as I know.    However, a receiver mounted sight would be my PERSONAL choice over the Skinner (for several reasons).

good luck, GJ

[Eyesa]

SHB pg.36 "Rifle sights" says no barrel or receiver mounted peep sights.

[Garrison Joe]

I will stand corrected for Skinner sights being used for cowboy shooting - I was looking at the 2024 version of the Cowboy rules.   But, the 2025 rules change the playing field!  Opening a 2025 version, I see that newly added rule expressly prohibiting barrel or receiver mounted peep sights.   

But the discussion here is for Teddy Roosevelt, a Wild Bunch category, where receiver peep sights ARE allowed.  Nothing like new rules and exceptions to them.

Yep, here's the WB applicable section - 

Quote

The 1895 Winchester and the Savage 99 originals or reproductions along with period correct receiver mounted peep sights are legal for Teddy Roosevelt.

Wow, the complexity just keeps on boiling up.

good luck, GJ

[Deacon KC]

Thank you all, yes, my first choice would be a receiver mounted peep, but no one is making new ones and the ones I have been able to find are either hideously over priced or are beaten to death junk. The Skinner appeared to be my best option. 

[Boggus Deal]

Is your receiver tapped for a tang mount?

[Deacon KC]

Not yet. 

[Sedalia Dave]

As has been pointed out, the SASS SHB does not apply to Wild Bunch or to Wild Bunch side matches. You have to use the WB Handbook.

 

From the WBAS pg 6

The 1895 Winchester and the Savage 99 originals or reproductions along with period correct receiver mounted peep sights are legal for Teddy Roosevelt.

 

Note the part about receiver mounted peep sights being period correct.  IMHO the Skinner receiver mounted peep sight is not period correct and would not be legal for Teddy Roosevelt. There is no mention of barrel mounted peep sights being legal for TR. Therefore by convention barrel mounted peep sights are not legal for TR as they are not period correct.

[Flying W Ramrod]

10 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

As has been pointed out, the SASS SHB does not apply to Wild Bunch or to Wild Bunch side matches. You have to use the WB Handbook.

 

From the WBAS pg 6

The 1895 Winchester and the Savage 99 originals or reproductions along with period correct receiver mounted peep sights are legal for Teddy Roosevelt.

 

Note the part about receiver mounted peep sights being period correct.  IMHO the Skinner receiver mounted peep sight is not period correct and would not be legal for Teddy Roosevelt. There is no mention of barrel mounted peep sights being legal for TR. Therefore by convention barrel mounted peep sights are not legal for TR as they are not period correct.

Actually, if it's not in the WBSHB you use the CASSHB.

If it's not specifically addressed in the WB Material, but is in the CAS, then the CAS takes precedence. 

[El Chapo]

3 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Actually, if it's not in the WBSHB you use the CASSHB.

If it's not specifically addressed in the WB Material, but is in the CAS, then the CAS takes precedence. 

I don't know why people seem to think that, but there is no textual basis for that.  WBAS is its own sport with its own rules, it is not subject to the rules for CAS.

That may have been the case a long time ago, I don't know because I wasn't there.  But it certainly isn't now.

[Cardboard Cowboy]

Agree 100% Chapo, once again people making up rules where none exist.  Where does it state anywhere that if it's not in the WBSHB, that we default to the CASSHB?  And it was not the case long ago, never has been and until it comes out from Misty or CC, it's not now.  I was biting my tongue, until you replied.  🙂

Cardboard

[Boggus Deal]

Like blackening out three dot sights and tied down holsters…

[El Chapo]

40 minutes ago, Boggus Deal said:

Like blackening out three dot sights and tied down holsters…

It seems like some people are always trying to find ways to ding and criticize other shooters.

I make enough mistakes without anyone helping find more ways to ding me.

[Deacon KC]

22 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

As has been pointed out, the SASS SHB does not apply to Wild Bunch or to Wild Bunch side matches. You have to use the WB Handbook.

 

From the WBAS pg 6

The 1895 Winchester and the Savage 99 originals or reproductions along with period correct receiver mounted peep sights are legal for Teddy Roosevelt.

 

Note the part about receiver mounted peep sights being period correct.  IMHO the Skinner receiver mounted peep sight is not period correct and would not be legal for Teddy Roosevelt. There is no mention of barrel mounted peep sights being legal for TR. Therefore by convention barrel mounted peep sights are not legal for TR as they are not period correct.

Your reasoning is exactly why I am asking on this. Because I have serious doubts the sight would be legal for WB. 

[Flying W Ramrod]

6 hours ago, Boggus Deal said:

Like blackening out three dot sights and tied down holsters…

At the LR WBTG meeting this was clarified. Traditional shooters must blacken the three dot site.

[Flying W Ramrod]

9 hours ago, El Chapo said:

I don't know why people seem to think that, but there is no textual basis for that.  WBAS is its own sport with its own rules, it is not subject to the rules for CAS.

That may have been the case a long time ago, I don't know because I wasn't there.  But it certainly isn't now.

This has been and will be the standard. If it's not listed in the WBSHB but is addressed in the CAS SHB, the CAS SHB is the rule.

 

[Boggus Deal]

9 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

At the LR WBTG meeting this was clarified. Traditional shooters must blacken the three dot site.

Like it always has been….

[El Chapo]

11 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

This has been and will be the standard. If it's not listed in the WBSHB but is addressed in the CAS SHB, the CAS SHB is the rule.

 

Numerous people have told you that was wrong and you posted it again.  The CAS shooters handbook has zero to say and zero bearing on the interpretation of the OTHER main match's rules.  Wild Bunch is not a side match.

[marshal stone]

CAS and WBAS have separate Shooter handbooks.

Show me where it states that if a rule is not covered in the WBAS handbook that you revert to the CAS handbook.

The only place they are combined is in the ROBS course. Then the rules separate to each discipline.

@Misty Moonshine correct me if I'm wrong.

Marshal Stone

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

7 hours ago, marshal stone said:

CAS and WBAS have separate Shooter handbooks.

Show me where it states that if a rule is not covered in the WBAS handbook that you revert to the CAS handbook.

The only place they are combined is in the ROBS course. Then the rules separate to each discipline.

@Misty Moonshine correct me if I'm wrong.

Marshal Stone

 

Back when I got certified as instructor, Legendary and Serenity both stated if the CAS has a rule and WB doesn't, go by the CAS.

When I took WB first, from Sutter Lawman, it was the same.

I believe you'll find it in ROIII

[Cardboard Cowboy]

And there is the problem, and y'all wonder why WB is dying.  Heck it's basically dead on the East Coast.  All that is left for WB here are "side match's" at Cowboy state match's.  So we do end up shooting Cowboy with a 1911.  Targets are pretty big, close and stages are blistering fast.  Because we are shooting the basic Cowboy stage layout.

When we have "certified instructor's" providing wrong information because they were told/instructed wrong, leads the sport into a very disorganized direction.  Ever thought of reading/researching what you were told to see if it's correct or not?  Just because you're an instructor does not make you correct or all knowledgable.  Heck I apparently can read/interpret better than some of these so called instructors.  

Ok now my analogy/story for this type of thinking.  If you have been in the military, you may be able to relate.  For many years I was a small arms instructor (for the DOD), training our troops for combat.  One of my favorite classes was teaching the M2 machine gun. I have truthfully trained tens of thousands of troops on this weapon, with most of these classes conducted down range.  Where they finally really care about the weapon.  And the biggest problem area was headspace and timing of the gun.  

There is one correct way to do it, only one.  But soldiers are taught an incorrect method, normally omitting one step.  And the gun will work for a while, but it will eventually fail.  Now on a training range, not that big of a deal (as long as the gun does not blow up), they end up "hot seating" one or two guns and get done with qualification.  Then have a pile of non operational guns.   At this point they complain on the M2 being a POS.  When it is not, but they did not know how to set the gun up properly, READ THE F**** MANUAL!

So I go in and give my classes, and I point out this one step they are missing.  I get the deer in the headlight look and all state "I did not know that, is that something new?"  I dig out my 1943 M2 TM, and say nope not new.  Most all in unison state I was trained to "screw the barrel in all the way and then back it out 3-4 clicks."  And they thought the Head Space was correct.  May or may not be.  Mostly not.  Will work for a while but as the barrel gets hot, head space goes out the window.

So they were trained, improperly, this way (by so called instructors).  Then they get stuck teaching a class at some later time, and what do they do.  Regurgitate this incorrect information.  It amplify's out of control.  Eventually the Army adopts a new M2 MG, called the M2A1 fixed headspace MG.  Instead of attempting to fix decades of wrong training, they come up with a new weapon system.  

We are heading down that same path, with WB.  A comment about CAS having a rule and WB doesn't, go by CAS.  Is like me telling that troop, if the M240B MG has you set headspace of the barrel "this way", then apply that to the M2 MG.  Apples and oranges, If you want WB to be its own separate entity.  Why would you ever refer back to a CAS entity?

And no you won't find it in the ROIII handbook.  ROIII is common sense.  All these crazy question lately are not common sense.  

Cold morning for the start of NC state Cowboy Match.  With a small four stage WB "Side Match" thrown in.

CC