SASS Ranger Category

[mortman]

Not enought WB matches, so:

-Ranger category with WB gear will shoot in SASS matches

-category could be scored as separate match if club chooses.

We get to shoot all SASS matches.

[BradyT88]

Do you mean Ranger will be a CAS category that allows WB guys to shoot in CAS matches?

Both CAS and WB are SASS matches. 

Our club let's WB guys shoot in CAS. We call it Wild Bunch Lite because we have them shoot 5 rd mags to keep the stages/patterns consistent with the Cowboy shooters.

Most of the big CAS matches around me will do a WB match the 2 days prior to the CAS match. 

[Flying W Ramrod]

25 minutes ago, BradyT88 said:

Do you mean Ranger will be a CAS category that allows WB guys to shoot in CAS matches?

Both CAS and WB are SASS matches. 

Our club let's WB guys shoot in CAS. We call it Wild Bunch Lite because we have them shoot 5 rd mags to keep the stages/patterns consistent with the Cowboy shooters.

Most of the big CAS matches around me will do a WB match the 2 days prior to the CAS match. 

One of the biggest mistakes shooter do. Do Not use 5 round mag sequences. You go to a real WB match, and use 7 round sequences, shoot 5 as you have at home, and move, SDQ.

Seen it done many times.

 

[mortman]

29 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

One of the biggest mistakes shooter do. Do Not use 5 round mag sequences. You go to a real WB match, and use 7 round sequences, shoot 5 as you have at home, and move, SDQ.

Seen it done many times.

 

Hasn't been my problem.

[mortman]

Here's another thing: SASS membership falling as aging members drop out. SASS doesn't talk about this, but look around.  Younger SASS shooters are mostly SASS kids or grandkids and they disappear as soon as girls and cars become age available.

Non SASS shooters have no use for single action sixguns as they are useless for self defense (try reloading one quickly).  On the other hand: lever gun, 1911 and pump shotgun are ideal for self defense.

Also: SASS target distances mimic real life shooting scenarios (see FBI stats on gunfight ranges).

[BradyT88]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

One of the biggest mistakes shooter do. Do Not use 5 round mag sequences. You go to a real WB match, and use 7 round sequences, shoot 5 as you have at home, and move, SDQ.

Seen it done many times.

 

This is part of why I haven't been shooting WB Lite. We have monthly WB matches also so I can still get my usual WB fix in. 

If we stopped doing WB matches I would probably push to shoot both WB and CAS categories in the CAS match. 

[El Chapo]

On 4/13/2025 at 9:29 AM, Flying W Ramrod said:

One of the biggest mistakes shooter do. Do Not use 5 round mag sequences. You go to a real WB match, and use 7 round sequences, shoot 5 as you have at home, and move, SDQ.

Seen it done many times.

Perhaps this is something that can be fixed with the next rule change.  I know CAS doesn't really like us moving with loaded guns, but literally every other handgun shooting sport allows movement, so it's really not clear why we have to be different.  Even Steel Challenge has one stage with movement.

Edited Monday at 04:34 PM by El Chapo

[Boggus Deal]

7 hours ago, El Chapo said:

Perhaps this is something that can be fixed with the next rule change.  I know CAS doesn't really like us moving with loaded guns, but literally every other handgun shooting sport allows movement, so it's really not clear why we have to be different.  Even Steel Challenge has one stage with movement.

PM sent.

[Abilene]

There are two clubs around here that shoot both Saturday and Sunday.  On Sunday they allow 1911 and call it Cowboy 1911.  Honestly, I don't recall if they are allowed to stoke the shotguns beforehand or not.  

[CC Moonshine]

On 4/13/2025 at 12:34 PM, mortman said:

Here's another thing: SASS membership falling as aging members drop out. SASS doesn't talk about this, but look around.  Younger SASS shooters are mostly SASS kids or grandkids and they disappear as soon as girls and cars become age available.

Non SASS shooters have no use for single action sixguns as they are useless for self defense (try reloading one quickly).  On the other hand: lever gun, 1911 and pump shotgun are ideal for self defense.

Also: SASS target distances mimic real life shooting scenarios (see FBI stats on gunfight ranges).

Good morning,

Just some clarity on this once again. SASS membership is GAINING every month! Vs. the number retiring or not renewing.

SASS sees a net gain of over 200 new members per month. Just thought I would help dispel false rumors.

Have a great week,

CC 

[CC Moonshine]

On 4/14/2025 at 12:33 PM, El Chapo said:

Perhaps this is something that can be fixed with the next rule change.  I know CAS doesn't really like us moving with loaded guns, but literally every other handgun shooting sport allows movement, so it's really not clear why we have to be different.  Even Steel Challenge has one stage with movement.

Contact your TG's for WB, it's now in their hands for the direction of the sport. Give them ideas and topics.

Thanks,

CC

[mortman]

1 hour ago, CC Moonshine said:

Good morning,

Just some clarity on this once again. SASS membership is GAINING every month! Vs. the number retiring or not renewing.

SASS sees a net gain of over 200 new members per month. Just thought I would help dispel false rumors.

Have a great week,

CC 

Has the membership list been culled to remove inactive members (not paid or dead)?  

[El Chapo]

7 hours ago, CC Moonshine said:

Contact your TG's for WB, it's now in their hands for the direction of the sport. Give them ideas and topics.

Thanks,

CC

Part of what makes SASS great are the people and the congregating at big matches and I will certainly do that.  I am "new" to SASS in that I've only been a member for ~4 years, but I'm not new to 1911 shooting sports, having shot tens of thousands of rounds out of 1911s in several other sports over the last 23 years and I am happy to share my experience with anyone who will listen.  I was also a certified range official for over a decade and I have held the timer and looked over the shoulder of some of the best handgun shooters who have ever lived.  Part of the challenge with SASS members is that CAS has been going on for decades and has a lot of traditions that would have to be abandoned to "borrow" these ideas from other shooting sports. 

As to SASS shrinking or dying, the stuff you're all talking about here with younger shooters taking a break when college, girls, cars, and other things get in the say is not unique to SASS.  Sarah Irish the first junior grandmaster in USPSA and as far as I know, she hasn't shot a match in a long time.  She's got to be ~30 years old by now and I have no doubt you'll see her and others like her back shooting someday.  Those who love the shooting sports won't leave them forever.  That people need a break from a hobby is not uncommon at all.  Once they have their own families and are established in their careers, they will be back.

I have many suggestions that could keep the cowboy heritage (steel targets at modest distances) and make Wild Bunch more exciting so it can appeal to shooters of other disciplines.  Hopefully someday we can see that happen.  One such suggestion, that I've made in other threads, is to raise the power factor to ~165 for both the rifles and pistols, but certainly at least the pistols.  Hopefully that would satisfy the people who are angry about the rule changes that allowed 38 rifles.  The movement is another one.  When that conversation happens among the people who can make changes, they will have to decide if tradition is more important than the gains from the rule changes.  Maybe you all will tell me to kick rocks.  I don't have any way of knowing.  All I can do is share my experience from other shooting sports and tell you how we did it safely and then those people can decide.

[CC Moonshine]

7 hours ago, mortman said:

Has the membership list been culled to remove inactive members (not paid or dead)?  

Of course. 

The data maintained is formed on new members, active members, and inactive.

[Missouri Ruffian]

Oh my how this thread has changed.  Let me take us back to the beginning and explain a few things.  I like Wild Bunch Action Shooting so the Eagle Rock Regulators started WB matches with one other Cowboy during “The Year of the Chinese Flu.”  It was slow to start (a couple of our planned matches that year were canceled (due to range shutdown with no personal contact.)  Now we’ve had matches with as many as fifteen shooters.

Nearly that long there’s been Wild Bunch Lite.  The original premise for WBL was not to interfere with CAS, but give shooters a chance to shoot their 1911’s more often.  This was accomplished by simply exchanging their single actions for two-five round mags in a 1911.  Everything else CAS remained the same.  Some, not many, have taken advantage of the opportunity.  In fact, I did this at our match this month, with a Colt 1911-22 (hadn’t loaded enough ammo).  It was near as much fun.  To add I’d say everyone/every time who’s shot WBL has enjoyed it.  Except maybe one shooter and that’s a story for a different time.

It’s important to note that as of this date we’ve normally shot WB in the summer on weekday evenings.  Not in the winter as we do CAS.  This has generally limited our attendance and opportunity for WB shooters to practice their art.

Now to my take on some of the questions/issues raised.  I couldn’t grasp the issue with loading five then seven rounds in a mag until I realized it was only about WB not WBL and the difference between local versus i.e. state matches.  However, even some of that discussion is not correct. It is allowed in both WB and CAS to move with loaded gun. The only caveat is the action must be open or the chamber empty (it applies to all guns) and that's the only way it should be allowed.  

Unfortunately, I experienced this at my first ever WB match, which happened to be a state match.  Scenario called for shotgun to shoot four then move and shoot two more.  Guess what I did?  Even though I experienced the pain I don’t want to take things like that away.  In hind sight as a new shooter to WB I should have loaded four and then loaded the two on the clock.  Some may call this a p-trap, maybe, I'd rather see it as an opportunity to excel. 

Okay, back to WBL.  We shoot WBL, as I’m sure many do, with a 1911 and two mags loaded with five rounds.  Obviously to mimic two single action pistols.  Works great and doesn’t hinder the flow of the CAS match.  On the same line the shotgun like CAS is not preloaded, but loaded during the shooting (usually four sometimes three or six). WBL rifle similar to CAS.

After a few years experience I now see no harm in having the shotgun fully loaded (usually four rounds) at the loading table as in regular WB.  “I’m a man, but I can change, if I have to…I guess.”

As for having WB matches at the same time as CAS matches, as may be the fashion of some, I’m adamantly again-it.  To me it’s like oil and water they don’t mix and when mixed what are they good for, absolutely nothing.  You can “tweak” them a little, aka Wild Bunch Lite, but a CAS match should not be the same as a WB match and vice-a-versa.  As for me, although I like WB a lot, it will stand on its own or there won’t be any WB matches, just WBL.

[CC Moonshine]

 

19 hours ago, El Chapo said:

Part of what makes SASS great are the people and the congregating at big matches and I will certainly do that.  I am "new" to SASS in that I've only been a member for ~4 years, but I'm not new to 1911 shooting sports, having shot tens of thousands of rounds out of 1911s in several other sports over the last 23 years and I am happy to share my experience with anyone who will listen.  I was also a certified range official for over a decade and I have held the timer and looked over the shoulder of some of the best handgun shooters who have ever lived.  Part of the challenge with SASS members is that CAS has been going on for decades and has a lot of traditions that would have to be abandoned to "borrow" these ideas from other shooting sports. 

As to SASS shrinking or dying, the stuff you're all talking about here with younger shooters taking a break when college, girls, cars, and other things get in the say is not unique to SASS.  Sarah Irish the first junior grandmaster in USPSA and as far as I know, she hasn't shot a match in a long time.  She's got to be ~30 years old by now and I have no doubt you'll see her and others like her back shooting someday.  Those who love the shooting sports won't leave them forever.  That people need a break from a hobby is not uncommon at all.  Once they have their own families and are established in their careers, they will be back.

I have many suggestions that could keep the cowboy heritage (steel targets at modest distances) and make Wild Bunch more exciting so it can appeal to shooters of other disciplines.  Hopefully someday we can see that happen.  One such suggestion, that I've made in other threads, is to raise the power factor to ~165 for both the rifles and pistols, but certainly at least the pistols.  Hopefully that would satisfy the people who are angry about the rule changes that allowed 38 rifles.  The movement is another one.  When that conversation happens among the people who can make changes, they will have to decide if tradition is more important than the gains from the rule changes.  Maybe you all will tell me to kick rocks.  I don't have any way of knowing.  All I can do is share my experience from other shooting sports and tell you how we did it safely and then those people can decide.

Hi El Chapo,

Thanks for the detailed post and a belated welcome to SASS and we are always excited to have experienced folks join the family.

Your best path to use your experience is work with your local clubs and the TG's or become a TG once the opportunity is available.

You are spot on regarding young folks in the sport, we see it all the time. They come in with parents or grandparents into the sport as teenagers or younger, love the sport, then become adults with massive responsibilities and are starting families and careers so they have no spare time for any shooting sports. But once life calms and money isn't so tight, we see several return in their late 30's or 40's. There is no formula to be able to keep them in any sport during that becoming a responsible adult phase other then reminding them we are here when they want to come back. All other marketing efforts underway with SASS is producing results as evidence of the new members each month which is outpacing the number going inactive or not renewing. 

As for future changes to Wild Bunch, that is now in the hands of the TGs'. But I can say that for 10+ years WB attempted to pull shooters from other disciplines and it proved unfruitful in spit of their best efforts. That is why a two year revamp took place with hundreds of hours of study, research, and conversations. The re-launch is what we have today as the starting benchmark. It has proven very successful in this relaunch with tripling the SASS clubs now offering WB and the questions and feedback we receive all the time is 99% positive. There are several topics already in the TG's hands for 2025 and I'm sure more will be added for the votes in October. As for increasing the power factor, that was studied hard and there is some variations of options in the TG's hands currently. Raising it above 150 isn't really an option, that would cause a mass exit of new WB shooters from the CAS side. A large part of the current uptick in WB participation is the ability for SASS CAS shooters to grab their CAS guns and ammo and a 1911 and do WB. But any shooter is welcome to increase their own PF if they find it more fun as long as velocity doesn't exceed max. but there is zero reason to force others o increase to an uncomfortable level. 

Have a great balance to your week,

CC

 

[El Chapo]

4 hours ago, CC Moonshine said:

As for future changes to Wild Bunch, that is now in the hands of the TGs'. But I can say that for 10+ years WB attempted to pull shooters from other disciplines and it proved unfruitful in spit of their best efforts. That is why a two year revamp took place with hundreds of hours of study, research, and conversations. The re-launch is what we have today as the starting benchmark. It has proven very successful in this relaunch with tripling the SASS clubs now offering WB and the questions and feedback we receive all the time is 99% positive. There are several topics already in the TG's hands for 2025 and I'm sure more will be added for the votes in October. As for increasing the power factor, that was studied hard and there is some variations of options in the TG's hands currently. Raising it above 150 isn't really an option, that would cause a mass exit of new WB shooters from the CAS side. A large part of the current uptick in WB participation is the ability for SASS CAS shooters to grab their CAS guns and ammo and a 1911 and do WB. But any shooter is welcome to increase their own PF if they find it more fun as long as velocity doesn't exceed max. but there is zero reason to force others o increase to an uncomfortable level.

There seems to be a great deal of resentment from allowing the 38 rifles.  I've observed that in person and on this forum.

Personally I think it's more important to draw shooters from other disciplines rather than trying to be like CAS, especially if the scheduling is like it was at EoT where I would have had to choose one or the other and couldn't have been there for both.  Abandoning this idea that WB should be CAS with 1911s is the #1 thing that will draw people from other disciplines.  No more sweeps and round counts on every stage would go a LONG way.

The power factor of 165 (actually 175 internationally IIRC) has proven plenty safe and comfortable in IPSC for many decades.

If we don't care about power factor, 9mm 1911s should be allowed.  I just loaded all my WB ammo for Geronimo Trail last night and I will be shooting 165-170 pf ammo.  I doubt a 45 1911 would run all that great at 150, but either way I wasn't going to try it; there are no book loads with 230 grain bullets that soft.  Maybe someday I'll mess with 200s again and push it down some, but it's really not worth it.  150 with 9mm would require heavier bullets/pushing the velocity a bit, but it could easily be achieved--there's factory ammo that makes that.  They could keep the same categories in place and allowing 9mm 1911s to play wouldn't change the game at all.  Until then, I'll continue to play with God's caliber.

Factory 45 ACP is over 195 power factor by the way; 165 is nothing.

[CC Moonshine]

24 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

There seems to be a great deal of resentment from allowing the 38 rifles.  I've observed that in person and on this forum.

Personally I think it's more important to draw shooters from other disciplines rather than trying to be like CAS, especially if the scheduling is like it was at EoT where I would have had to choose one or the other and couldn't have been there for both.  Abandoning this idea that WB should be CAS with 1911s is the #1 thing that will draw people from other disciplines.  No more sweeps and round counts on every stage would go a LONG way.

The power factor of 165 (actually 175 internationally IIRC) has proven plenty safe and comfortable in IPSC for many decades.

If we don't care about power factor, 9mm 1911s should be allowed.  I just loaded all my WB ammo for Geronimo Trail last night and I will be shooting 165-170 pf ammo.  I doubt a 45 1911 would run all that great at 150, but either way I wasn't going to try it; there are no book loads with 230 grain bullets that soft.  Maybe someday I'll mess with 200s again and push it down some, but it's really not worth it.  150 with 9mm would require heavier bullets/pushing the velocity a bit, but it could easily be achieved--there's factory ammo that makes that.  They could keep the same categories in place and allowing 9mm 1911s to play wouldn't change the game at all.  Until then, I'll continue to play with God's caliber.

Factory 45 ACP is over 195 power factor by the way; 165 is nothing.

Hi El Chapo,

I fully realize that on here (the WB wire) there is several comments and dislike of the 38 rifles and other changes made. But in the whole world view from the hundreds (possibly thousands) of members jumping into the sport of WB from CAS it was the right call (100%). We ( during the 2 + years of research and discussion) ever wanted to dismiss anyone's opinion, but it was crystal clear it could not continue like it was. 

My opinion, is that WB can stay true to its roots, and still gain in popularity. Targets not at CAS distance but not at old WB distance either. .38 rifles, shouldn't matter and let people shoot what they bring within the rules. It is not a viable option to market or pull from other shooting sports in any great number, (this has been studied and researched to death). WB will survive and thrive based on CAS shooters coming over to WB as an extension of the sport of SASS as a whole. Many of the WB bigger matches are run in conjunction with the timing of other CAS matches such as state and above sanctioned CAS matches. Take Indiana State for example ( our match) we are offering a 10 stage WB match Thursday and Friday before the CAS match Saturday and Sunday in June. The applications are looking great, and 80% of the WB apps are also shooting the CAS match. I'm betting 95% of them will be using 38 rifle and their standard CAS ammo. This is the winning formula.

As for PF, a 1911 will run down to 142 PF pretty reliably, so the 150 makes sense. Again, if someone wants to run 170 PF run it. If a local club wants to offer a category of PF above 180 they can. But the masses want 150 PF for the 1911. My wife (Misty Moonshine and I) shoot a 162* PF 230 grain. 9mm would be cool to offer some day maybe but we run into a velocity issue vs. PF so that will be a TG and WB-ROC issue to sort if needed. Also .38 would struggle to go to the 150 PF so that option would decrease participation ( already studied at length). 

Please keep in mind that the wheels of progress must move slow enough to rationalize and realize all possible outcomes and pitfalls. So none of the changes will be overnight but will come in the proper time through the TG's, ROC, and SASS. 

Thanks for your support and have a great evening,

CC