DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Gosh gj,if I have offended you that was not my intention. I'm sorry ! I didn't realize we were having an argument. I thought we were having a conversation with different points of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Now, the closest example of what we have done so far in WB is with the Win Model 12. Winchester also made, on I suppose the exact same equipment, the Model 25, a solid-frame light weight cheaper variation of the Model 12. Our rules allow only the Model 12. Several folks have asked over the years, can I run a Model 25? The answer has always been NO. Several folks have pointed out that some guns were made to the Model 25 specs but were stamped Model 12. Those have been allowed in, as no one really wanted to have to get out the collector's books and serial numbers lists (if they even exist) and noodle out whether it is really a 25 or a 12. Just go by model stamped on the gun, and make life simple and easy both for Match Directors and shooters trying to decide in a gun shop whether a gun is legal for WB or not. I think we have exactly the same problem here with the Yugo model numbers. Except the rules for BAM rifles did not list acceptable models numbers, just the phrase (approximately) "built and could have been issued up to the end of WW II." The easy way - knowing that the Yugo Mausers were model numbered for the year of design, and anything designed before 1946 is good for BAMM. The hard way - trying to cipher out various variations and loopholes and waving of arms about the gun being built on the same production line, except something like 20 years later (after the end of WW II in the case of the Model 48). Priceless - having clear rules that all of us are willing to follow, no exceptions, no wiggle room. And, if a club wants to allow some newer model at local matches, they are sure free to do so - just let the shooter know it won't fly at a major match. You do realize most Mod 48 Yugos have bent bolt handles and the Mod 24 and 24/47s have straight handles? The biggest, but not the only, improvement in those later model guns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Sure I realize the bent bolt handles and you do know that some 24-47 were refurbed with bent bolt handles? Model 25 are not built on the exact same machinery. They are often confused but are not the same without going into details here but there are several major differences. A model 12 was never built with a solid frame. But using this example about model 12 then are you saying y12's are not legal because they were introduced in the 70 's and had investment cast receivers along with a few internal and external modifications? Also what about a scrubbed m48 with no markings from the factory,no crest either . Some with milled parts some with sheet metal? Does that shooter get turned away because nobody knows what it is and therefor could be illegal? as far as the yugo we can split hairs to the point of a 24/47 should not be allowed because it is plain that it was post ww2 just by its stamping as far as date of remanufacture and has many new parts mixed,force matched so it is really just a post war production gun same as the 48 and by that way of thinking all the arsenal rebuilt mosins some of which were rebuilt into the seventies would be illegal. Which come to think of it all 98's that were given to other countries that they ran thru the full rebuild program into the sixties........well you get idea. My point is the 48 is legal because it is either a continuation or it is a reproduction. BAMM is not a historical reenactment. It is a shooting sport. I would like to keep it that way. One more thing you mentioned anything designed before 1946 is good for BAMM , when do you think the m48 was designed? The correct answer is before 1924. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garand Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Why was the age limit for BAMM set at the end of World War 2 in the first place? The time frame for the movie "Wild Bunch" was circa 1916. Lets try and be at least a little period correct. If I wanted to shoot a World War 2 re-enactor match, then I would bring out my Lee Enfield #4 Mk 1. I think that we are doing ourselves an injustice by widening the parameters for the competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Firearms availability is the simple answer. we want more competitors not less. If your personal standards dictate a pre 1916 mindset then by all means do that. Get a early mil spec gun and enjoy. Shoot the BAMM competitions in the style era you want. If you are going that early you could go full period correct with the eagle snaps on your clip belt and all. Now that would be neat! Dusty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garand Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 We have quite detailed requirements in the manual for our 1911's, we have 2 classes for our 1911's. Why can't we have a Traditional & a Modern class for BAMM rifles? Traditional would be pre 1916 designed rifles w/ lead bullets, Modern would be any military bolts after that date using jacketed ammo? Any thoughts? Members that shoot in a Traditional Class would also be equipped to shoot the Bucky O'Neil Competition at Winter Range if they choose to. Shooting accurately a 100 year old rifle with cast bullets is far different than shooting a newer rifle only 70 years old. Actually at winter range this year I believe my cartridge belt did have "eagle snaps", I think I was the only one actually wearing a cartridge belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I really think BAMM should stay as simple as possible at this stage. Several of the ranges around here won't let jacketed be shot. I'm curious though when you look at BAMM and its reloads on the clock are you thinking krag or? As far as 70 year old versus 100 year old ,mausers carried the exact sights thru that whole time period. 03's with barrel sights and mark ones,mosins are basically the same barrel sight thru there whole production. 03a3,mark 4 and Jungle Carbine went the peep rear sight for ww2. I'm sorry I just understand what that far difference is that you speak of. :) now you know if you want to go this pre 1916 route we gotta change your name......it just ain't gonna fit! Dusty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bodie Tom Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Try to open up another thing to shoot. TRY to keep it simple. And off we go into this and that, etc. My thought, doesn't matter really, is allowing an 03-a3 peep into the mix was questionable.... But seriously. I guess I just don't get it really anymore. We can rule, rule, rule. And somewhere, somehow, someone is going to want or ask "well can I do/use this" It started simple. Now even BAMM is starting with all the what if's........ WWII as issued rifle to military. Seems pretty simple. We shoot made in 2015 1911's. So, do they need to manufactured prior to say 1945????? The 1911 requirements have been so polluted to be period correct it's almost a joke. But, we carry on....... The bottom line is the person pulling the trigger.... Always has been, Always will. Rant off..... Flame on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 WBT, my point exactly! We are not a reenactment group. We are a group of competitors shooting old guns. I want this game to grow and growth is keyed to how many folks can play the game . to play the game we need rifles and those need to be priced where everybody that has a desire can afford one so looking at the surplus market we still have a lot of great mausers and mosins to be had cheap and if a mans feeling flush there are those 2500.00 collector grade 03's. The one thing that they all have in common is equal footing in BAMM. You are correct that it is the man behind the trigger that wins the game. It's a great movie that this game is loosely based on but it's just entertainment it never claimed to be historically correct and neither should we. we should try for movie correct ,as a good friend of mine says .The point of BAMM is not the gun but the course that's run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garand Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Rifles with cast bullets are more difficult to find an accurate load for, Krags with the speed loading capability are few and far between if there are any outside of museums, therefore someone who chooses a Springfield automatically has a distinct advantage. What does the cost of rifles have to do with this thread? And the reason I chose my "name" is the fact that I use it on a number of other forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 :) garand,hey take it easy.i was joking and the joke was your name is a ww2 battle rifle and you want to date the guns pre 1916. Cost of equipment is always asked about the old guns along with availability.As far as accurate lead loads in BAMM rifles I've never had anything easier to make shoot well with lead bullets. As far as krag vs. 03 Springfield's if a competitor goes out and buys a krag with the known reload requirments then he put himself at the disadvantage no one did it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I really think BAMM should stay as simple as possible If you really do, then nothing is simpler than: WWII as issued rifle to military ANYTHING more complicated is just .... more complicated. Good luck, GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 GJ, how true! Now if folks can just have enough common sense to realize that production of ww2 rifles continued past 1945 we have got it made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garand Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 If we are "just a group of competitors", maybe we should just show up in designer blue jeans, T shirts and baseball caps? Wild Bunch has been organized as represented by the shooters manual and it has been expanded for the better. All this is, is organizing another facet of Wild Bunch. And frankly, trying to make long range rifles run with cast bullets is one of the most frustrating experiences in life !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Garand, really I'm serious out of 20 rifles all of them shot lead without any work or load development truly the easiest guns I've worked with. Maybe there is something that you've overlooked in your load development. It shouldn't be that difficult. Tell me what rifle are you loading for? Also what bullets are you using now and what powder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 BAMM is not bullseye and the 100 to 200 yard range is certainly not long range by any means. The lead pills I shoot out of my Mosins do the job fine. It's the old shaky shooter that causes the misses. By no means should we dis-allow any of the military bolt action Mausers. I do not care when they were built. That line of "reasoning" is much too unreasonable. Hell there may have even been Moisins built after WWII. Let 'em all shoot. Last BAMM match I shot at TX state two years ago they even let me shoot a Moisin with an ugly gray plastic modern stock! Dusty is SO right -- we are trying to grow BAMM not throttle it. I know at CVV lead pills are required per the land owner and that means handloads. Precludes cheap surplus ammo. If your range allows, shooting the surplus will get you a lot more shooters I do sincerely believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garand Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 First off, I'm using the powders that I currently have in stock and up here in Canada the supply is worse than the US. I'm using Red Dot, Unique, IMR 4198 & IMR 4895 currently. While I have good 100 yd results in .32-40, .38-55 & 6.5x 55mm with Red Dot & Unique, I can't seem to find a good reliably accurate load out to 250-300 yds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Garand, of course there are lots of variables but if you're getting good accuracy at 100 and falling apart at 200 plus it has to be the bullet destabilizing. Could be too lite of bullet, could be running to slow, GC bullets are great . You might not have a bunch of powders but the ones you have are good. Have you tried the 4895 at 70 percent of the starting load with lead gas check bullet in its proper weight? Another thought barrel condition on the 6.5 ? Might lead quickly if it's dark or rough. Unique and red dot might be a little position sensitive but I wouldn't think enough to make the wheels fall off. Hope this helps keep us posted. Dusty Boddams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Garand: For the Swede - many a cast bullet shooter has come to believe their accuracy sweet spot is 1500-1600 FPS. No faster! And that military barrel usually has a VERY long throat. And the fast twist needs a heavy for caliber bullet. So, I have worked up some loads that seem good to at least 200 yards (3" groups). They use the Lyman 266673 bullet (150 grains nominal) cast with 16 Brinell hardness lead (air cooled) and gas checked. Sized 0.001 over bore diameter (in my case 0.268). Lubed with Carnuba Red lube from White Label Lube. http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/ Over 2400 or 5744 or Reloader 7. In increasing order of accuracy for me. I tried 4198 but found accuracy fell off from Rx7. Keep on working, either your alloy is a little soft (bullet deforms the long nose during firing) or you are pushing it too slow to stabilize or too fast to hold a good group. Find a chrono to shoot your loads over, with 6.5x55 it's really critical to hit a good muzzle velocity for your gun. Good luck, GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUSTY BODDAMS Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Garand: For the Swede - many a cast bullet shooter has come to believe their accuracy sweet spot is 1500-1600 FPS. No faster! And that military barrel usually has a VERY long throat. And the fast twist needs a heavy for caliber bullet. So, I have worked up some loads that seem good to at least 200 yards (3" groups). They use the Lyman 266673 bullet (150 grains nominal) cast with 16 Brinell hardness lead (air cooled) and gas checked. Sized 0.001 over bore diameter (in my case 0.268). Lubed with Carnuba Red lube from White Label Lube. http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/ Over 2400 or 5744 or Reloader 7. In increasing order of accuracy for me. I tried 4198 but found accuracy fell off from Rx7. Keep on working, either your alloy is a little soft (bullet deforms the long nose during firing) or you are pushing it too slow to stabilize or too fast to hold a good group. Find a chrono to shoot your loads over, with 6.5x55 it's really critical to hit a good muzzle velocity for your gun. Good luck, GJ Great advice from a man that actually loads the swede.! You know GJ it seems like the 1500-1700 foot range is the sweet spot for several of these old mil spec bolt guns. Dusty Boddams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garand Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Thanks for the suggestions, I am using in 6.5x55, the 150 grain GC Lyman bullet currently. As for the .32-40 & .38-55 they are straight lead. I've got about 8 different 6.5x55mm loads ready for testing the week, if nothing else pops up. And I do have my own chrony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Straight lead alloy slugs are hard to keep from leading barrels above about 1400 FPS, even if you use the best possible lubes. And barrel condition contributes a lot. Have you thought about maybe a 1:30 tin-to-lead slug for those dash calibers? That would be what factories "back in the day" were using. How's your bullet weight consistency? Less than about 0.5 grains light to heavy, as cast? Lots of weight variation usually indicates voids in the base area from poor casting techniques....I'm sure you know that, but voids are another common cause of inaccuracy at longer ranges. And the tin in the alloy helps with complete bullet fillout, too. Good luck, GJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garand Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I'm buying my bullets from both a manufacturer & a friend who casts, mainly because I am a high volume shooter and just don't have the time to engage another pastime. I have had excellent results with Red Dot & Unique, but when I move to an extruded rifle powder like 4198 & 4895 my groups go all over the place. Unfortunately there is little to choose in alternate powders these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coyote Kincaid Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 Thanks for the suggestions, I am using in 6.5x55, the 150 grain GC Lyman bullet currently. As for the .32-40 & .38-55 they are straight lead. I've got about 8 different 6.5x55mm loads ready for testing the week, if nothing else pops up. And I do have my own chrony. Dang! I'm off getting ready for state and this thread becomes hot, hot, hot!!! I push my 38-55 out to 200 and 300 yards with Unique and a GC bullet from a supplier in Vermont and hit an 18" gong all day. Now with my 6.5x55, every match I have been to with it allows jacketed as long as it's not surplus with a steel core. It drills the gongs at 100, 200 and 300 with RL-22. I am looking at some GC bullets from the same supplier for when I do hit that match that is lead only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Frank Norfleet Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Two BAMM rule questions: 1) My Krag Carbine is unaltered except that the previous owner cut the stock and added a rubber recoil pad. It is an ugly 1950's red pad and I was thinking of replacing it with a new black one so it wouldn't look so bad. Is a recoil pad an external modification? 2) When I shot Service Rifle we would paint the front sight bright red or green. Is that an external modification? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.