Target distance

[Jorge]

I did not want to hijack FJT's thread, but he and CN Double bring up a good topic.  How close is too close for Wild Bunch?  In a ten stage match, how many could be "close" for fun and variety.

To ask the question, what distances would be acceptable to our Wild Bunch Shooters?

[JJ]

How Close Should They Be?

Hummm . . .  What an interesting question. I believe the answer to be this: It depends on whom you are asking?

Ask the persons who shot in the El Rey / La Reina categories at cowboy matches when they are lumped into the Modern or Traditional WB Categories at the State or higher level because there weren't five or more persons in their categories and the match director would not open up those Senior categories for whatever reason. Yup - been places where this has happened. Ask the persons who have shot stages where the scenarios are so complicated that 90% of the posse they are on received a Procedural. Ask those persons who have to struggle seeing rifle/pistol targets that are set at the back of distant berms where the front sight of the pistol is larger than the targets. And of all the places I have been shooting WB, very few clean the stages, no matter how the range is set.

So am I advocating targets being set up close and personal. Not by any means. I know how I set WB targets when we had our range. Targets were 16"x"16' for squares and circles were 16" in diameter for our club. The pistol targets were set anywhere between 18' to 22'. Rifle targets at around 35', rifle/pistol targets at 25' and shotgun targets around 27'. I always used a tape measure. The Texas Stars, dueling trees, hostage/hostage taker targets were right at the 15' mark. These are just what I did and your mileage vary at your own clubs.

I will make another observation . At State level Cowboy Match in the state where I live, the then President of the club made some remarks that went something like this:

As he stood at the front of the audience he surveyed the trophies laid out to the front and sides of him. As he addressed the audience, he stated that statically about 10% of the audience would receive the those trophies. The other 90% of the audience were there to watch and see who were awarded those trophies. He went on to further say, those 10% of the audience receiving those trophies, would probably be in the top 10% no matter where they went. He state that he was writing stages, he struggled with who should he be writing a match for? Those top 10%  who will continue to be in the top 10% no matter how challenging a match is or the 90% who will come back to support the club knowing that most will never have a chance at wining an award or ever seeing they names in the top 10% of whatever match they are attending.  I believe that same challenge should be applied to any Cowboy or WB Match no matter what the level of the match is. Your audience will dictate what to write.

No matter which group stages are being written for, attempt to make a challenge for everyone without writing stages that are only for the top 10%.

In other words, everyone's organization is different. Do what works for you at your organization. When you travel and you don't care for the hosting clubs written stages let your pocket book do the talking. 

Thanks for reading - J.J.

PS - Remember, all of those writing stages for any match, this is an entertainment business. Too hard, too close, too far away, too easy - well I'm sure you get the jest.

[Boggus Deal]

Well… Having discussed this with all of the major steel target manufacturers in the country, they all say no less than ten yards for pistol targets.

My suggestion is ten to fifteen yards for pistol targets. 

[Jorge]

So, Less than ten yards is UNSAFE, according to manufacturers.  So, basically ALL CAS matches and many WBAS matches are unsafe.  

Did they comment on target size, distance from the ground and support mechanism, or was this just a blanket statement to "cover?"  Was it jacketed, lead, or all bullets?

 

The real question is at what rifle and pistol distances, with appropriate targets, would people NOT return to shoot a match?  I have witnessed people not returning to a venue due to targets (small) and distance (beyond even former guidelines).

 

[CC Moonshine]

Hello all,

I hope all is well for all of you.

Understand that the lawyers and legal advice from the insurance companies for all target manufacturers are going to "strongly recommended" a 10 yard or more distance.

They are also taking into account, the wear vs. value of your purchase. More distance will make for lighter impact impressions, and the targets will "last longer" for increased perceived value.

SASS does not mandate minimum or maximum distances, SASS recommends distances. 

Match Directors need to design a safe (first), fun and entertaining match for the members in order to get them to return.

The hard part in this, is as with anything that is entertaining, or not a necessity to live, it's subjective to each person. Think of movies or TV shows, pick a movie and you can find a percent that loved it, a percent that thought it was good, a percent that thought it could be better, and a percent that hated it. Match Directors need to work with attempting to provide an event that no one hates and that the majority like or loves. 

We all love a challenge, but we also need to leave a range not feeling defeated. In 2006 when we started Paradise Pass, we had a MD that thought if he could have no clean shooters he was doing his job. He wanted the match to be a epic challenge and it lost it's appeal for most shooters. Number were tanking, and after a couple years, we made a change. Once we set the matches for roughly 20% clean shooters our attendance tripled ( sometimes as many as 75 monthly shooters). Absolute proof of concept, more people enjoyed the matches. 

Challenge of a match can come in many forms. Our concept (just one of many that work) is to provide one hard element per stage. Examples:

• Far targets
• Closer but small targets
• High round count
• Wide spread target sequence
• Hard sweep or sequence
• Heavy gun transition
• Lots of movement

Just to name a few.

We set our CAS targets from 3 to 9 yards and our rifle from 12 to 20. Our WB will use some of our CAS stages and focus on our rifle targets for pistol, but will also sweep the close targets sometimes with a mag (7 rds). for our State match we will add some longer distance targets to the lineup, and then pull them before the CAS match. Most of our steel here is brand new in the past few years and is 16 x 16 or 20 x 20 AR 550 steel. 

There will no doubt be a million opinions on all of this, and that's all great. It's like favor and toppings for ice cream, we all have our favorites.

At the end of the day, I think we are all very blessed to have shooting sports, friends in the game, and the ability to go to matches and enjoy.

I hope I didn't run of course to much.

Thanks and everyone have a fantastic weekend,

CC

 

[Boggus Deal]

On 10/31/2024 at 11:05 AM, Jorge said:

So, Less than ten yards is UNSAFE, according to manufacturers.  So, basically ALL CAS matches and many WBAS matches are unsafe.  

Did they comment on target size, distance from the ground and support mechanism, or was this just a blanket statement to "cover?"  Was it jacketed, lead, or all bullets?

 

The real question is at what rifle and pistol distances, with appropriate targets, would people NOT return to shoot a match?  I have witnessed people not returning to a venue due to targets (small) and distance (beyond even former guidelines).

 

Does it really matter? When you’re standing there in front of a judge and he says “the target manufacturer said no closer than ten yards and you put them at three feet?”

[Boggus Deal]

On 10/31/2024 at 11:05 AM, Jorge said:

The real question is at what rifle and pistol distances, with appropriate targets, would people NOT return to shoot a match?  I have witnessed people not returning to a venue due to targets (small) and distance (beyond even former guidelines).

 

And being a shooter, I’d not return to a match because the targets were too close and dangerous before I’d not go to because I had a miss or two. 
But hey, if you can shoot, you can shoot. If you can’t well, you complain because the targets are too small or too far. 

[Whitey James]

Being still very new to SASS I don't have any real hardline stances. Is it fun to hear the steel ring? You bet! does it suck to miss? Of course. 

I don't really get a say in how the range is set up so I shoot what is before me. 

I have been shooting steel for about a decade on my private property. I only buy/use AR500 steel so there is no denting and the targets remain smooth and flat and I maintain at least 10 yards of distance because that was what I had read was the safe minimum. I have never had a single issue.

Now that I have been shooting matches at a couple of clubs, I have gotten whacked a few times with lead shot and bullet fragments when I am spotting. Take that for what it's worth.

[Boggus Deal]

6 minutes ago, Deplorable Dan said:

Being still very new to SASS I don't have any real hardline stances. Is it fun to hear the steel ring? You bet! does it suck to miss? Of course. 

I don't really get a say in how the range is set up so I shoot what is before me. 

I have been shooting steel for about a decade on my private property. I only buy/use AR500 steel so there is no denting and the targets remain smooth and flat and I maintain at least 10 yards of distance because that was what I had read was the safe minimum. I have never had a single issue.

Now that I have been shooting matches at a couple of clubs, I have gotten whacked a few times with lead shot and bullet fragments when I am spotting. Take that for what it's worth.

There is a reason the target manufactures say 10 yards…

[Happy Jack]

In the "early days" when we first set up Wild Bunch we followed the target mfgrs. recommendation on distances. We set pistol targets at 10-12 yds. SG targets at 12-15 yds and rifle at close to 20 yds. It was a lot of fun.  Aparently what is fun has changed but the lawyers haven't.

[Doc Holloman]

I can't think of the cowboy match where I haven't been hit by spall off the targets, sometimes from the next stage over.  Once or twice drawing blood.  Always assumed that was part of the game.  

One club I shoot at vetoed Wild Bunch /Cowboy 1911 "Open" category shooting 9mm for fear  the blowback would be excessive. 

[Whitey James]

I got hit pretty good yesterday at a match, one stage over spotting and took some lead shot to my lower lip. Stung like a SOB. I wonder, does this mean I have "technically" been shot in the face?

[Sedalia Dave]

Too far will not keep me from returning to a match. Neither will targets that are small, cut into odd shapes or that are too big.  What will keep me away are targets set too close. I've seen targets set 6 feet from the firing line. I don't care how the steel is angled, targets at that distance are TOO darn close and If I'm aware that they are that close I'm not showing up.

 

Target sequences shouldn't be so complicated that they are P-traps, That said Variety is a good thing.

Edited November 28 by Sedalia Dave

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

I like a good mix of target distances and difficulty.  But, the human mind is geared to process one event at a time.  So...close targets can be fun to whale away on, and you can arrange more complex scenarios, if shooter is not overly worried about sight acquisition and proper trigger pressure.  Longer distances - keep it a bit simpler, so the shooters can focus on their sights. In other words - good advice to match directors in ANY discipline - only have one problem for the shooter to solve, per stage.

And you can easily fill the need by those who wish for more difficult pistol targets, by occasionally using the Rifle targets as R/P targets and also by sometimes allowing the option of shooting the Rifle targets with the Pistol.

Mix it up, and have some fun!

Cheers,

FJT