Minutes of the Wild Bunch Territorial Governors meeting held at the 2024 Western Territorial Wild Bunch Championship, Hurricane, UT

[Wooden Nichols]

Please see the attached .pdf file.

Minutes of the Wild Bunch Territorial Governors Meeting_sent.pdf

[Jorge]

Interesting reading.  

[Flying W Ramrod]

As I understand it, the technology used at the EOT WBTG meeting was supposed to do "voice to text" for the meeting. It didn't work so, Misty and Ruby have to sit through 3+ hours of the meeting and transcribe the entire thing.

This, on top of all the conventions, meetings, shoots etc, are a big reason the EOT minutes aren't up yet.

Be patient or contact SASS HQ and volunteer to transcribe the minutes for them.

 

[wyliefox]

Wish I could have attended.

By reading the minutes, it appears to me that the meeting was fruitful.

[fireball7709]

Wait, what? 

"Safety is a great concern with current version of the SHB. There are no mandatory checks for
Pistol safeties before matches. This could lead to unsafe situations during malfunction clearing.
These checks seem to have been totally disregarded in recent issues of the SHB. Again, if pistols
safeties are not checked and both pistols and magazines not weighed, undesirable
gamesmanship will returns"(Highlight mine)

What "safety" are they proposing to "check" that would make the gun "safer" during malfunction clearing????

I can see "weigh in" before a match.....  "sir, are these 26 mag's all you intend to use?!"🤪

 

[El Chapo]

On 6/15/2024 at 8:07 AM, fireball7709 said:

Wait, what? 

"Safety is a great concern with current version of the SHB. There are no mandatory checks for
Pistol safeties before matches. This could lead to unsafe situations during malfunction clearing.
These checks seem to have been totally disregarded in recent issues of the SHB. Again, if pistols
safeties are not checked and both pistols and magazines not weighed, undesirable
gamesmanship will returns"(Highlight mine)

What "safety" are they proposing to "check" that would make the gun "safer" during malfunction clearing????

I can see "weigh in" before a match.....  "sir, are these 26 mag's all you intend to use?!"🤪

 

My "other" 1911 sports they do weigh your gun and you get a serious sanction if you're overweight.  I've never been safety checked and I can't see why that'd be necessary in a sport where we're not allowed to holster loaded guns.  Why does it even matter if the safety works if you're not holstering with the gun loaded?  That's the whole reason it's there.  Weight is pretty hard to game.  If you have a gun with the grip panel areas not milled out and add a tungsten full length guide rod, you might bust the limit by a few ounces, which makes less of a difference than shooting 160 pf ammo does.

If they really cared about gaming, the pistol pf would be raised to 175-180, not 150.  150 pf for 45 ACP is weak.  Even 165 pf is modest compared to factory hardball ammo.

[fireball7709]

7 hours ago, El Chapo said:

 

My "other" 1911 sports they do weigh your gun and you get a serious sanction if you're overweight.  I've never been safety checked and I can't see why that'd be necessary in a sport where we're not allowed to holster loaded guns.  Why does it even matter if the safety works if you're not holstering with the gun loaded?  That's the whole reason it's there.  Weight is pretty hard to game.  If you have a gun with the grip panel areas not milled out and add a tungsten full length guide rod, you might bust the limit by a few ounces, which makes less of a difference than shooting 160 pf ammo does.

If they really cared about gaming, the pistol pf would be raised to 175-180, not 150.  150 pf for 45 ACP is weak.  Even 165 pf is modest compared to factory hardball ammo.

If someone is going to cheat, they'll find a way around it.  It's been my experience in CAS, that those that truly try to do things outside the rules, are never the top 10 shooters.  And lets call them cheaters, not gamers, there is a difference.

My comment about weight was directed at magazines.  You get a couple dozen shooters at a state level side match, and I used my current mag "collection" number of 26 to weigh(some shooters have more), that is over 600 magazines that would need to be weighed in.(plus the 24 guns)  That is a bit burdensome at 7-8am in the morning before the match starts.  Add to that that most folks show up with mags loaded.  So after weigh in, now your 24 shooters are going to be standing around loading all their mags....600 times 5 or 7 rounds.  Meanwhile, the cheater just starts loading the other "heavy" mags in his cart??  A weigh in is ridiculous.  Shooters mags are collected for them after shooting a stage, someone will notice if they are significantly weighted.  Address it then by calling it, there is a rule in place.

The minutes conclude that a safety check will make malfunction clearing(MC) safer.  Has no one thought that through?  The thumb safety is never engaged because of the rules of the way the sport is shot.  The grip safety will be depressed most likely during a MC, or the gun has probably left their hand.(there's rules for that)  That leaves the drop test safeties(depending on gun series) that are unlikely to be checked, because I'm not letting you drop my gun to test it.  Someone is hand wringing, carrying a grudge or has another agenda with this whole "safety check".  The minutes conclude "gamesmanship will return" without weigh in and safety checks.   I must not be much of a gamer, I can't figure out any time advantage to guns with safeties that don't work.  To take that a step farther, I don't I see any safety issue with guns being used that the safeties don't work, because of the narrow rules within which we currently use the 1911.  I'm open to hearing about how I'm wrong though.

I'm not clear on who "they" are, in your last comment, when you reference gaming in regards to PF, but you can't call it gaming or cheating if someone is playing within the rules(making PF).  Just stop.  The minutes make no reference to pistol PF needing to be addressed.  How would raising PF on the pistol make the sport better anyway?  

I don't like all the rules we currently have either, but as a sport/business, it's my opinion Wild bunch/SASS is struggling to get things in place to address that.  I don't even know a WB TG in my area to talk to, so until there is some hierarchy actually in place we're all just talking. 

 

[Boggus Deal]

The minutes conclude that a safety check will make malfunction clearing(MC) safer.  Has no one thought that through?

Fireball, no, they haven’t…. Most of the current rule makers never could shoot Wild Bunch, for one excuse or another. 

And while it’s not hard to have a weigh in at one stage, during a match. You are correct. It’s not hard to catch weighted magazines during a match. I’ve caught people trying to run weighted magazines. Typically, it was either a shooter from another sport …

 

[El Chapo]

5 hours ago, fireball7709 said:

If someone is going to cheat, they'll find a way around it.  It's been my experience in CAS, that those that truly try to do things outside the rules, are never the top 10 shooters.  And lets call them cheaters, not gamers, there is a difference.

My comment about weight was directed at magazines.  You get a couple dozen shooters at a state level side match, and I used my current mag "collection" number of 26 to weigh(some shooters have more), that is over 600 magazines that would need to be weighed in.(plus the 24 guns)  That is a bit burdensome at 7-8am in the morning before the match starts.  Add to that that most folks show up with mags loaded.  So after weigh in, now your 24 shooters are going to be standing around loading all their mags....600 times 5 or 7 rounds.  Meanwhile, the cheater just starts loading the other "heavy" mags in his cart??  A weigh in is ridiculous.  Shooters mags are collected for them after shooting a stage, someone will notice if they are significantly weighted.  Address it then by calling it, there is a rule in place.

The minutes conclude that a safety check will make malfunction clearing(MC) safer.  Has no one thought that through?  The thumb safety is never engaged because of the rules of the way the sport is shot.  The grip safety will be depressed most likely during a MC, or the gun has probably left their hand.(there's rules for that)  That leaves the drop test safeties(depending on gun series) that are unlikely to be checked, because I'm not letting you drop my gun to test it.  Someone is hand wringing, carrying a grudge or has another agenda with this whole "safety check".  The minutes conclude "gamesmanship will return" without weigh in and safety checks.   I must not be much of a gamer, I can't figure out any time advantage to guns with safeties that don't work.  To take that a step farther, I don't I see any safety issue with guns being used that the safeties don't work, because of the narrow rules within which we currently use the 1911.  I'm open to hearing about how I'm wrong though.

I'm not clear on who "they" are, in your last comment, when you reference gaming in regards to PF, but you can't call it gaming or cheating if someone is playing within the rules(making PF).  Just stop.  The minutes make no reference to pistol PF needing to be addressed.  How would raising PF on the pistol make the sport better anyway?  

I don't like all the rules we currently have either, but as a sport/business, it's my opinion Wild bunch/SASS is struggling to get things in place to address that.  I don't even know a WB TG in my area to talk to, so until there is some hierarchy actually in place we're all just talking.

 

The way it is done in the "other" sport is not before the match.  The chrono/gun weighing is a stage just like all the others.   Other posses would be shooting and we would be subjecting our equipment to inspection.  Even in that sport, they do not weigh every magazine, but I suppose they could if they wanted to.  Realistically, if they don't care that much about the weight of the magazines, maybe they shouldn't be regulated, or the number should be so high that nobody bothers to game it.  I had a plastic mainspring housing that I installed on my gun to sure it'll make weight with any magazine.

I can't think of a time advantage for safeties either.  My grip safeties all work even though they do not have to work in the "other" sports.  I also agree with you that it doesn't matter if the thumb safety works or not as long as the rules continue the way they are.  I have no idea why someone would think that was a worthwhile exercise.

The "they" are whoever think it'd be productive to worry about a few ounces of weight or a grip safety.  My point is that if those people really wanted to even the playing field and make a few ounces of weight matter even less, power factor would level it quickly.  I agree with you that if the rule is 150 and everyone's happy with that, then it should be fine with it like that.  I do think a more realistic power factor would make the game better in that it would make it more challenging and the guns more reliable with factory weight springs, but the reality as applied to me is that I'll install whatever spring and load whatever ammo I need to play the game, so it does not matter much at all.  But it sure would to the person who thinks a weighted magazine is going to make him a better shooter.