Abe E.S. Corpus

A question about a dropped 1911 was asked in a Facebook group spawned a couple of discussions. First the rules: A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (defined as the LT to the ULT) is a SDQ. Sweeping anyone with an unloaded firearm (without the qualification of on the firing line) is a SDQ. It is not unusual at WBAS matches locally to announce that long guns will be cleared on the line at the conclusion of the stage. I don't see that as altering a safety convention. The 1911 is, of course, cleared on the line by the TO. OK, so the first question is an easy one: If no ULT is in use, what is the end point of the firing line? In my view, the places in the stage where the long guns were discarded are the ULT and the firing line ends when the last gun has been cleared on the line. What if the pistol is the last gun cleared-is the firing line still in effect until the pistol is holstered? Second question is a softball, too. In the original FB post, the TO cleared the 1911, the shooter tabled the pistol and the TO them cleared the long guns on the line. As the shooter retrieved the pistol he dropped it, resulting in the TO being swept and the 170 was broken. My view, after checking the SHB, was that the shooter failed to follow the mandatory commands for clearing the 1911, the last step of which is to holster the pistol. That is a SDQ, probably at the point when the shooter took his hand off of the cleared, tabled pistol. Any disagreement so far? The final questions are not specific to WBAS but involves a dropped unloaded pistol off of the firing line. I always understood that to be a no call. But if it sweeps someone or breaks the 170 is that different? A friend of mine who is a very experienced TO maintains that only a gun in hand or otherwise under the shooter's control is capable of sweeping. I think that's a logical interpretation. Thoughts?

Thanks, GJ. I like an occasional “shotgun heavy” stage. In general I prefer stage instructions to be concise and not cover issues already addressed in the conventions but I see your point about putting a six round limit on the “preload”.

At our recent match the last stage featured eight shotgun targets. The rule says that the shooter may load the magazine “with the number of rounds required for the initial target sequence”. I think an unmodified ‘97 will hold five and a Model 12 will hold six “standard” 2.75” shells. We were speculating whether a shooter might be able to use Aguila “minishells”, or a handloaded equivalent, to increase magazine capacity and gain an advantage on stages that have an “initial target sequence” greater than six. I’ve heard different opinions whether a shorter shell would feed properly but let’s assume it could be done without an illegal modification to the shotgun. The rules prevent making a shotshell a smaller diameter but length is not addressed. Certainly the stage instructions could specify that no more than six shells may be loaded but I’m just trying to confirm whether the short shells would be legal. I’m going to add a “thank you” to Happy Jack, Boggus Deal and the WB Rules Committee for the time and effort spent in reviewing and revising the rules. The changes have been well received here.

And it appears that we can load up to eight rounds in the 1911 magazines now? Do you think pistol sequences will continue to be multiples of seven?

A holster for a single action revolver will serve as a Wild Bunch holster. We never reholster the 1911 on the clock so you don’t need an elaborate holster. You will need magazine pouches.

Thanks, Jack.

Looks like a CAS rule change is coming to eliminate the automatic SDQ for leaving the LT with the rifle hammer cocked or halfcocked. We all know that a rifle hammer at halfcock is a no-call in Wild Bunch. Should WBAS follow suit? Some differences in the rules between the two sports is necessary but since the rifle is used the same way that there may be some advantage to “conforming” the rules.

We are pretty hard pressed to have any WBAS matches in my area (people are working on it), much less a BAMM side match but I would love to try it. At a recent gun show I ran across an FN 1924 manufactured for the Mexican government in 7mm Mauser. I thought, what could be better? I let that one go. I happened to stop by my local Cabelas today to pick up some ammo boxes and what did they have in the "Library" but a 1903A3 and a K31. Just right for BAMM, right?

Thanks, Travis.

Any hints of what might be changing?

Lots of suitable powders; many have been mentioned. If you like the faster burning powders you might like Clean Shot from Shooters World. It is a very fine grained powder. If you prefer a midrange powder such as Unique, consider Universal or IMR's Unequal which is its "answer" to Unique.

I've not had the pleasure of meeting Frank or Boggus but their contributions to the community through this forum is always positive.

I started cowboy action seven years ago. Atbthat time it seemed that most stage instructions were specific as to shooting positions, target designations and even target order. Over time, though, I noticed some changes: sweeps could begin on either side of a target array. The shooter begins at Position A but can move to either Position B or Position C. I have seen this general trend in Wild Bunch. My local club lost its Wild Bunch match day to Three Gun. There was a growing demand among club members and numbers matter. I tried it a couple of times. One of the features that I found interesting was how shooters were sometimes given the option of which firearms to use when engaging targets. For example, on a particular stage the shooter could engage KDs with pistol or shotgun. Very interesting. I shot a Wild Bunch match yesterday. On one stage there was a line of poppers. Stage instructions said to engage three KDs with the rifle, then shoot the shotgun, and with the pistol alternate between a static target and KDs. From the written instructions it appeared that the rifle targets were the ones on the right end of the array but in the walkthrough the MD said that the shooter could engage any three KDs with the rifle. Because the static target was above the right side of the target array, I decided to engage the poppers on the left side of the array, so that less movement was needed to alternate pistol shots between the static target and the remaining KDs. I thought the flexibility in that stage was interesting. It made me think. Has anyone seen this in Wild Bunch matches? Think it's a good idea?

More good pointers. Two local clubs used activators that had to be shot. Those were cowboy matches but the stage instructions covered what to do if the shooter missed the activator. These matches were after the WBAS match that prompted this topic so I was very interested in knowing how to shoot it or call it. We've been shooting clay-launching poppers with shotguns for years in cowboy matches but we never faced the one shot/two misses problem because of the Comstock Rule.

I agree but in this instance the stage instructions are silent and there is no alternative target so I am trying to figure out how this would play out under the Stage Conventions.

Thanks, GJ. I ran a search before posting but did not see the prior discussion. I omitted discussion of the options that would result in a Procedural but those are certainly possible outcomes.

I have a copy of PaleWolf Brunelle's "Shooter's Choice" document in my SASS notebook; it explains a shooter's options when a shooter ejects a live round from the rifle in the middle of a shooting string that requires targets to be engaged in a particular sequence, such as a sweep. The "Shooter's Choice Doctrine" also applies to cap-only ignition in a percussion revolver or a bad round in a cartridge revolver. In very simple terms, the shooter can skip the target that he/she had engaged when the problem happened, taking the five second penalty for the unfired round. Alternatively the shooter can re-engage that target, and choose to take the penalty for the unfired round without reloading, or "reload at the end of the string for the last target"; this last option would result in no penalty. The broader question is whether "Shooters Choice" applies in Wild Bunch. I would think it does. The narrower question is whether the option to reload the pistol to make up for an ejected round (typically as the result of clearing a malfunction) applies only "at the end of the string" as written in PaleWolf's excellent document. Consider a stage with a 20 pistol round count. The shooter is to sweep five pistol KDs from the starting position, then move to engage the remaining pistol targets. Shooter drops P1 and P2, then has a malfunction and ejects a round. Shooter re-engages and drops P3, and drops P4. Pistol is at slide lock but assume shooter has a clean match going, is OCD and bothered by targets left standing. Can he reload and engage P5 even though it is not at the end of the pistol string? I would say so, and consider the "end of the string" language is due to the differences in how cowboy guns are reloaded versus a 1911. Of course, our shooter will have to put the pistol at slide lock in order to move to the second shooting position. Thoughts?

The situation that prompted the question was a jacked out shell. Just to clarify, let's assume there are six shotgun targets, three clay launching poppers, each with a clay to be engaged in the air. Shooter engages the first popper but misses it, so no clay is launched. Same result with second and third popper. Assuming shotgun is not the last gun on the stage the shooter has to eject the unfired rounds before discarding the shotgun. Call is six misses but there is no additional penalty for the unfired rounds, right?

Thanks.

I had assumed that an otherwise compliant 1911 with an external extractor, like the S&W or the Sig Sauer, would be legal. I will watch for an update.

Thanks, all. Turns out the spring was trimmed when the action work was done. My first main match shotgun was a Coyote Cap 1897 that was well broken in by the two or three prior owners. It spoiled me a little. Part of my issue is that my M12 is a later model with the larger diameter forend and grip area on the stock. I acquired a corncob forend and plan to narrow the grip portion of the stock. I think this will give me a better hold on the gun.

I ran a search but did not see this addressed. My Model 12 has had a little attention from a local gunsmith but I'm pretty sure he left the springs alone. It takes more effort to cycle as compared with the two '97s I have owned so I am wondering whether the stock hammer spring can be shortened a little. Reliable ignition is more important to me than having the lightest and slickest gun on the range. That said, can I safely cut a coil or two?

The Belton Bushwhackers (local SASS affiliated club) occasionally offers a game called "Road to Perdition" which is much like WBAS except that a semiauto Thompson is used for the rifle. They also offer Wild Bunch at those matches.

I have two double magazine pouches for reloads and I carry a fifth mag to the LT to start off the stage. Our local matches are usually 20 pistol rounds per stage, seldom more so my five magazines give me five extra rounds in case a malfunction causes me to toss out a live round. I used to carry a "Barney mag" loaded with one round but I grabbed it by mistake in a match and got one round off when I wanted five. Keep in mind that a loaded magazine can be carried in a pocket. We were using Model 12s before they were officially allowed. I don't have trouble remembering to show it to the TO. I forget other stuff! Lots of used Model 12s out there. I don't feel quite as confident with the M12 as I do with a '97, having more trigger time with the former, but that's nothing to do with the gun. For lack of another way to carry extra shotshells to the line, I wear a single loop shotgun belt for Wild Bunch. If I need more than six shells on a stage (rare in my area). I pull them from the belt and single load through the ejection port.

A recent match I attended had a stage with six shotgun targets. There were three steel poppers that launch a clay target into the air when hit. As a side note, when we use these "clay poppers" in cowboy matches the clay is usually a bonus target. In the WBAS match each steel popper and each clay was a target to be engaged. The shooter in question hit the first five targets but jacked out a live shell when the last clay target was in the air. After the clay hit the ground, the shooter (with no prompting by the TO) loaded a new shell through the port and fired it into the berm. He went on to engage rifle and pistol targets without incident. He was assessed one miss for the clay not broken in the air. WTC #1: Was it necessary for the shooter to fire the 6th shot to avoid an additional penalty? I say no because he "engaged" the clay by cycling the shotgun and pointing it at the target, and because this was a moving target that could not be "re-engaged" (unlike a static target), there was nothing to be gained by loading and firing the additional shell. WTC #2: Is there any penalty for loading and firing the extra shell, given that there was no way to re-engage that target (that would seem like a "hard horse" call to me). Hypothetical WTC #3: Assume the shooter fires at the last popper but fails to drop it. Since that target is the activator for the aerial clay, is there any way for the shooter to avoid being assessed two misses for one "missed" target? As an editorial comment, I really enjoy reactive steel targets but they can lead to some interesting WTC situations.