Abe E.S. Corpus

I’m not an organizer, just a participant, but the Gunpowder Creek Regulators in Lenoir, NC are hosting the Carolina Wild Bunch Shootout on Saturday April 25, 2020. Six stages with lunch for $40. Usually some good door prizes, too. Gunpowder Creek hosted last year’s Shootout and it was a lot of fun. The host club has suspended matches for the time being due to COVID-19 so the “Carolina Shootout” has been postponed. I will try to re-post when a new date has been announced.

Another Facebook inquiry about the legality of a new Kimber that has, in addition to other features, lightening cuts in the slide. As I understand the specs the barrel is not ported. Since the cuts are not specifically listed in the Modern category’s approved features, does this make the pistol illegal? I think the idea behind these cuts is to reduce the slide mass. In that sense it is more than cosmetic so I’m thinking it is not a legal feature.

The rifle does not have to be chambered in .45 Colt. Anything forty caliber or greater which includes .38-40, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, .44 Magnum or .44-40. Lots of choices. Your Rossi 92 in .45 Colt would be fine. Wild Bunch puts more emphasis on the pistol than the rifle. When Wild Bunch rules were first written the only legal shotgun was the 1897 (that and the 93/97 replica that was never approved for CAS). Later the Model 12 was added and it has proven very popular. Good shootable Model 12s are often less expensive than original ‘97s. That said, the ‘97 is still a good gun. For me the ‘97 points more naturally than the Model 12. Both are great shotguns.

I live in South Carolina which is, of course, the home of PSA. A number of years ago they announced that they would begin selling their own 1911. Some time later the complete pistols showed up for sale, in carbon and stainless. I never heard bad things about the pistol but eventually the frames and other showed up for sale on PSA’s website as closeouts. A friend of mine built one and was satisfied with it. I don’t think they have been available for years. Today my daily email message from PSA arrives and the first item for sale is a PSA Generation 2 1911 frame for $99 (carbon steel, stripped). It’s the first I have heard of a Gen 2. Any WB shooters have experience with the Gen 1? Heard anything about the new Gen 2?

No question that metal lined holsters are legal for cowboy shooting but the CAS rules don’t say that holsters must be made of leather or canvas. For my part I’d consider a leather holster with an internal (not visible) liner of another material to be legal. One of the Facebook comments was that a drop holster was not legal for Wild Bunch. I disagree with that statement.

No. According to the interpretation of the rule set forth in this thread, the eighth round in the magazine is “illegally acquired”. If you use it you earn a penalty.

There was a post in a Facebook group asking about the legality of an older holster apparently intended for IPSC “back in the day”. I am always amazed at the willingness of uninformed people to provide advice. Anyhow, there were a couple of features on this particular holster that are not specifically addressed in the Handbook: 1. The holster had a metal liner (presumably sandwiched between layers of leather); 2. The holster was a drop loop design (I would not have thought this was illegal) and the gunbelt was equipped with two metal hooks that attach to a belt worn higher. We may never see this particular belt and holster at a match but lined holsters, mag pouches and belts are not uncommon so I’d like to know whether an internal liner runs afoul of the requirement that holsters and magazine pouches be made from canvas or leather. The rule also says that holsters and mad pouches “must be of traditional or military design”. I’m not sure exactly where the edges are, especially in regard to the modifier “traditional”. If a WB holster is otherwise legal in regards material and coverage, I’ve not questioned it. Thoughts?

Due to scheduling issues we will not offer Wild Bunch at the November match. I am hoping we can put it together for December. If so I will start a new thread.

The match was called off due to a poor weather forecast. I failed to post an update here. We may try again in November. I will start a new thread when we have rescheduled the match.

I am waiting to see the stages. We may have some rifle targets after all. We will likely shoot five stages.

I asked this question in December but I must not have phrased it clearly. I am not advocating for the right to load eight rounds but if it is the intent of the Committee that an eighth round cannot be used without penalty a revision or clarification is needed.

It is my understanding that as a result of the elimination of the rule that set a maximum number of rounds in a magazine that a shooter may load eight and use eight, even though pistol strings are patterned on multiples of seven. Assume the stage instructions call for a 14 round double tap sweep. Under the 2018 rule, the shooter was limited to 7 rounds in a magazine. Choices were to shoot seven, reload from slide lock and shoot seven, interrupting the double tap between rounds 7 and 8, or shoot six, perform a tactical reload and shoot eight. I think the 2019 rules provide a third option: load first magazine with eight rounds, shoot to slide lock, reload and shoot six. Do I want to keep track of magazines loaded with different numbers of rounds? Maybe not, but I think this would be legal under the 2019 SHB.

The Model 12 that I bought was a later model with the wide forend but I was able to find a used “corncob” forend and replace it.

Plans are in the works to hold a Wild Bunch match as an “option” at the Greenville Gunfighters’ monthly match on October 27, 2019. Early indications are that we will write stages around pistol and shotgun only (I’d like to see an all shotgun stage). More details to follow.

We had 17 shooters at the match. The “no rifle” format allowed us to focus on shotgun and pistol. The regular WB shooters experienced very few pistol malfunctions. Thanks to Cotton Gloves and the folks at High Country Cowboys for putting the match together.

Cotton Gloves posted on Facebook that the High Country Cowboys in Wolf Laurel, NC are hosting a six stage “no rifle” Wild Bunch match in August 31. 168 pistol targets! Looks like two stages with six shotgun. I’ve marked my calendar!

Good discussion. These situations are likely to arise with the pistol especially now that the rule limiting the number of rounds that can be loaded in a magazine has been eliminated.

Thank you, Jack. I posted my question here knowing that social media discussions are not official. I do appreciate your statement about the downsides of clearing on the line. I had not considered that to be a departure from a safety convention and so not allowed at a sanctioned match. We cleared on the line on my posse at a recent match held at a club with a common firing line, in part because it was not holding up people going downrange. My local club shoots in bays so it’s a choice between holding up the reset for a brief period versus having a posse member work the ULT. That said if the Rules Committee considers the practice as a “departure” from the rules I will rethink it.

A question about a dropped 1911 was asked in a Facebook group spawned a couple of discussions. First the rules: A dropped unloaded gun on the firing line (defined as the LT to the ULT) is a SDQ. Sweeping anyone with an unloaded firearm (without the qualification of on the firing line) is a SDQ. It is not unusual at WBAS matches locally to announce that long guns will be cleared on the line at the conclusion of the stage. I don't see that as altering a safety convention. The 1911 is, of course, cleared on the line by the TO. OK, so the first question is an easy one: If no ULT is in use, what is the end point of the firing line? In my view, the places in the stage where the long guns were discarded are the ULT and the firing line ends when the last gun has been cleared on the line. What if the pistol is the last gun cleared-is the firing line still in effect until the pistol is holstered? Second question is a softball, too. In the original FB post, the TO cleared the 1911, the shooter tabled the pistol and the TO them cleared the long guns on the line. As the shooter retrieved the pistol he dropped it, resulting in the TO being swept and the 170 was broken. My view, after checking the SHB, was that the shooter failed to follow the mandatory commands for clearing the 1911, the last step of which is to holster the pistol. That is a SDQ, probably at the point when the shooter took his hand off of the cleared, tabled pistol. Any disagreement so far? The final questions are not specific to WBAS but involves a dropped unloaded pistol off of the firing line. I always understood that to be a no call. But if it sweeps someone or breaks the 170 is that different? A friend of mine who is a very experienced TO maintains that only a gun in hand or otherwise under the shooter's control is capable of sweeping. I think that's a logical interpretation. Thoughts?

Thanks, GJ. I like an occasional “shotgun heavy” stage. In general I prefer stage instructions to be concise and not cover issues already addressed in the conventions but I see your point about putting a six round limit on the “preload”.

At our recent match the last stage featured eight shotgun targets. The rule says that the shooter may load the magazine “with the number of rounds required for the initial target sequence”. I think an unmodified ‘97 will hold five and a Model 12 will hold six “standard” 2.75” shells. We were speculating whether a shooter might be able to use Aguila “minishells”, or a handloaded equivalent, to increase magazine capacity and gain an advantage on stages that have an “initial target sequence” greater than six. I’ve heard different opinions whether a shorter shell would feed properly but let’s assume it could be done without an illegal modification to the shotgun. The rules prevent making a shotshell a smaller diameter but length is not addressed. Certainly the stage instructions could specify that no more than six shells may be loaded but I’m just trying to confirm whether the short shells would be legal. I’m going to add a “thank you” to Happy Jack, Boggus Deal and the WB Rules Committee for the time and effort spent in reviewing and revising the rules. The changes have been well received here.

And it appears that we can load up to eight rounds in the 1911 magazines now? Do you think pistol sequences will continue to be multiples of seven?

A holster for a single action revolver will serve as a Wild Bunch holster. We never reholster the 1911 on the clock so you don’t need an elaborate holster. You will need magazine pouches.

Thanks, Jack.

Looks like a CAS rule change is coming to eliminate the automatic SDQ for leaving the LT with the rifle hammer cocked or halfcocked. We all know that a rifle hammer at halfcock is a no-call in Wild Bunch. Should WBAS follow suit? Some differences in the rules between the two sports is necessary but since the rifle is used the same way that there may be some advantage to “conforming” the rules.