Doc Holloman

K, according to Outlaw Gambler, the threaded parts of a Chinese 1897 are not interchangeable with Winchester parts, but the non threaded parts, like the extractors and extractor plungers, are interchangeable. At any event, I've decided to send him the gun for an action job, and he will replace those parts in the process. Thanks all.

Shot our Club's "Cowboy 1911 2.0" Category On Sunday. Not many shooters on Sundays, particularly on a cold windy January Day. Only Three of us shooting 1911s (and one was a guest.) so we shot with the single Cowboy posse. We shot the Cowboy Pistol and Rifle Targets, two mags each, with the 1911s. The Rifle targets were not bad. Some of the pistol targets were so close I practically shot them from the waist (not literally, but almost). For Rifle, we shot the Cody Dixon Targets (6 rounds, using the Cody Dixon sequence) at about 40-50 yards. This required a change in mindset from Wild Bunch shooting -- slower aimed fire. Also the .45 Colt ammo I had loaded for Cowboy shooting probably needs to be loaded a little heavier for the longer range. And it took me a couple of stages to figure out what the sight picture/rear sight setting should be. For Shotgun we shot the four Cowboy knockdowns, but were allowed to have our shotguns stoked with four shells. Wild Bunch legal shotguns allowed. No split shotgun targets (which are rare in our cowboy stages) so no movement with the shotgun. Sinch we were shooting both the Cowboy Pistol and Rifle targets with the 1911s, there was movement with the pistol on 4 of the 5 stages, including one where we shot shotgun in between, which meant grounding the 1911 and then recovering it. That made it interesting. I was a little disappointed with the turnout, but 4 of our regular WB shooters were out with health reason or otherwise (face it, our club membership is getting old. At 65, I am one of the younger WB shooters.) Also, 3 of our regular WB shooters were shooting Cowboy (getting ready for EOT.) Finally, shooting on Sundays never draws the participation of Saturday matches. We may lose a couple of our WB shooters completely over the shift to Cowboy 1911. I'm going to stick it out for a while. We will see. Doc sends.

Will the right hand extractor for a Winchester 1897 fit in a Norinco 1897 bolt? Was trying to diagnose an ejection problem this morning and the right extractor and plunger spring fell out and disappeared into the Black Hole around my bench. Fortunately I found the plunger. Chinese 1897 parts seem to be hard to find so I was wondering if the Winchester parts would work here.

New suggestion to me from another member of the Club Board: A variation on "Cowboy 1911." Shoot with the regular Cowboy possees (usually about 15 shooters.) Shoot two 5-round mags at the Cowboy pistol targets] Shoot one 5-round magazine at the cowboy rifle targets Shoot the rifle at the Cody Dixon Targets (50 yards) (6 rounds) Shoot the shotgun cowboy style (unstoked) 4 rounds. While I can see he is trying to compromise, I still have issues with it -- no movement with the shotgun. My Model 12 would probably not be allowed. Not sure about my 97 Trench gun. In fact I might as well use my side-by side as I am totally hopeless single loading the 97. Also the Cody Dixon targets seem a stretch with a pistol caliber rifle unless I really tune the sights. I may take my .38-40 out this weekend and see if I can hit them with it. But I guess my biggest problem is that I am trying to shoot a hybrid Wild Bunch in the middle of a bunch of Cowboy shooters. It is a different culture. I really dont like the Rush,Rush, Rush of the large Cowboy posses I get the feeling I will be the odd man out -- dressed different, shooting different guns. And off course I will still have more brass to pick. Really not interested in being a one person category.

The idea from Dusty Boddams has merit. And a WB posse needs only five and good organization to function - the TO, three spotters (one keeping score) and a shooter. Oh, I took Dusty's idea and ran with it. Wrote up a detailed proposal for the club board. Crickets.

Sounds like your Cowboy stages are much more challenging than ours. l've seen movement with the shotgun once. Never seen movement with the pistol. 3 yards is the norm for pistol with targets often closer. Only 4 knockdown shotgun targets all in a row. Our cowboy stages are designed to generate clean matches where speed is the discriminator.

J.J.: That would be a little better than what our club is offering right now. "Cowboy 1911" basically just substitutes the the 1911 with 2 five round magazines for the two revolvers. No movement with the 1911. Cowboy rules apply with the shotgun (gun staged unloaded). Cowboy distances (typically half those we have used for Wild Bunch) to targets, and only 4 shotgun targets. Our club has about 10 regular WB shooters. I am told that is not enough to justify the effort. The closest Club shooting full fledged WB on a monthly basis is about 5 hours away. It was WB that got me interested in SASS shooting. Cowboy was secondary. Eliminating monthly WB for me is like signing up to play Hardball and then being told we will only play Softball. Doc

A few questions, though: Are your cowboy targets set at 3 yards for pistol and 5-6 yards for rifle, like ours often often are? Are you allowed to fully load the shotgun (6 shells) and shoot six target shotgun strings? Are you allowed to move with the pistol or shotgun to shoot separated targets? Do you shoot multiple pistol mags (4-5) at a stage? Doc

I agree that original Model 12 trench guns would be fairly rare (sources differ but somewhere between 25000 and 40000 produced during WWI and WWII, compared to probably twice that number of model 97 trench guns.) But considering that an original 97 trench gun is also a valuable collector's piece ( $3000-5000) we don't generally see them used in matches either. I certainly have never seen one. What we see are Chinese clones or civilian 97 sporting or riot guns converted to trench guns. I really don't see the difference between Norinco putting a heat shield on a 97 and a shooter putting one on a Model 12. But that's me.

This came up over on the General Wild Bunch Forum but I figured I would post it here to try to get some clarity. Trench Guns, Model 97 and Model 12. It is pretty clear that an original Model 97 trench gun is legal, as are the Norinco and other trench gun clones. However, the sentence in the rules that says "civilian or military style" refers specifically to model 97s. It makes no mention of Model 12 trench guns. So does the addition of the model 12 at the end of the paragraph page 12 of the Rules intend to include the "civilian or military style" language. Also, do the rules preclude modifying either a standard model 97 or 12 into a replica trench gun, or does the language "original or replica" include shooter made replicas of "military style." Now as a newly minted RO, I am not going to start checking model 12 serial numbers to see if a gun is an original trench gun, but I had thought of making a replica myself as a project.

Interesting: So an Original or clone Model 97 trench gun would be legal, but a 97 riot gun modified to be a "faithful replica" Trench Gun is not? Now that I look back at the rules, it could also be read that an original Model 12 trench gun might not be legal since the phrase "military style" is in a sentence that only applies to the 97. Maybe we could use a rules clarification on this.

My mistake. I was looking at the tiny photo on my cell phone and thought I was looking at a trench gun.

The Model 12 Trench gun ( with the heat shield and bayonet lug) was used by the Army and USMC in WWI and by the USMC in WWII. Winchester definitely made them that way. A Model 12 Trench gun made an appearance at our recent State WB match. I did a quick research of the rules and found nothing making it illegal. If I missed it let me know as I have a model 12 that I am considering converting to a Trench gun.

I've seen many stages where you move between two groups of 3 shotgun targets, but none have required " staging the gun. A few, where the the stage rules allowed guns to be used in any order, would have permitted it, not I have not seen anyone do it. I thought about doing it once, putting the shotgun down to shoot the pistol targets and then picking it back up to shoot the final 3 shotgun, but the risk of losing the shotgun shell off the carrier was too high.

I use a 17 pound Wilson spring in my Springfield.

I would add porting ( enlarging the ejection port-- legal in traditional) to the list.

Short answer is that we don't have access to the range other weekends. Our range is on a working ranch and cattle are present. Also other clubs in the area would object to us shooting on "their" weekends.

Looking at the Pro Steel rules, not sure they would work for us. We have no berms. between stages, and therefore have no dropping or knockdown targets that can't be reset by pulling a rope Anyone going forward of the firing line requires shutting all the posses down. On another note, I put a question on the SASS Facebook page asking if other clubs were having PCC shoots and the page monitor posted a response telling me to look elsewhere, and then locked responses.

Dusty, we have been allowing .22s on both Cowboy and Wild Bunch since Spring. A few of the Cowboy shooters use them. Those of us with .22 1911s probably don't have 5 mags for them ( I have 4 for mine). No one much complains about shotgun ammo for WB. We generally shoot about the same number as the Cowboy shooters (20+), and actually shoot fewer rifle than the Cowboys. The new Club President is willing to let me design the stages, and I can limit 3 of them to 3 mags with one big stage of 4 or 5. We historically have had one stage with no shotgun and one with no rifle, so that would not be a change. I willgive some thought to allowing the sub .40 rifles, although a lot of our cowboy shooters shoot .44 or .45 ( I shoot .38-40, but I'm an eccentric. ) and those who shoot the slicked up .38s like it was full auto would not be interested in WB ( they are the guys who think 10 yards is much too far for rifle targets.) The biggest complaints I hear ( besides the ammo / primer and powder shortage) are too many misses (target distance) and too many Ps ( complicated scenarios). And we have serious difference of opinion on both those subjects.

Following on to my earlier posting, I am interested in any suggestions on how increase interest in WB shooting, either within the existing club membership, or by attracting new shooters. Our club is the only club in the area that has offered Wild Bunch on a regular basis (a couple allow Cowboy 1911) and it is on life support. A few weekends we have only had 3-4 WB shooters in a club that prefers posses of 15 or more. The prevailing opinion on the b clug board is that if we cant increase the interest in WB, we will basically shut it down or limit it to an occasional twice a year off weekend match. Admittedly this was an off year across the board with COVID, ammunition/component shortages. Only a couple of new members in the club and more attrition than that. And Wild Bunch ammo expenditure and lost brass is higher than for folks shooting CAS. We can reduce the number of rounds per stage (we currently shoot 4-5 mags per stage -- we can drop that to 3-4), simplify the stage instructions to reduce the number of Ps, and shorten the distances to generate more clean stages/matches. But at what point do we lose the essence of WB? I've thought of making changes to make WB more interesting and less repetitious. I've though of throwing in an optional Fastest 1911/Fastest shotgun side match between the 2nd and 3rd stages (after folks are warmed up but before they get tired.) I've considered adding Doughboy and/or Teddy Roosevelt as categories during the stages. I'm open to other ideas, suggestions.

Well, I have a PCC (CZ EVO Skorpion) but I don't have a handgun (or holster) that would qualify. There is enough hostility to Wild Bunch in my club that I doubt I could get them interested in Pro Steel. Never even heard of it before you mentioned it.

Don't know of any local CAS clubs doing any sort of PCC. Closest would be about 5 hours away.

Dusty, thanks for the idea. That might be an option. I will run it up the proverbial flagpole.

What model Krag is it. The vast majority of Carbines were model 1896 or 1899. Only a comparative handful of 1898 carbines were made. If it was 1899, then it is definitely a carbine as there were no model 1899 rifles. https://gun-data.com/krag_rifles_carbines.html

Shotgun is an open item (at least how they pitched it o to me as I am on the cub board (or will be come January 1.) I doubt they will allow trench guns or model 12s (which are what I shoot). Probably will limit shotgun to 4 targets, but whether they will allow the1897 shooters to load 4 is open to debate (my guess not, and single loading shotguns is one of the things I am not fond of in Cowboy shooting..) One of my concerns is that the Cowboy 1911 will not be decent practice for the state Wild Bunch match. Also, I prefer the quasi military orientation of WB (most of our WB shooters are retired officers, like me.) The cowboy side is just a pure speed match, with frankly no atmosphere.