Flying W Ramrod

9 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

FWR - you are missing my point.  The rule that needs clarification and expanding is the "Safe for Restaging" Stage Disqualification rule on page 22 of the current manual.

It reads:

(SDQ is earned for the following conditions:)

THAT statement says a SDQ would be earned with a restaged-for-further-use shotgun being "Open, with a round in the magazine or on the carrier but not in the chamber" (since the action is not closed, and hammer is not down)

The rule in SDQ definitions list on page 22 needs to be expanded to include the "Action open, no round in chamber" situation.

The rule you pointed out is in the Shotgun Range Operations section, on page 13,  The two rules are "out of step" with each other.  One on page 13, other on page 22.

good luck, GJ

Good call. The ROC is looking for places like this so they can align the rules. Again, good call.

31 minutes ago, Garrison Joe said:

And, while writing this, I think we have a difference between what the rules call for, and what is generally considered safe to do.

That would be, matches I have shot in have always considered it proper to restage a shotgun for further use if it is open and empty including magazine.  The rule quoted above ignores this condition, and by ignoring it, implies that restaging the shotgun open and empty of any rounds, should earn a SDQ as well.     This may be something that needs to be clarified in the next rules revision.

From a physical safety concern, there would be no possible danger from "restaging for further use" an open and empty shotgun.  In fact, the rules specifically REQUIRE initial staging of an open and empty shotgun if the stage instructions call for no-rounds-loaded in shotgun at the start of stage.

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

Please note the entire rule: "Safe to leave the shooters hands.
– NO LIVE round in the chamber, action cycled, and muzzle safely downrange.
– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed (restaged for further use)"

This means you have two choices. First, you can leave it Open, with a round in the magazine or on the carrier but not in the chamber. or Closed with the hammer down on an empty chamber or expended round, for future use. Your choice.  Note it does not say "No Live round in chamber, magazine or on carrier.

A while back, I saw a rule that all pistol rounds must come from a magazine. This precluded using a single, loose, round inserted directly into the chamber.

I can't find this rule anymore.

Was it removed, and if so, when?

Regards

On 8/22/2022 at 8:33 AM, C.N. Double said:

Is that the same weekend as the AZ BP match? I can't seem to find any info on the 2023 AZ WBAS match.

Week later.

The BP match is Feb 10-13. AZ State is Feb 18-19. Fire and Ice is Feb 25-26. EOT WB Feb 27-28. EOT Mar 1-5.

On 6/27/2022 at 4:54 AM, J. Frank Norfleet said:

 

 

 

Maybe this will help, I wrote:

"I understand wrap around grips, thumb rests, target style (finger grooves etc) and mag release cut. I thought I understood the statement, "but no material may extend beyond the original profile of the grip." Then this year a "clarification" was added, "Grips that are thinner at one end or the other but have a straight taper are allowed." What is being clarified? What does material extended beyond the grip profile have to do with a mag release cut? What are we looking for?"

Happy Jack replied:

"The statement about straight taper was added as there are now some grips being offered with a "palm swell" which was determined to not be allowed."

JFN

Tha's the Ambassador page. Are there any clarifications, rule changes, etc on that page that should be made public?

Heck, as an WBAS RO Instructor, I can't even see that page.

As far as the "super scoop" mag release cut out is concerned, is there a max cutout for the mag release cutout? If so, where is it listed?

Regards

The Granite Mountain Outlaws, in Chino Valley AZ, will be hosting their first Wild Bunch match on Saturday August 6th. First several matches we will be offering an Open category to help folks participate, even if they don't have all of the required guns. Directions on the Outlaws or Compass training center websites. Stages will be on the Outlaws website.

Granite Mountain Outlaws

On 5/29/2022 at 6:29 PM, Shamrock Sadie said:

What is the ammo count?

I'll check with Zona

33 minutes ago, Tully Mars said:

Have them go back to slide lock, and correctly go through the unloading procedure, or it's a SDQ. 

Tully

Yep, that's what I do, just thought I'd mention it to this venue for folks to notice.

It's happening more and more.

When asked, a shooter told me it's to decrease the wear and tear on the hammer sear.

Don't reckon that's a legitimate concern otherwise they wouldn't be shooting the gun.

2 hours ago, Tully Mars said:

As much as I appreciate the kind words, it's the shooters that make the match. Unfortunately I was distracted and missed some of the best parts of the shoot. Next time around I'll not be a posse leader, just the MD and a shooter, lesson learned.

Gold Country Wild Bunch's BoD, worked very hard to come up with unique stages, cook food, and keep folks happy. We have no idea if everyone went away happy, but those that have reached out seem pleased by the shoot! We'll take that as a WIN!

GCWB moved away from the rifle only stages of 2021, but that will return, as well more stages allowing make up shots. It's great to watch Silvertip, FJT, Molly Magoo and others burn down a stage without missing, but it was more rewarding watching a shooter turn a 29 second stage shot by one of the top shooters into a 180 second clean stage, and walk away with a great big grin!

It's taken me along time to realize how demoralizing 10-20 misses on a stage could be, yet how uplifting that same stage could be to a shooter if we can find away for them to shoot it clean! I've personally fought against moving in this direction, I've always felt that folks should learn their gun, now where it shoots, and not make excuse's for their misses. Well? Maybe I'm getting old or seeing the light? But the smiles of folks that shot those two stages clean, was well worth it! Many would have walked away with double digit misses had they not had the opportunity to correct it.

SASS or the ROC may have deferring views of what GCWB is doing, but the above responses say otherwise. The next state WB match I run, the goal will be.....I'll keep that a secret for now 🙂

Tully

 

Like your approach to the misses thing. This years Territorial match was a miss festival. I had 26 and took fifth in Sr. Mod. A gal shooter, won't say her name, had 70 misses and took 5th is Ladies Senior.

I've talked to several, more than 8, who say they won't be shooting the Territorial again unless something changes. Last years match was as bad, and a long time shooter told me those type of matches, there, are the standard, which is probably why there were only 42 shooters for the Western Territorial Championship.

Hope you keep up on the "fewer misses, the better" aspect.

See you on the trail.

Lately I've noticed, some shooters, at the end of the stage, are not pulling the trigger and allowing the hammer to drop unimpeded to show clear.

They're holding the hammer, pulling the trigger and lowering the hammer to rest.

This is not dropping the hammer as required in the SHB Pg 9 "HAMMER DOWN: While the pistol is pointed in a safe direction pull the trigger allowing the hammer to drop, unimpeded."

We need to keep an eye on this.

Regards

Nice stages. Good job Brother

We use E6000 glue

3 hours ago, J. Frank Norfleet said:

Sure wish this was a 10 stage 2 day match.

JFN

AZ State match at Cowtown. Two weeks before EOT.

Lots of great stages and shooters. Great EOT warm-up

Now six stages.

5 hours ago, C.N. Double said:

I'm happy to help if I can, but that's not quite what I said. Misty has been extremely helpful and responsive during the transition, and I'll assist where permitted.

You da man. 

Have you had a chance to talk to your club about an WBRO Class yet?

We're heading to the mid-west for June to shoot Prince of Pistoleers, and Montrose Colorado for the Colorado State Cowboy and Wild Bunch matches.

We'll be back the first of July.  Have the class the Saturday of the WB Match, and I can stay and shoot it.

Regards

C.N. Double is the person to contact regarding the Forum page.

At least he says so 😄

Not with the painted dots.

Traditional 1911 modifications are listed on pages 6 & 7 of the Shooters Handbook.

Regards

I can see that rounds 6 and 7 are considered "illegally acquired" ammo. Which causes the P, for an overloaded mag being used to complete the required string, and the two misses. Wonder if he would have shot five, dropped the mag and went back to a five round mag to finish. As Artie Johnson would say "verrrrry interesting"

With the 2022 rules change. it's a penalty for use of the illegal ammunition, no misses.

In this case he didn't fire two legal rounds , so 2 misses for the legal ammunition that was unfired in the last magazine. Procedural and 2 misses.

 

Synopsis of 2022 rules changes:

https://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/handbooks/Synopsis%20of%202022%20RULE%20CHANGES%202022-01-09.pdf

 

6. Overloading

Overloading the rifle, shotgun or a pistol magazine will warrant a procedural penalty for any

overloaded or illegally acquired ammunition that is shot. However, if a shooter, for whatever

 

Tully

Which rounds were "illegal"? The first two, the middle two, the two unfired? If they were not used in the completion of the sweep, they are not misses. It is a procedural only for loading 7 rounds instead of 5.

And who the heck uses 5 round mags anymore, anyway?

 

reason, shoots more rounds than required by the stage description, no misses will be assessed

for the excess ammunition shot. For scoring the stage, it will be considered that overloaded or

illegally acquired rounds were not shot. Any targets missed before these extra rounds were

fired will still be misses.

 

Tully

Ten of the best, most fun, stages I've ever shot. All targets, very hitable, if you use your sights.

One stage had 35 knockdown targets that could be made up. Rifle was optional and no shotgun. We wanted to shoot it again, and again.

Top marks to Serenity for the stages, and all the crew for a great EOT Wild Bunch match.

FJT, I, for one, am glad you weren't there. I moved up a place in the standings :D

See you at EOT, my friend .

So, you're only going to bring the exact number of rounds?

Figure 5 mags per stage as the max, I know some will be less, some more.

Figure 10 rounds of rifle per stage, again some will be less.

Figure 6 rounds of shotgun per stage, yes again some may be less.

Then you get 350, 100, 60. And that's with no reshoots.

Yes, you might go home with some unspent rounds but why should that matter, at least you've got enough to shoot the main match.

As for side matches, figure out how many times you want to shoot speed this or that and do the match.

It's not rocket surgery.

If the shooter calls a squib by himself, and the CRO says "if you think so, lay it down" and there is no squib, is it a resort?

I know if the CRO says squib and directs the shooter to lay it down, it's a resort, but what if the shooter calls it?

Actual scenario.

When a shooter overloads a firearm, Wild Bunch follows the Cowboy guidelines with one exception.  In Wild Bunch, there is no penalty for leaving a live round in a firearm UNLESS it is in the chamber.

Therefore the Cowboy procedure below applies EXCEPT #5

 

COWBOY:

Overloading the rifle

Overloading a rifle on a stage is not a safety issue. The safety comes into play if the shooter

has any rounds left in the rifle after he/she has fired the rifle and committed to the next gun.

Then, and only then, a safety shall be issued if a live round is left anywhere in the rifle.

Should the shooter realize that they have loaded too many rounds and safely ejects those

rounds, it’s a no call.

Should the shooter fire more rounds than called for in the stage, it would be a “P” (edited)

- Hipshot SASS #7 

 

What’s the Call?

Application of related existing rules/penalties

- PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS #2495 (edited 2020)

 

Stage calls for 9 rounds in the rifle. Shooter loads 10 rounds at the loading table: 

 

1. Shooter shoots 9 rounds and ejects the 10th round…safely restages rifle “open & empty”.

NO CALL – NO MSV penalty for overloading – Rifle is considered “safe to leave shooter’s

hands”. 

2. Shooter kicks out the first round and then shoots the next 9 rounds.

“P” + miss (use of “illegally acquired” ammunition)

 

3. Shooter shoots 5 rounds, then kicks one out, and then shoots the next 4 rounds. 

“P” + miss (use of “illegally acquired” ammunition)

 

4. Shooter shoots 9 rounds, then fires the 10

th

round to clear the rifle.

“P” for firing more rounds than required for the stage (whether a target is hit or not)

 

5. Shooter shoots 9 rounds then puts down open rifle and then shoots the next gun.

MSV for an unfired round remaining in long gun action or magazine - DOES NOT APPLY IN WB.

 

WTC:  In this case the call is a P + 3 misses + the shooter incurs the extra time taken for the extra rounds shot.

The, Cowboy, rule is P for illegally acquired ammo, and no misses. The missis only occur if you use the illegally acquired ammo to complete the rifle string.

Shotgun scenario

Engage 4 knock down targets, any order.

As shot:

Knock down 1 and 2, hit but not knock down 3rd, eject live 4th round, reload and hit number 3, knocking it down.

Staged ended with targets 1, 2, 3, down, target 4 standing.

Call please and point the rule to me.

Thanks