What the heck is the call?

[August West]

We shot a stage yesterday that had 12 knock down targets, and many stationary plates.  At the beginning of the stage, the shooter was required to engage eight of them (K-Ds) with Shotgun, choosing from among the twelve (i.e. 'shooter's choice').  Then, later in the stage, the shooter was required to engage the remaining four knock-down targets (the four that were still standing), and stationary plates during the Pistol string.

 

Several shooters, when using their Pistol, made the "mistake" of engaging one of the downed targets, which had already been engaged with the shotgun.  Parenthetically, each shooter who did this actually hit the plate of the downed K-D.

 

We are aware that target placement could be adjusted to have avoided this problem in the first place.  Hind sight is 20/20.

 

However, all of our brain power could not come to a decision about the correct call.  We are assuming that all twelve knock-down targets were P-SG targets throughout the stage -- they definitely were at the start.  Also, since the downed plate was actually hit by the pistol round in each case, we assumed there was not a miss at this point in the stage -- unless the identity of the target was changed by virtue of having engaged it with a another firearm type.

 

Some of the "entertainment" that followed the stage included:

 

1. A Procedural Penalty should be assigned when a reactive target is re-engaged

 

2. A Procedural Penalty should be assign when the 'wrong' target was engaged -- i.e. One that was NOT still standing.

 

3. A Procedural Penalty should be assigned when the Course of Fire could not be completed because of the mistake early in the Pistol String.

 

4. A Miss should be called because the shooter came up one round short at the end of the Course of Fire for the Pistol String.

 

5. A Miss should be called because the shooter engaged a target of the 'incorrect type' -- this assumes that the identity of the K-D became a Shotgun Target once it was engaged by the Shotgun and, therefore, was the 'incorrect type' when the shooter got to it with the Pistol

 

After a long discussion, involving all of the shooters on the posse, we decided to ask for help. 

 

Help!

 

A.W.

 

 

 

[Garrison Joe]

#4 covers the shooter mistake, I believe.

 

Since there was no order on the knockdowns, any KD that was standing during the pistol string could be hit in any order.  KDs that are already down are no longer a target, as I understand the rules.

 

Shooting any Knockdown that is a legal target for your pistol - but is already down - is a miss.  It does not matter if you "hit" the plate that is down, you shot at a target that has already been knocked down.    Score a miss for every pistol target on the stage that the shooter did not get hit because they used the shot on a knocked down target instead. 

 

Your stage setup made all 12 knock-downs a "combination" shotgun and pistol target.  But once it is down, it cannot be shot again without earning a miss.  It is no longer a target at all once down!

 

So, if shooter shot pistol at one downed KD target (and thus did not hit one of the stationary pistol targets), it's "one miss"  And that miss cannot cause a P.  Regardless of whether a shotgun or a pistol round put the KD down originally.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Tully Mars]

Hey August West,

Sounds to me like the targets were close together and it was just a miss. At the end there should have been one KD still standing for the missed one, correct?

Tully

[Elwood James]

Just had this type of scenario come up in discussion.  The shooter earns a procedural (Pg 19) for:  Shooting (and hitting) targets in an order other than as required by stage description (in this case targets that were already down).  Next, Following the miss flow chart, it takes you down to no further call.  This would mean no 5 sec penalty for additional rounds shot from legally acquired ammunition.  The only additional time penalty is what the shooter incurred from the additional shots.  Now if the shooter had missed the target that was already down, there would have been no procedural and no miss—only time spent engaging wrong target. 

 

The above assumes the shooter kept shooting and hit the 4 knock down targets they were suppose to shoot.  If they left some standing because they did not reload and engage (or missed) , they get a miss for each one left standing.  The only caveat I would add; you have to be sure the shooter was engaging the wrong targets—otherwise it is just a miss.. 

 

Addendum, Another time this comes into play:  shooter has a malfunction and looses count on the stage.  Ends up  shooting more rounds than required.  Assuming a target is hit, the same procedural rule and flow chart rules above applies.  Additional time used shooting the additional rounds is the only other time assessed. 

 

Hope this helps, 

 

Respectfully,

Elwood James

[August West]

Hey August West,

Sounds to me like the targets were close together and it was just a miss. At the end there should have been one KD still standing for the missed one, correct?

Tully

 

Correct in essence.  For some, at the end were stationary targets, depending on the order they chose to shoot targets in.  Thanks Pard.  We were really lost this time!

[Garrison Joe]

I got to thinking more about this, and the re-engaged knockdown-already-down from the OP needs to be called just like they would be called if you had a full stage worth of knockdowns. 

 

For example - a stage has seven knockdowns for pistol, shooter's choice of order.  Seven rounds to fire at them.  Shooter engages 1, 2, 2 again while down, 3, 4, 5, 6.  7 is still standing.  It would be called a miss at any match I've been to, whether the shooter hit or missed the #2 target's tipped over plate on the third shot.  We see this a lot at EOT when old KD targets that only fall over to a 45 degree angle are used, and shooter doesn't recognize that the target is down already after the first shot, and think (wrongly) they still need to shoot that target. 

 

Another example - 6 4 knockdowns for shotgun, in any order.  6 4 rounds to fire.  Shooter engages 1, 2, 2 again while down, 3.  4 is still standing.  This is also called "just a miss" for target 4 at any match that I have shot in. 

 

I think folks are trying to make this much more complicated than we want the rules to be!

 

Thanks, GJ

[Blackfoot]

I got to thinking more about this, and the re-engaged knockdown-already-down from the OP needs to be called just like they would be called if you had a full stage worth of knockdowns. 

 

For example - a stage has seven knockdowns for pistol, shooter's choice of order.  Seven rounds to fire at them.  Shooter engages 1, 2, 2 again while down, 3, 4, 5, 6.  7 is still standing.  It would be called a miss at any match I've been to, whether the shooter hit or missed the #2 target's tipped over plate on the third shot.  We see this a lot at EOT when old KD targets that only fall over to a 45 degree angle are used, and shooter doesn't recognize that the target is down already after the first shot, and think (wrongly) they still need to shoot that target. 

 

Another example - 6 knockdowns for shotgun, in any order.  6 rounds to fire.  Shooter engages 1, 2, 2 again while down, 3.  4 is still standing.  This is also called "just a miss" for target 4 at any match that I have shot in. 

 

I think folks are trying to make this much more complicated than we want the rules to be!

 

Thanks, GJ

 

Blackfoot

[Kid Rich]

If you shoot the wrong type of target such as a rifle or shotgun target with the pistol it is a miss. If you you shoot ten of them it would be ten misses, no p's involved.

kR