Chronograph

[Jorge]

At any of the recent "bigger shoots," especially Land Run or End of Trail, were ammo samples tested for Power Factor?  

Just curious.

[Flying W Ramrod]

Not at EOT for rifle (classic) or pistol

[Garrison Joe]

Murphy says, "when you think they won't test PF, they will"   good luck, GJ

[El Chapo]

I sure wish we had a procedure in the rules.  

[Flying W Ramrod]

It's in the WBAS SHB, pg 31

53 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

I sure wish we had a procedure in the rules.  

 

Edited March 24 by Flying W Ramrod

[Ranger Dan]

SE Regional at Memphis Gunslingers had it set up on side match day. Not mandatory, but I had mine done to be sure.

[El Chapo]

22 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

It's in the WBAS SHB, pg 31

I guess I never really considered that to be an actual chronograph procedure because 1) it is not required at any level of match and 2) it doesn't really include any safeguards to ensure the equipment is reliable or even the testing is reliable.  Which is probably why I have never seen a chrono at any SASS competition.  An effective test procedure requires that scales and chronos be calibrated and usually multiple units are used to ensure accuracy.  Nobody wants to ruin a major match for someone based on faulty information.

I did pucker a little bit when my ammo only went 127 at my most recent match though.  Chronoed 134 at home, and 133 out of another 9mm on Friday, only to barely make it on Saturday.  I bet I won't do that again.  That was with calibrated scales, two radar based chronographs, and a longer barrel!

[Flying W Ramrod]

30 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

I guess I never really considered that to be an actual chronograph procedure because 1) it is not required at any level of match and 2) it doesn't really include any safeguards to ensure the equipment is reliable or even the testing is reliable.  Which is probably why I have never seen a chrono at any SASS competition.  An effective test procedure requires that scales and chronos be calibrated and usually multiple units are used to ensure accuracy.  Nobody wants to ruin a major match for someone based on faulty information.

I did pucker a little bit when my ammo only went 127 at my most recent match though.  Chronoed 134 at home, and 133 out of another 9mm on Friday, only to barely make it on Saturday.  I bet I won't do that again.  That was with calibrated scales, two radar based chronographs, and a longer barrel!

It's used when there is an appearance of PF failure.

At the old WR, it was used every day, every year. 

Random shooter, one or two per posse, had to submit ammo in ziplocks to be tested.

Happened the same way at the older 4 Corners Regionals.

Happened, for cause, at a 4 corners regional as well. Shooter had to change ammo. PF was so low it wasn't cycling his 1911.

[Boggus Deal]

What was really bad was when SASS sold ammo that didn’t meet power factor when it was tested..

[Garrison Joe]

Every EOT WB held at Founders Ranch had random rifle and pistol ammo from "random" shooters pulled and tested for meeting the +150 PF level.  I know from personal experience as I attended all of those matches.  And usually there were weight checks and functioning safeties tested.  Some of those I conducted or supervised.  Even if no thumb safety application is practiced at any WB match I've been in.   good luck, GJ

[Old Man Graybeard]

I have seen safety checks and ammo pulled and some tested. I don't have a problem with that being done...and it probably should be done...along with weighing pistols. 

I think that really at checkin...pistols should be weighed and the grip safety checked. During the match...random samples of ammo pulled and at least some of it checked.

[Kid Rich]

In the past I have done the testing and weighing of 1911's and chronographing of ammo at WR.

kR

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

A few years back, this year's EoT Overall WB winner, German shooter HellHound, was DQd, after the factory ammo that he bought here in the states was found to be just under PF.

Sigh.

FJT

[Jorge]

Yes, chonographing the ammo seemed to have more importance "in the old days."

[El Chapo]

On 3/24/2026 at 8:42 PM, Flying W Ramrod said:

It's used when there is an appearance of PF failure.

At the old WR, it was used every day, every year. 

Random shooter, one or two per posse, had to submit ammo in ziplocks to be tested.

Happened the same way at the older 4 Corners Regionals.

Happened, for cause, at a 4 corners regional as well. Shooter had to change ammo. PF was so low it wasn't cycling his 1911.

Doing it like that seems tremendously unfair and to send the wrong message.

If it can't be done with calibrated equipment and for everyone, it shouldn't be done at all.

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, El Chapo said:

Doing it like that seems tremendously unfair and to send the wrong message.

If it can't be done with calibrated equipment and for everyone, it shouldn't be done at all.

There was a bay where the equipment was set up for anyone to test their loads. That was the day before WB started.

Some folks took advantage of the opportunity, some didn't.

It's impractical to check 150+ shooters ammo, at five rounds each, and still complete the match.

There is no more MDQ for scoring purposes so, once challenged and found lacking, it's a SDQ for any stage, after that, the ammo is used, and a MDQ for the second stage used. 

 

[Boggus Deal]

3 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

There was a bay where the equipment was set up for anyone to test their loads. That was the day before WB started.

Some folks took advantage of the opportunity, some didn't.

It's impractical to check 150+ shooters ammo, at five rounds each, and still complete the match.

There is no more MDQ for scoring purposes so, once challenged and found lacking, it's a SDQ for any stage, after that, the ammo is used, and a MDQ for the second stage used. 

 

No, it’s not impractical. Other shooting sports tests everyone’s ammo. Not hard to do at all.

[Flying W Ramrod]

3 hours ago, Boggus Deal said:

No, it’s not impractical. Other shooting sports tests everyone’s ammo. Not hard to do at all.

How many bays? How many volunteers? When do they test?

Want to volunteer to help, or just bitch

[Boggus Deal]

One bay. 2 volunteers. In between 2 stages somewhere in the match.

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Boggus Deal said:

One bay. 2 volunteers. In between 2 stages somewhere in the match.

How many competitors and, knowing how WB at WR/EOT/Landrun is held, any way to do that at these matches?

And, I guess you'd have to hope the ammo brought for testing is the same used during the match. Remember there's a reason for the smoke factor.

I'd like to see PF testing and, at the same time and bay, weight and safety checks. Especially the safety checks. Match Directors are setting themselves up for liability by not ensuring the safeties are functioning properly. i.e. Your Honor, why did they assume the safeties were functional.

[Boggus Deal]

All USPSA matches are tested and there are several hundred shooters. For example, testing is on stage 4. As shooters finish stage 3, they go test. It’s recorded. They go to stage 5. Match officials check PF for major and minor levels and if a shooter doesn’t meet, they face consequences. 
Shooter gets to the test area, official asks for a magazine off the body and tests. May be first mag maybe third mag. 
I prefer knockdowns that require a certain level of PF. Yes, it’s hard to keep them calibrated. Yes, it’s a lot of work for a match staff. 

[Flying W Ramrod]

5 hours ago, Boggus Deal said:

All USPSA matches are tested and there are several hundred shooters. For example, testing is on stage 4. As shooters finish stage 3, they go test. It’s recorded. They go to stage 5. Match officials check PF for major and minor levels and if a shooter doesn’t meet, they face consequences. 
Shooter gets to the test area, official asks for a magazine off the body and tests. May be first mag maybe third mag. 
I prefer knockdowns that require a certain level of PF. Yes, it’s hard to keep them calibrated. Yes, it’s a lot of work for a match staff. 

Great idea. Get a bay, that's not being used, turn it into check bay. Shooters come off the previous bay, check in at test bay, weigh, check safeties, do PF test, move on.

I like it.

Now, to get the Powers That Be, involved.

Thanks for the ideas.

 

[El Chapo]

On 4/1/2026 at 1:51 PM, Flying W Ramrod said:

Great idea. Get a bay, that's not being used, turn it into check bay. Shooters come off the previous bay, check in at test bay, weigh, check safeties, do PF test, move on.

I like it.

Now, to get the Powers That Be, involved.

Thanks for the ideas.

 

In USPSA, your gun will be weighed, it has to fit in a box, and the thumb safety has to work.  After that, 3 rounds are fired over TWO chronographs, the velocities multiplied by your bullet weight from the round they pull a bullet from, and the power factor is calculated by taking the average and truncating any decimal.

If you don't make power factor, they fire three more rounds and average again.

If you still don't make power factor, the last of the 8 rounds collected from you, you're given an option.  They can pull the bullet and re-calculate the power factor based on that bullet's weight or they can fire it and re-average your numbers and see if you make it.

If you don't make major, you're scored minor.

If you go sub minor, you shoot for no score.

If your gun is overweight or doesn't fit in the official dimensioned box, you get bumped to the Open division, or if it's not offered at that match, you shoot for no score.

If your thumb safety doesn't work, that gun is out of the match unless you can fix it.  If you have another one and the rangemaster says okay, you shoot that gun.  Both the old and new gun have to be chroned if it's safe to fire, but you won't be allowed to holster the gun with the broken thumb safety again.

If you refuse or miss chrono somehow, you shoot for no score.

And perhaps most importantly of all, if the chrono breaks, fails calibration, or is otherwise unavailable, everyone who was chronoed when the equipment was working gets the results they got, and everyone else gets their declared power factor regardless of the fact that they can't chrono.  I've never seen or heard of that happening.

The last major match I was at, a guy came all the way from Canada to shoot for no score because his safeties were about .010" too wide to fit in the box.

I also shot one years ago where one guy loaded for the whole squad (posse) and all of them went minor, and it wasn't even close, 150-155 when the pf for major is 165.

And as Bogus said, chrono is a stage.  Everyone has to chrono when it's their time at that stage.  Usually it goes quickly so it's nice if it's at lunch time, you'll get a longer break before the squad ahead of you gets done shooting.  They also don't have to let you use the 8 rounds you gave them, they can ask for a mag off your belt anytime they want.

This is recommended at all state level competitions and required at all regional and national level matches.

This procedure isn't perfect but I've never seen someone get screwed by it.  Although I barely made it at my last match--I won't go that close again.  I'm not one to fly too close to the sun.

Edited 3 hours ago by El Chapo

[Boggus Deal]

6 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

 

And as Bogus said, chrono is a stage.  

It’s Boggus, with two gs!! 🤪🤪🤪