Reloading Titewad and Tuned Main Springs

[JJ]

Hi All -

Been reloading for close to 40 years and have a question concerning shotgun loads.

First question (buried in here somewhere):

Have quite a few pounds of Titewad left. The loads used in my past have been with 15.2gns (Titewad) and a 3/4oz lead load using Claybuster 3/4oz wads. These rounds are starting now to hurt after my shoulder is being slammed with the 6 rounds of WB Shooting. So I loaded some 3/4oz loads with 14.7gns of Titewad and got a velocity of 1105fps on the chrono. My goal to get a load to under 1000fps. I have bushings for my MEC 9000 that will drop 12.6gns and 11.6gns of Titewad. My question(s) centers around this: Other than using the chronograph to determine velocity how does a back yard reloader determine the pressure of these small loads? I guess I don't wish to get a load that shoots lower that is dangerous. How is that determined or am I just a 'worry wart'??

Second Question (again buried in here somewhere):

A number of years ago swapped out my tuned main springs on my two Uberti 73 WInchesters with coil main springs. Over the past year the coil springs have started to fail. The springs have been replaced along the way over those years, however have noticed that new springs ordered seem to start failing in just a few months. Have added washers to the coil springs to make them work, but it just isn't working like the old days. Last winter, while at EoT and friend of mine schooled me on grinding out and polishing flat springs. One of the Winchesters was was refitted with a 'tuned flat spring' and just like the old days, it has given me 'zero' problems. This morning swapped out the second rifle from coil to flat main spring. I have three guns that have flat springs. Two 38/357 rifles and a 45LC rifle. The 45LC rifle came with a tuned flat spring. I measured the trigger pull on all three this morning. The two 38's have have trigger pulls of 1lb 10oz and 2lb 6oz. The tricked out 45 has a pull of 2lb 5oz. 

The 1lb 10oz rifle easily sets off Winchester Primers. Have not tested the other 38 to see if it sets off the Winchester Primers (it's cold outside right now). The 45LC uses only Federal Primers with no issue. 

Finally the second question. It is easy to determine the trigger pull. Now is there ANY correlation between the trigger pull stiffness and the force of the hammer striking the firing pin??? Don't think there is a real answer to that question, so that's why asking others that are much smarter and proficient and this than I ever hope to be.

Thanks for reading all.  Merry Christmas to all of you and a Happy New Year. 

J.J. 

[Garrison Joe]

4 hours ago, JJ said:

It is easy to determine the trigger pull. Now is there ANY correlation between the trigger pull stiffness and the force of the hammer striking the firing pin???

There is no correlation between trigger pull and the hammer impact force.  IF the sear and the full-cock notch have a nice tuned fit.  The force on hammer fall comes from the MAINSPRING strength and the weight of the hammer.  Now, you probably don't want to change out to a different weight hammer.  So you will be concerned with the force applied by MAINSPRING.   A stronger mainspring, and you get more hammer strike force.  Not linear and exact relationship, but that's the way it works.  Why does the trigger pull force have nothing to do?  Because the sear notch on the hammer is in the same place REGARDLESS of how much force you set the trigger up with.  Since the hammer fall starts in the same place (when sear clears the full cock notch), and the mainspring works on the hammer through the same amount of rotation, all that matters is how strong that mainspring is (and how smooth the hammer pin and side walls of the hammer slot in the frame are, to eliminate any friction).   A heavy spring on the trigger or sear only adds to the force you have to apply to the trigger.   The trigger does not transfer any of the trigger pull force to the hammer.

 

4 hours ago, JJ said:

Other than using the chronograph to determine velocity how does a back yard reloader determine the pressure of these small loads? I guess I don't wish to get a load that shoots lower that is dangerous.

You use the chrono and lower the powder charge (MAYBE 1 GRAIN STEPS) until you get your desired velocity.  Once there, you fire 25 or 50 rounds in practice sessions to make sure you get a working discharge of both shot and wad EVERY TIME.  Using a double barrel, load two rounds, fire them, then look from the chambers down the barrel to make sure everything cleared the barrel.    Pump gun testing would be harder to do (use a cleaning rod to punch out the barrel) and tell you nothing extra about the function of the shells.  

If you start getting sunken crimps due to the lower charge weights, you may have to find a taller wad or put less pressure on wad seating or lower the level of the crimp die settings.  Or use a more bulky powder.   Clays was a great powder for light shotshells for cowboy shooting.  Titewad and Titegroup are less satisfying because they are not as bulky and can give you fits with the "stack height" that supports the crimp petals and prevents sunken (leaky) crimps.

good luck, GJ

 

Edited Monday at 10:40 PM by Garrison Joe

[JJ]

Mr. GJ -

Thank you for the answers to both of my questions. 

Concerning the Mainspring question, I knew the trigger pull was the same as you stated. I wasn’t sure about changing the mainspring out to a stiffer one if that would change the hammer striking power. It makes sense that it would. At this point, I am satisfied with the mainsprings I re-ground and have tested in my two 38 rifles. So far they seem to work well. The person that showed me how to grind down mainsprings knew what he was talking about and I was glad he shared some of his knowledge with me. . 

Your response to the shotgun reloading question was very informative. Hadn’t thought about your response to testing/chroning the lighter loads with a double. With the lighter loads I now use and the even lighter loads I have loaded, I place a 1/2” square piece of heavy weight bond paper on top of the shot. For whatever reason it holds the crimp from sinking. I have a good supply of Clays left, however saving that for cowboy rifle/pistol reloading. When the Titewad runs out will start on an 8 pound bottle of Winchester AA Lite powder I managed to obtain. After that is gone - Perfect Pattern. I have called Hodgdon and talked to their reloading folks about reloading shells way lower than their published loads. They were not very helpful. Suspect it was a company liability issue. 

For myself (and perhaps others), the answers you respond back with to my ‘somewhat’ goofy questions make an excellent reference. 

Thank you again for your help.

Sincerely - J.J.

[Ranger Dan]

Just for reference, I have been loading and shooting Titewad 12gr, with 7/8 oz for the past year has been excellent. Since I ran out and can't find Titewad, switched to Perfect Pattern. Also now using 12gr under 7/8 oz and it is very close recoil wise. My wife hasn't even noticed a difference since I changed powders. I did have to raise the wad seating a little to keep the crimp level as PP is less bulky and uses a smaller bushing to get the 12 gr load. Hope this helps.

[Eyesa]

Not the same powder,but due to Ellie's shoulder I've settled on 11gr. of RedDot under 3/4oz of #8 shot using Clay buster 3/4 oz pink wads. Minimal recoil and the targets fall. I used them in an antique last fall and they worked well for me too and were quite light on the old shotgun! Ellie's been running them for 2 years now without any issues. I used 11.5gr of Clays for a short while before the RedDot, also with no issue.

[Garrison Joe]

10 hours ago, JJ said:

. I have called Hodgdon and talked to their reloading folks about reloading shells way lower than their published loads. They were not very helpful. Suspect it was a company liability issue. 

Hodgdon publishes data for shotshells that they believe meet their own reliability of performance standards.  The soft end of those are are heavier loads than what many cowboy shooters use.  Hodgdon is not "your huckleberry" with making cowboy loads either for shotshells or pistol cartridges.  They just don't want to get into the testing that we (maybe 2%) of the shooting pubic might need for what used to be called "gallery loads".   So, other cowboys' experience is about the best you can count on.  What we "need" falls below the velocity (and recoil) of almost any commercial usage - even target loads.  When no factory loads that way, why would Hodgdon stick out their neck and recommend them?

good luck, GJ

[El Chapo]

I doubt you'll have problems loading Titewad that light.  A friend of mine loads for his 8 year old Buckaroo son, his loads are something like 9 grains of WST with 3/4 oz of shot and the pink wad.  They are crazy light and will knock down the popper if he kid gets a good hit. 11-12 grains of Titewad will almost certainly do the job if you want light.  They might even be lighter than 1000 fps.  If your current loads are 1100, a grain lighter than that will probably achieve what you're looking for, 2 grains almost certainly so.

Certainly there is a modest change in trigger pull from a lighter mainspring in a 1911 and that would generally translate to other guns.  It's far less than changing the geometry of the sear/hammer relationship, but lighter springs for a lighter trigger pull are par for the course for almost any gun.  The key when I do it is to go no lighter than 100% reliability allows for.  Outside of CAS/WBAS, I don't like guns addicted to federal primers, so I don't run the lightest possible springs for guns that aren't manually operated like we use in these games.

Edited Wednesday at 04:32 PM by El Chapo

[Garrison Joe]

6 hours ago, El Chapo said:

Certainly there is a modest change in trigger pull from a lighter mainspring in a 1911 and that would generally translate to other guns.

Nope.  Not "certain" at all.  With a proper sear to hammer cock notch fit, the 1911 hammer does not move any appreciable amount as the trigger is pulled.  If the hammer does not move back, the mainspring does not compress any farther.  Therefore, no compression of the mainspring means no extra force is applied to the trigger during trigger pull by the mainspring.  Just the force which is applied to the trigger by the leaf of the sear spring which is resting against the trigger saddle.    Browning really knew what he was doing when he designed the 1911.  It allows the 1911 trigger to be tuned to 3.5 pounds of pull - and that is needed mainly to prevent the gun from doubling or firing when dropped. 

The 1911 pistol is a single-action design.  Pulling the trigger does not cock the hammer.  The hammer is cocked by the slide moving backwards during firing or racking a round in from a new magazine.

Badly tuned hammers/sears that have a lot of positive angle to the full-cock-notch engagement WILL have a trigger pull that stacks (increases) as the trigger is pulled, and THAT stacking does get worse and more detectable with a real strong mainspring.  But, a REAL strong mainspring is not needed for our 150 power factor loads anyway - most guns are well behaved with a mainspring at about 19 pounds of spring weight.   And a recoil spring at about 15 pounds.

good luck, GJ

Edited Wednesday at 10:49 PM by Garrison Joe

[El Chapo]

3 minutes ago, Garrison Joe said:

Nope.  Not "certain" at all.  With a proper sear to hammer cock notch fit, the 1911 hammer does not move any appreciable amount as the trigger is pulled.  If the hammer does not move back, the mainspring does not compress any farther.  Therefore, no compression of the mainspring means no extra force is applied to the trigger during trigger pull by the mainspring.  Just the force which is applied to the trigger by the leaf of the sear spring which is resting against the trigger saddle.    Browning really knew what he was doing when he designed the 1911.  It allows the 1911 trigger to be tuned to 3.5 pounds of pull - and that is needed mainly to prevent the gun from doubling or firing when dropped.  good luck, GJ

 

The hammer's pressure on the sear is created by the mainspring.  The friction between the sear and hammer is a function of a small amount of pressure from the sear spring and much more pressure from the hammer hooks on the sear.  Lowering the energy stored in the mainspring absolutely reduces the amount of force it takes to trip the sear, as it's simple physics, less force from the mainspring = less friction, all else equal. 

You can observe this by installing a lighter mainspring in your gun and testing the trigger pull with a simple scale, which will confirm what I'm saying here for absolute certain.  You will observe a lighter trigger pull with a lighter mainspring every time.

Also, your claims about the underlying physics are not correct.  The force on those surfaces is not only the sear spring, as the force of them mainspring, pushing up through the hammer strut to the hammer, supplies additional force between the sear and the hammer hooks.  The sear spring is not the only source of force for that friction, in fact, it's minor compared to the comparatively massive energy stored in the mainspring.  I don't know what a "trigger saddle" is either, but if you're talking about the trigger bow, the leaf of the sear spring that holds the sear has nothing really to do with that; the disconnector leg pushes the trigger bow forward when the shooter releases the trigger.

Your claim about the hammer not moving when the trigger is pulled is also partially true, that depends on the sear/hammer relationship, and depending on the angle they meet, the trigger absolutely can move the trigger rearward when the trigger is pulled.  Obviously that is not an ideal hammer and sear relationship, but depending on the angle of the hammer/sear junction, the sear can push the hammer backward further when the trigger is pulled if that angle is not cut correctly.

3.5 pounds is also about double what serious competitors are using.  If a lighter trigger than that is desired, trigger pulls under 2 pounds are easily achieved, assuming the parts are fit correctly.  I consider 3.5 pounds to be pretty heavy for a gun used in competition; the gun I shot two matches with last weekend is a 2.5 and many people prefer them lighter than that.

[Garrison Joe]

i know of none of the custom 1911 smiths who will tune a gun to a 2# trigger pull.  Especially for use in an action sport (rather than a bullseye gun).  GJ

[El Chapo]

5 hours ago, Garrison Joe said:

i know of none of the custom 1911 smiths who will tune a gun to a 2# trigger pull.  Especially for use in an action sport (rather than a bullseye gun).  GJ

In that case, you must not know any custom 1911 smiths used by any serious competitive shooter, because I can give you a laundry list of people who do so, and literally everyone who is winning (and probably everyone within the top 10-20) the Open/Limited/Limited Optics/Limited 10 nationals is using a gun with a 2 pound or less trigger from one of those people.  In IDPA, the winners in the Carry Optics and ESP divisions are doing the same.  Unless your "action" sport is something besides USPSA, IPSC, Steel Challenge, IDPA, and maybe some I'm forgetting, literally everyone who is winning is shooting something you didn't know existed until you made these posts in this thread.  And many are using 15 pound mainsprings because they want the absolute lightest trigger, and the only way to get that is with perfect sear geometry, the right sear spring tuning, and the lightest mainspring their primers will tolerate.  Maybe it was different 50 years ago or something, but these sports are incredibly competitive, and the winners will do anything to win, including using trigger pulls lighter than the gun that is in their hand, among other minor equipment advantages to have every competitive edge.  And there is nothing wrong with that, as if the guns are kept clean, a 2 pound trigger is absolutely reliable in a 19/2011, it just needs to be in the hand of someone responsible enough to keep it that way.