Reloading Titewad and Tuned Main Springs

[JJ]

Hi All -

Been reloading for close to 40 years and have a question concerning shotgun loads.

First question (buried in here somewhere):

Have quite a few pounds of Titewad left. The loads used in my past have been with 15.2gns (Titewad) and a 3/4oz lead load using Claybuster 3/4oz wads. These rounds are starting now to hurt after my shoulder is being slammed with the 6 rounds of WB Shooting. So I loaded some 3/4oz loads with 14.7gns of Titewad and got a velocity of 1105fps on the chrono. My goal to get a load to under 1000fps. I have bushings for my MEC 9000 that will drop 12.6gns and 11.6gns of Titewad. My question(s) centers around this: Other than using the chronograph to determine velocity how does a back yard reloader determine the pressure of these small loads? I guess I don't wish to get a load that shoots lower that is dangerous. How is that determined or am I just a 'worry wart'??

Second Question (again buried in here somewhere):

A number of years ago swapped out my tuned main springs on my two Uberti 73 WInchesters with coil main springs. Over the past year the coil springs have started to fail. The springs have been replaced along the way over those years, however have noticed that new springs ordered seem to start failing in just a few months. Have added washers to the coil springs to make them work, but it just isn't working like the old days. Last winter, while at EoT and friend of mine schooled me on grinding out and polishing flat springs. One of the Winchesters was was refitted with a 'tuned flat spring' and just like the old days, it has given me 'zero' problems. This morning swapped out the second rifle from coil to flat main spring. I have three guns that have flat springs. Two 38/357 rifles and a 45LC rifle. The 45LC rifle came with a tuned flat spring. I measured the trigger pull on all three this morning. The two 38's have have trigger pulls of 1lb 10oz and 2lb 6oz. The tricked out 45 has a pull of 2lb 5oz. 

The 1lb 10oz rifle easily sets off Winchester Primers. Have not tested the other 38 to see if it sets off the Winchester Primers (it's cold outside right now). The 45LC uses only Federal Primers with no issue. 

Finally the second question. It is easy to determine the trigger pull. Now is there ANY correlation between the trigger pull stiffness and the force of the hammer striking the firing pin??? Don't think there is a real answer to that question, so that's why asking others that are much smarter and proficient and this than I ever hope to be.

Thanks for reading all.  Merry Christmas to all of you and a Happy New Year. 

J.J. 

[Garrison Joe]

4 hours ago, JJ said:

It is easy to determine the trigger pull. Now is there ANY correlation between the trigger pull stiffness and the force of the hammer striking the firing pin???

There is no correlation between trigger pull and the hammer impact force.  IF the sear and the full-cock notch have a nice tuned fit.  The force on hammer fall comes from the MAINSPRING strength and the weight of the hammer.  Now, you probably don't want to change out to a different weight hammer.  So you will be concerned with the force applied by MAINSPRING.   A stronger mainspring, and you get more hammer strike force.  Not linear and exact relationship, but that's the way it works.  Why does the trigger pull force have nothing to do?  Because the sear notch on the hammer is in the same place REGARDLESS of how much force you set the trigger up with.  Since the hammer fall starts in the same place (when sear clears the full cock notch), and the mainspring works on the hammer through the same amount of rotation, all that matters is how strong that mainspring is (and how smooth the hammer pin and side walls of the hammer slot in the frame are, to eliminate any friction).   A heavy spring on the trigger or sear only adds to the force you have to apply to the trigger.   The trigger does not transfer any of the trigger pull force to the hammer.

 

4 hours ago, JJ said:

Other than using the chronograph to determine velocity how does a back yard reloader determine the pressure of these small loads? I guess I don't wish to get a load that shoots lower that is dangerous.

You use the chrono and lower the powder charge (MAYBE 1 GRAIN STEPS) until you get your desired velocity.  Once there, you fire 25 or 50 rounds in practice sessions to make sure you get a working discharge of both shot and wad EVERY TIME.  Using a double barrel, load two rounds, fire them, then look from the chambers down the barrel to make sure everything cleared the barrel.    Pump gun testing would be harder to do (use a cleaning rod to punch out the barrel) and tell you nothing extra about the function of the shells.  

If you start getting sunken crimps due to the lower charge weights, you may have to find a taller wad or put less pressure on wad seating or lower the level of the crimp die settings.  Or use a more bulky powder.   Clays was a great powder for light shotshells for cowboy shooting.  Titewad and Titegroup are less satisfying because they are not as bulky and can give you fits with the "stack height" that supports the crimp petals and prevents sunken (leaky) crimps.

good luck, GJ

 

Edited Monday at 10:40 PM by Garrison Joe

[JJ]

Mr. GJ -

Thank you for the answers to both of my questions. 

Concerning the Mainspring question, I knew the trigger pull was the same as you stated. I wasn’t sure about changing the mainspring out to a stiffer one if that would change the hammer striking power. It makes sense that it would. At this point, I am satisfied with the mainsprings I re-ground and have tested in my two 38 rifles. So far they seem to work well. The person that showed me how to grind down mainsprings knew what he was talking about and I was glad he shared some of his knowledge with me. . 

Your response to the shotgun reloading question was very informative. Hadn’t thought about your response to testing/chroning the lighter loads with a double. With the lighter loads I now use and the even lighter loads I have loaded, I place a 1/2” square piece of heavy weight bond paper on top of the shot. For whatever reason it holds the crimp from sinking. I have a good supply of Clays left, however saving that for cowboy rifle/pistol reloading. When the Titewad runs out will start on an 8 pound bottle of Winchester AA Lite powder I managed to obtain. After that is gone - Perfect Pattern. I have called Hodgdon and talked to their reloading folks about reloading shells way lower than their published loads. They were not very helpful. Suspect it was a company liability issue. 

For myself (and perhaps others), the answers you respond back with to my ‘somewhat’ goofy questions make an excellent reference. 

Thank you again for your help.

Sincerely - J.J.

[Ranger Dan]

Just for reference, I have been loading and shooting Titewad 12gr, with 7/8 oz for the past year has been excellent. Since I ran out and can't find Titewad, switched to Perfect Pattern. Also now using 12gr under 7/8 oz and it is very close recoil wise. My wife hasn't even noticed a difference since I changed powders. I did have to raise the wad seating a little to keep the crimp level as PP is less bulky and uses a smaller bushing to get the 12 gr load. Hope this helps.

[Eyesa]

Not the same powder,but due to Ellie's shoulder I've settled on 11gr. of RedDot under 3/4oz of #8 shot using Clay buster 3/4 oz pink wads. Minimal recoil and the targets fall. I used them in an antique last fall and they worked well for me too and were quite light on the old shotgun! Ellie's been running them for 2 years now without any issues. I used 11.5gr of Clays for a short while before the RedDot, also with no issue.

[Garrison Joe]

10 hours ago, JJ said:

. I have called Hodgdon and talked to their reloading folks about reloading shells way lower than their published loads. They were not very helpful. Suspect it was a company liability issue. 

Hodgdon publishes data for shotshells that they believe meet their own reliability of performance standards.  The soft end of those are are heavier loads than what many cowboy shooters use.  Hodgdon is not "your huckleberry" with making cowboy loads either for shotshells or pistol cartridges.  They just don't want to get into the testing that we (maybe 2%) of the shooting pubic might need for what used to be called "gallery loads".   So, other cowboys' experience is about the best you can count on.  What we "need" falls below the velocity (and recoil) of almost any commercial usage - even target loads.  When no factory loads that way, why would Hodgdon stick out their neck and recommend them?

good luck, GJ