Is SASS Wild Bunch Action Shooting really Cowboy Action Shooting with a 1911?

[wyliefox]

Is SASS Wild Bunch Action Shooting really Cowboy Action Shooting with a 1911?

My introduction to the 1911 was with my local SASS clubs, High Plains Drifters and ROOP.  I was new to SASS and was really enjoying the change from IDPA.  My local clubs arranged to have Sutter Lawman teach a local Wild Bunch RO class.  This was 10+ years ago.  I recall him stating several times that WB is NOT Cowboy with a 1911.  Towards the end of the course, he mentioned that he was working with the WB Committee for a rule change.  Currently the WB magazines were limited to holding only FIVE rounds.  Evidently when WB started it was a side match using the stages from Cowboy, therefore five rounds to match Cowboy stage descriptions.  Hmmm, sounds like Cowboy with a 1911 to me? Soon after the WB Committee did change the round count from five to the current seven.  Ah, I am thinking, breaking away from Cowboy **.

Ok, enough of the history lesson.

Two years ago, SASS was very concerned about the profitability of Wild Bunch.  There were many opinions, as far as I am concerned it does not matter.  There was/is a goal to increase participation, GREAT!!!! 

My thoughts.  Retain the WB Category structure of several years ago and create a new category, “Open”.  In Open category any caliber 1911 is allowed.  Any Cowboy rifle and shotgun are allowed (including Model 12).  Power factor of 150 for both pistols and rifle.  What???  Yes, 150.  38’s (.357) are available at 158+ grains and higher which keeps speed below 1000 fps, also 9 mm at 160 grains (Bear Creek & Bayou).  This keeps with the concept that Wild Bunch is NOT Cowboy with a 1911.  For those shooters that want to shoot their 105 grain 38 SPL, I say this is "Wild Bunch, NOT Cowboy with a 1911" **.

What another category???   Noooooo you say!!  OK then using the above suggestion for power factor allow 9mm and any legal cowboy long gun in the Modern Category.  Return Traditional to the way it was several years ago, 40 caliber and higher, pump shotgun.

Still not convinced, very sad I say **.  At least LEAVE Traditional alone as it is NOT Cowboy with a 1911.  You want Cowboy with a 1911 then mess with Modern.

My suggestions do not EXCLUDE anyone and retains some history of SASS Wild Bunch Action Shooting.

** BTW from slide #4 of the WBAS course:

However, there are distinct differences between the 2 disciplines, and it is important to remember that WBAS was not developed to be, nor is it to be presented as “CAS with a 1911”.

 

[El Chapo]

I don't really understand the obsession with the 150 power factor for rifles.  It is not appreciably harder to shoot a 150 pf rifle than it is to shoot one with cowboy loads.  If we're serious about power factor, it should be 170 or even 180 for the pistols and just leave the rifles alone.  A 45 doesn't run well at 150 and everyone already knows there is no chrono and no chrono procedure as it is, so it would just invite rampant cheating.

150 pf for 9mm does not require 160 grain bullets either, there's factory 147 grain loads doing well beyond that already and I could easily boost my basic 147 lead loads that I'm shooting to achieve 1020 fps.  They're already going ~950 as it is because even a 9mm doesn't run that great at 125 pf unless it has a pretty light slide.

I would completely agree that IF we are going to do an open category, it should allow any caliber 1911.  I would take it a step further and it should allow any wood stock pump shotgun as well.  Another thing I'd really like to see, which sadly I doubt I will ever see, is being allowed to use modern magazines with plastic basepads.  I am not sure what we are achieving by banning the magazines virtually everyone else is using in their 1911s, but I would really like to lose the leather basepads and just use my normal magazine, even if they won't let me use my magwell.

Maybe they should make a "classic" or "heavy metal" division for the purists.  I might even join them, I have nothing against what they're trying to achieve other than that I think they are focused on the wrong thing.

 

If we want to make Wild Bunch competitive with other shooting disciplines, the most meaningful changes that need to happen are that we need to have loaded starts, loaded movement, and stop banning common modern equipment like magazines.  Those changes alone would make WBAS into a dynamic shooting sport that would completely sever it from those who want it to be cowboy with a 1911.  Both loaded starts and loaded movement were permitted at Bordertown this year and it was an absolute blast.  They called it "Historic 3 gun" rules.  I call it "every other handgun sport on earth."  But either way, those are the big changes that need to happen for this to become a dynamic shooting sport: loaded starts and loaded movement.  Loading your gun is not a sport.  Timing people loading their gun is not a competition; it's dangerous.

[Totes Magoats]

I'm curious how many folks have actually lightened their pistol loads.  My guess, is some but not most.  Granted, some new WB shooters may be starting with a lighter load as I've seen some new folks have 1911 cycling issues.

IMHO, Rifle is not the gun that determines matches.  For me, I'd bet my .38 rifle and .45 rifle are only a few tenths different in a 10 shot string.

I have yet to see a SxS at any WB matches I have shot since the change.

Are Power Factor rule changes actually making any measurable difference in the game?  I honestly don't know.

The rule changes don't seem to prevent anyone from participating the exact same way they did before the change.  Is it the position on the scoresheet that has folks upset?

Shooting my .38 rifle sure didn't raise me up on any scoresheets, but it makes reloading for my wife and I easier and cheaper.

Totes

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Totes Magoats said:

I'm curious how many folks have actually lightened their pistol loads.  My guess, is some but not most.  Granted, some new WB shooters may be starting with a lighter load as I've seen some new folks have 1911 cycling issues.

IMHO, Rifle is not the gun that determines matches.  For me, I'd bet my .38 rifle and .45 rifle are only a few tenths different in a 10 shot string.

I have yet to see a SxS at any WB matches I have shot since the change.

Are Power Factor rule changes actually making any measurable difference in the game?  I honestly don't know.

The rule changes don't seem to prevent anyone from participating the exact same way they did before the change.  Is it the position on the scoresheet that has folks upset?

Shooting my .38 rifle sure didn't raise me up on any scoresheets, but it makes reloading for my wife and I easier and cheaper.

Totes

And, that's the reason for the change. Gets more folks shooting.

[Artemus]

The concern for the powerfactor is more about the timers. Wild Bunch stage writing has a leg up in that previously we could shoot stages ending on the rifle. In wide open stages/ranges it has been found to be inconsistent timer pick up of rifle shots, especially as we see .38 rifles with a lower report than .22s. 

A consistent PF also makes use of KD targets easier for a MD to calibrate. I would say that moving rifle targets back makes low PF self correcting, but we are in a thread about Cowboy with 1911.

 

[El Chapo]

On 11/9/2025 at 9:00 AM, Artemus said:

The concern for the powerfactor is more about the timers. Wild Bunch stage writing has a leg up in that previously we could shoot stages ending on the rifle. In wide open stages/ranges it has been found to be inconsistent timer pick up of rifle shots, especially as we see .38 rifles with a lower report than .22s. 

A consistent PF also makes use of KD targets easier for a MD to calibrate. I would say that moving rifle targets back makes low PF self correcting, but we are in a thread about Cowboy with 1911.

 

We need chrono stages and a chrono procedure in the rulebook before any of that matters.

[Happy Jack]

The chrono procedures and guidelines as well as other info on weighing bullets etc. WAS in the Older MD guides. I know I wrote them. 

[Marshal JW Stone]

In my view we should keep traditional with the 45 ACP 1911 and the 40 plus caliber rifle and not move it down to the 83 cal rifle and or the 9mm 1911 pistol.

The lighter power factor reduces recoil and presents an unfair advantage against the traditional 45 ACP or Colt and its power factor. 

I agree we need to bring more participants over to wild bunch and I would rather see us allow the 38 rifle and the 9mm 1911 as part of the modern category.  This would allow new shooters to get their feet wet in the sport and decide if they want to move over to traditional.

We don't need more categories we just need to keep traditional as such, allowing the new commers that don't have the 45 1911 nor the 40 cal rifle to enter through the  modern category.

Once they get the flavor they will want to move up to the bigger bore.

[El Chapo]

21 hours ago, Marshal JW Stone said:

In my view we should keep traditional with the 45 ACP 1911 and the 40 plus caliber rifle and not move it down to the 83 cal rifle and or the 9mm 1911 pistol.

The lighter power factor reduces recoil and presents an unfair advantage against the traditional 45 ACP or Colt and its power factor. 

I agree we need to bring more participants over to wild bunch and I would rather see us allow the 38 rifle and the 9mm 1911 as part of the modern category.  This would allow new shooters to get their feet wet in the sport and decide if they want to move over to traditional.

We don't need more categories we just need to keep traditional as such, allowing the new commers that don't have the 45 1911 nor the 40 cal rifle to enter through the  modern category.

Once they get the flavor they will want to move up to the bigger bore.

The traditional 45 ACP is 195 power factor.  Can we require that?

FWIW: modern is not the "entry" to traditional.  I will not be shooting traditional and I have no interest in it, primarily because I don't want to shoot with 1 hand, be banned from having a beavertail, and so on.  But if I can shoot a 9mm 1911 in modern, I would be thrilled about that, just so I don't have to load another cartridge for WBAS vs. all my other handgun shooting sports.

Edited 10 hours ago by El Chapo

[Happy Jack]

The power factor for 45ACP is 165    IDPA, USPSA, and IPSC.    It has been that for 40+ years in IPSC and from the beginning in USPSA and IDPA.

[El Chapo]

1 hour ago, Happy Jack said:

The power factor for 45ACP is 165    IDPA, USPSA, and IPSC.    It has been that for 40+ years in IPSC and from the beginning in USPSA and IDPA.

Major power factor is 165 now in USPSA and IDPA but it wasn't always.  The power factor was changed from 175 to 165 a while back (the internet says that occurred in 2000, hardly 40 years ago).  IPSC doesn't have one power factor for everything and it isn't 165, it's 170 except for open, where it's 160 (except for divisions that are minor only, where there is no major).  So if you thought the 165 was set in stone, it's far from that.

So, I propose to all of you who want higher power factor for rifles: why not 195 for the 1911?  Factory military ammunition has been 230 grains @ 850 for at least 100 years, aka, a pf of 195.  5 grains of bullseye and a 230 grain bullet was the standard even for our grandfathers.  So why not?  If we're obsessed with power factor, why not shoot what Browning and God intended?

Edited 8 hours ago by El Chapo

[Jim Miller]

We don't need more categories we just need to keep traditional as such, allowing the new commers that don't have the 45 1911 nor the 40 cal rifle to enter through the  modern category.

Once they get the flavor they will want to move up to the bigger bore.

Please talk to your WBTG